314 stopping short

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ukrob

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Yes alright, but in this case I am not led to belive this applied, therefore is not relevent!

So lets stop speculating - we have reached the facts - and that is that we know hardly any!
If you don't know the facts you are not in a position to say " I am not led to belive this applied, therefore is not relevent!" ;)

My point is that 20 years ago it may have been common for a train to stop with no platform (for example, if the train was longer than usual), but it is no longer the done thing, certainly in the UK. People expect a platform to be there, and it is not unreasonable to expect it meaning a person with a visual impairment should not have to double check that there is platform outside the door when it automatically opens :)
 
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Jim

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If you don't know the facts you are not in a position to say " I am not led to belive this applied, therefore is not relevent!" ;)

My point is that 20 years ago it may have been common for a train to stop with no platform (for example, if the train was longer than usual), but it is no longer the done thing, certainly in the UK. People expect a platform to be there, and it is not unreasonable to expect it meaning a person with a visual impairment should not have to double check that there is platform outside the door when it automatically opens :)
Ok, but there is still no reason to speculate the facts though is there, that the drivers job may be on the line, and there is just loads of what is to be quite frank drivel, about something that is not for us to decide!
 

ukrob

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Ok, but there is still no reason to speculate the facts though is there, that the drivers job may be on the line, and there is just loads of what is to be quite frank drivel, about something that is not for us to decide!
I was under the impression that the topic had turned into a sensible discussion debating how different DOO systems work from region to region, how passengers do not have all the facts to make decisions about driving methods, and discussion about how it is easy to get into routines whether rightly or wrongly with examples which had nothing to do with the incident - but then you joined in with a rant and called people stupid.

If the thread is 'drivel' to you then maybe find another more to your taste?
 

O L Leigh

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The rules governing all aspects of railway operation are the same across the entire country and network. As a driver of DOO passenger services, I really can't believe that they do things any differently north of the border to how they are done in and around London. Therefore the discussion surrounding despatch methods is nullified. It is either done in a certain way or it's not compliant.

That aside, Jim is not wrong. There could be serious consequences for the driver of this specific service as a result of our discussions, as I hinted right the way back at the start of this thread. I personally don't have a problem discussing such matters as general issues, and nor do I especially mind people reporting clear-cut safety breaches to the relevant operator, but I do object to reference being made to specific services on a publicly accessible forum. We should be a little more careful about what we post online, as those of us who work in the rail industry know that management are watching and reading what is being said. I have personal experience of this, so I know where the safe limits are with regard to what can safely be disclosed and what should remain private.

O L Leigh
 

Lesjordans

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You should do it officially or not at all
Not at all is probably best! It was a mistake - we all make them and i'm sure he realised and won't do it again! I would hate to see a thread on a retail forum for every mistake i've made at work!
 

ukrob

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Not at all is probably best! It was a mistake - we all make them and i'm sure he realised and won't do it again! I would hate to see a thread on a retail forum for every mistake i've made at work!
But I assume your job isn't safety critical and you don't endanger peoples safety? That is the difference. For the record I don't think the service should have been named that this incident happened on.
 

bluenoxid

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My last post was playing devils advocate.

Sadly, you have made the worst mistake. Instead of reporting the post and cutting the discussion off at its core you have along with a number of others (including myself) extended it to a five page essay drivel, which is more likely to be read by management.

Whilst you can jump up and down about the serious consequences of this discussion to the users, the forum is led by its moderating team. That is who you need to pick your bone with and who can, for example, edit the original post to remove the details.

Hm, perhaps I should take those pills again.

This isn't a dig. Even I am hitting my head that I didn't think that.
 

me123

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Just to clarify, are you saying that the correct procedure is for the driver to stand up, open his local door, check the train is fully platformed and THEN open the passenger doors? And despite all these safeguards the driver still opened the passenger doors when the train was not at the platform?

Routine can simply not be blamed for that, it is either a monumental error on the drivers part or some form of mechanical failure with the door system.
AIUI, this is the case. The route really needs updated, but the continual life extension of the 314s seem to preclude this. The DOO isn't great. The route may get monitors next year if some 320s are moving over, but the 314s will be in action until 2015.

I wasn't aware that Cl314's didn't have local door buttons.

I'm surprised that there aren't at least "Car Stop" boards at the relevant places along the platforms so that the driver knows that the entire train will be in the platform before releasing the doors. This is what we have on our routes irrespective of the method of despatch.

There would be no need to check that the train would be completely in the platform, as DOO monitors should be in the correct place along the platform to line up with the train anyway. If the driver can see in the monitors and there is still a coach hanging out the back, then it's the monitors that are in the wrong place.
The Cathcart Circle, as I've mentioned above, doesn't have the monitors. It may do at some places, but on the whole it doesn't. Seriously, it needs an upgrade! As mentioned above, it will get them by 2015, perhaps as early as next year depending on what happens to the class 320s. It does/should have "car stop" boards, but at Pollockshields they could well have been stolen...
 

Mojo

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If it doesn't have any monitors; then I'm sure there must either be dispatch staff on every platform (unlikely), mirrors or the driver 'looking back' along the train - having seen those three methods in operation, I have never seen the driver open the cab door in the way that a guard would open the 'local' door to check the train is correctly platformed.

I understand that on non-DOO services, guards are supposed to open the local door, check the train is correctly platformed and then open the rest of the doors, however I have seen many cases that it would be impossible for the guard to see that the train is in the proper location - I guess in these cases they would either have a 'landmark' on the platform or just trust that the driver has got it right.

Is there a chance, however that there may be some form of 'local instruction' for certain stations meaning the driver has to do this? On the Cross-City line in Birmingham there is a green line painted on the platform; if this is visible by the guard then he knows the train is correctly platformed and can open all the doors at once rather than the slow procedure elsewhere.
 

313103

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If this line really is as bad as some people are indicating, how did a method of DOO get agreed in the first place? Surely safety systems that are common with DOO should be in place, whether they be station staff dispatch, driver self dispatch (without mirrors, monitors or in cab cctv video screens, driver self dispatch (with mirrors/monitors or in cab cctv video screens)
As OL Leigh has already mentioned DOO method of working is the same if you are in Penzance or Wick
 

rail-britain

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Could anyone tell me if that train is booked as a six car train? I'm fairly certain it was only three cars, which makes the most obvious reason of a 6 car train stopping at the 3 car stop unlikely...
This is normally a 6 car train Monday to Friday, during school term
BTP usually travel on this as well (see below, as sometimes they can only cover Crosshill)
It is normally held at Queens Park as long as possible, the station staff at Crosshill then advise when their platform is full and closed by BTP
The BTP at Crosshill then also board the train
It's an awful journey if you accidently end up on it (during a school day)!
 

me123

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If it doesn't have any monitors; then I'm sure there must either be dispatch staff on every platform (unlikely), mirrors or the driver 'looking back' along the train - having seen those three methods in operation, I have never seen the driver open the cab door in the way that a guard would open the 'local' door to check the train is correctly platformed.
That's what I've seen happening along the line, although they can stock their head out of the window as well. I've seen them do both; could it depend on visibility? I've looked on youtube, but none of the videos actually show the driver checking the doors.

DOO up here is generally quite poor. The only line with monitors is the North Clyde for 320 operation; the rest may or may not have them, as operators can look back on these lines.
 

TDK

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I understand that on non-DOO services, guards are supposed to open the local door, check the train is correctly platformed and then open the rest of the doors, however I have seen many cases that it would be impossible for the guard to see that the train is in the proper location - I guess in these cases they would either have a 'landmark' on the platform or just trust that the driver has got it right.
Not all guards do their job correctly,I had a service where a pass comm wass pulled coming into a station in an 8 car, I gave the guard the relevent bell buzzer code not to open the doors and he opened them anyway saying I didn't give the buzzer code, a quick dowload of the OTMR from my manager prooved I had. These incidents are mistakes and as quoted everyone at somepoint willmake an error for whatever reason.

I am personally not happy with the train and time posted on here and as quoted before things like this really does give enthusiasts a bad name. Only yesterday an entusiast came up to me and TOLD me, yes TOLD me I should switch of the HEP/ETH before shutting down the engine on my loco, Little did he know the ETH was already shut down and the engine was revving for a completely different reason, it was in fact compressor operation on not ETH, so, enthusiasts trying to tell me my job when they have never even driven a train on the mainline is very annoying and makes them look stupid. Sometimes a little knowledge is dangerous. Another incident, enthusiast, why have you stopped 10 feet from the buffers when you supposed to stop 6 feet, my answer, I can stop where I like as long as it is within the rules and regs, that quote a minimum distance of 6 feet from buffers or another train, the reason was that the rear cab, the one I will be driving from if I stop 10 feet from the buffers is in the shade and not in the bright sunshine so it is cooler when I take the train out.
 

AlexS

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If I could make a point regarding my post on the first page - that was referring largely to whether an incident like this should be reported at all in case management find out, rather than covered up or quietly forgotten about.

Not about whether it should be discussed on a web forum, which I haven't taken part in.

If I do something wrong at work I can pretty much guarantee the person I wrong would report me in no time whatsoever. And since I am responsible for people's wellbeing in a different way but no less important one than any train driver - I would say that I very much like to be told when I have done something wrong. My actions won't directly kill someone, but more than one person has done themselves in or come to harm following people in my line of work making mistakes.

The person who assess what I do correctly and incorrectly is my manager and it goes on my record - I have no problem at all with picking up 'points' and if I get more than a given number in one period then I get taken off the job and packaged off for retraining.

Individual incidents ARE important. I do plenty of railway work on the side but my full time job shows me that just as well.
 
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