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319s with Northern

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jfollows

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The 319 on 2H45 10:48 Crewe-Picccadilly was delayed at Handforth yesterday (23/8/2019) (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y62026/2019/08/23/advanced) with a door fault. Of course these can happen on 323s as well, but presumably is more common on the 319s. Door isolated and marked out of use. If the service had been run by GTR presumably the driver would have been instructed to run non-stop to Manchester to make up time, so one thing to be grateful to Northern for is that nothing like this happened. The unit appears to have continued in its diagram all day, which resulted in it stabling at Manchester Airport overnight, so is presumably still out and about today with the door out of use. If so, I think it's currently just left Euxton Balshaw Lane on 1F04 08:04 Blackpool-Liverpool Lime Street (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y60985/2019/08/24/advanced).

Anyway, it does seem that these units are rather "tired", so the latest news that they're to be replaced with a full fleet of 323s is welcome.
 
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Bovverboy

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According to 'Journey Check' there is a 2-car DMU replacing a 319 on the Chat Moss circuit today.

Almost 200 train formation updates showing at 0725!
 

td97

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1Y54 today formed of 156429, doing miracles for timekeeping too
 

NoMorePacers

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If Northern has an EMU shortage, could they not send their 321/322s west when they've become surplus to requirements in West Yorkshire? Unless I'm thinking fancifully.
 

td97

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If Northern has an EMU shortage, could they not send their 321/322s west
No drivers are trained. It should be remedied soon with the 331 introduction. The easiest option would have been leasing more 319s, but that didn't happen.
 

childwallblues

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I have recently (27/08 and 10/09) had occasion to use the 0713 from Broad Green to Lime Street. This is a 319 turn and starts its journey as the 0542 from Wilmslow. On the dates in question the units were 156441 and 142038. On arrival at Lime Street the unit then works the 0757 all stations to Manhester Victoria.
 

prod_pep

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142011 and 142037 covering for a 319 on today's 1421 Wigan North Western - Liverpool Lime Street.
 

js1000

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142011 and 142037 covering for a 319 on today's 1421 Wigan North Western - Liverpool Lime Street.
I'd wager a bet that unreliability is the primary reason (aside from inability to 'strengthen' peak services as doubles and poorer acceleration) why Northern are binning the 319s for the surplus 323s. They have become a liability and 150/156s are frequently having to cover for them on electrified routes.
 

Bikeman78

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I'd wager a bet that unreliability is the primary reason (aside from inability to 'strengthen' peak services as doubles and poorer acceleration) why Northern are binning the 319s for the surplus 323s. They have become a liability and 150/156s are frequently having to cover for them on electrified routes.
The 319s have always been somewhat temperamental. I think their MTIN was around 12000 on the Brighton line, worse ironically than the 442s that attracted so much negative press. Doesn't bode well for the 769s.
 

Bovverboy

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Today's 0728 Liverpool - Crewe stopper is going to skip Manchester Airport 'due to overcrowding as this train has fewer coaches than normal'. A two-car Sprinter/Pacer instead of the usual 319? I know that the 0728 is far and away the busiest train of the day between Patricroft/Eccles and Manchester, it's got a reputation for overcrowding even without short-forming. Already 5L by Earlestown, it was 18L by Oxford Road. The ex-Holyhead TfW, which should have been in front of the stopper, but by virtue of being 21L by Earlestown was actually held behind it, finished up 38L by Piccadilly! Yet, according to 'Journey check', there's no short-forming at all today on the Chat Moss circuit!
Still, no traipsing up to the Mayfield loop for the TfW, a quick reverse in P13 and away!
 

PHILIPE

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Today's 0728 Liverpool - Crewe stopper is going to skip Manchester Airport 'due to overcrowding as this train has fewer coaches than normal'. A two-car Sprinter/Pacer instead of the usual 319? I know that the 0728 is far and away the busiest train of the day between Patricroft/Eccles and Manchester, it's got a reputation for overcrowding even without short-forming. Already 5L by Earlestown, it was 18L by Oxford Road. The ex-Holyhead TfW, which should have been in front of the stopper, but by virtue of being 21L by Earlestown was actually held behind it, finished up 38L by Piccadilly! Yet, according to 'Journey check', there's no short-forming at all today on the Chat Moss circuit!
Still, no traipsing up to the Mayfield loop for the TfW, a quick reverse in P13 and away!

Funny route for the ex-Holyhead TFW to use to go to Cardiff:lol::lol:
 

AMD

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Today's 0728 Liverpool - Crewe stopper is going to skip Manchester Airport 'due to overcrowding as this train has fewer coaches than normal'. A two-car Sprinter/Pacer instead of the usual 319? I know that the 0728 is far and away the busiest train of the day between Patricroft/Eccles and Manchester, it's got a reputation for overcrowding even without short-forming. Already 5L by Earlestown, it was 18L by Oxford Road. The ex-Holyhead TfW, which should have been in front of the stopper, but by virtue of being 21L by Earlestown was actually held behind it, finished up 38L by Piccadilly! Yet, according to 'Journey check', there's no short-forming at all today on the Chat Moss circuit!
It wouldn't have shown up as being short formed on national systems as it was formed of 4 coaches (142037+142040), although it terms of capacity it was short as it ran with a capacity of 274 passengers vs the booked 412, which has no doubt caused problems with dwell times.
 

Bovverboy

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It wouldn't have shown up as being short formed on national systems as it was formed of 4 coaches (142037+142040), although it terms of capacity it was short as it ran with a capacity of 274 passengers vs the booked 412, which has no doubt caused problems with dwell times.

Which, of course, shows how meaningless 'Train Formation Updates' can be.

Dwell times of four and a half minutes, three minutes, and four minutes, respectively, at Newton-le-Willows, Patricroft, and Eccles (instead of the half-minute scheduled at each), suggests to me not just slow boarding but passengers actually being left behind. The capacity shortfall of 138 would be greater than is usually taken up at those three stations combined. Fortunately, shall we say, by the time the Crewe departed Eccles the following Victoria stopper would have been only eighteen minutes behind, but I still think the diagram covering the 0728 is one of the worst on the Chat Moss circuit to short-provide.
 

js1000

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Today's 0728 Liverpool - Crewe stopper is going to skip Manchester Airport 'due to overcrowding as this train has fewer coaches than normal'. A two-car Sprinter/Pacer instead of the usual 319? I know that the 0728 is far and away the busiest train of the day between Patricroft/Eccles and Manchester, it's got a reputation for overcrowding even without short-forming.
TfTN ought to question Northern as to why the Crewe-Liverpool stopper is frequently ending up as a 2 carriage DMU. I was willing to overlook over August due to the summer holidays with less passengers and more train crew unavailable as people generally take most of their annual leave around this month but it is clear this is now a regular occurrence.
 

Bovverboy

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TfTN ought to question Northern as to why the Crewe-Liverpool stopper is frequently ending up as a 2 carriage DMU. I was willing to overlook over August due to the summer holidays with less passengers and more train crew unavailable as people generally take most of their annual leave around this month but it is clear this is now a regular occurrence.

It turned out to be a 4-car Pacer (see posts #42&43, above), but that would still have proved hopelessly inadequate.
 

Bovverboy

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I'd wager a bet that unreliability is the primary reason (aside from inability to 'strengthen' peak services as doubles and poorer acceleration) why Northern are binning the 319s for the surplus 323s. They have become a liability and 150/156s are frequently having to cover for them on electrified routes.

As bad as 319s might be, perhaps we ought to remember that they're currently showing a higher availability rate than 195s.
 

Bovverboy

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For an idea of somewhere to not go on a Sunday, try - Blackpool. This is the casualty list for today, Sunday 22/9/19.
Blackpool North to Manchester Victoria service, all fifteen journeys cancelled in advance, as has been the recent norm.
Blackpool North to Manchester Oxford Road or Airport, of the fifteen scheduled journeys, nine cancelled.
Blackpool North to Liverpool Lime Street, of the fifteen scheduled journeys, three cancelled.
Blackpool South to Preston, of the fourteen scheduled journeys, two cancelled. The Preston to Colne section was cancelled completely, in advance.
Blackpool North to Leeds, of the thirteen scheduled journeys, none cancelled!
So of the fifty-eight scheduled departures from Blackpool North, just under half (twenty-seven) were cancelled, but travel to/from Bolton and Manchester looks to have been particularly difficult. Bear in mind that half the Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere services were cancelled south of Preston, too.
 

Grannyjoans

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I can only hope that the Great British Travelling Public knows what a 'unit' is.
I doubt it - I've heard them referring to a 142 as a Locomotive.
I've even heard someone telling their kid that the Pacer is Thomas the Tank Engine as it bounced into Warrington Bank Quay.
 

Bovverboy

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There looks to be a DMU substituting for a 319 on Liverpool - Wigan at the moment. Now that three of the Liverpool - Blackpool diagrams have gone over to 331 operation, that only leaves 21 x 319 diagrams, so if there's still a shortage of one, that implies only 20 available for service, out of 27.
Unless 319372/3/446 have come off lease, of course, but it hasn't been reported that they have.
 

jonesy3001

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There looks to be a DMU substituting for a 319 on Liverpool - Wigan at the moment. Now that three of the Liverpool - Blackpool diagrams have gone over to 331 operation, that only leaves 21 x 319 diagrams, so if there's still a shortage of one, that implies only 20 available for service, out of 27.
Unless 319372/3/446 have come off lease, of course, but it hasn't been reported that they have.
Probably still using them while the 323s go for refurb.
 

156420

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There looks to be a DMU substituting for a 319 on Liverpool - Wigan at the moment. Now that three of the Liverpool - Blackpool diagrams have gone over to 331 operation, that only leaves 21 x 319 diagrams, so if there's still a shortage of one, that implies only 20 available for service, out of 27.
Unless 319372/3/446 have come off lease, of course, but it hasn't been reported that they have.

There will be even less 319’s diagrams from 21st October, with 331’s taking over more Liverpool-Blackpool, Wigan and Liverpool-Crewe-Manchester Picc-Crewe-Liverpool services.

This will almost certainly see 372/373/446 go off lease and maybe even more.
 

Bovverboy

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There will be even less 319’s diagrams from 21st October, with 331’s taking over more Liverpool-Blackpool, Wigan and Liverpool-Crewe-Manchester Picc-Crewe-Liverpool services.

This will almost certainly see 372/373/446 go off lease and maybe even more.

I thought everyone was adamant that 331s wouldn't be doing Chat Moss stoppers. Here's what AMD, for one, said on 5 August.

The west side plan for 331s is Stoke/ Hazel Grove to Blackpool, Manchester Airport to Blackpool, Hadfield and Liverpool to Blackpool. Crewe to Liverpool will be remaining as 319/323.
 

Grannyjoans

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Great news!

Note that the Liverpool-Crewe stoppers are sometimes in the same diagram as Wigan-Liverpools, so if the Wigan stoppers are going to 331 then it makes sense for the Crewe's to do as well
 

Grannyjoans

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There looks to be a DMU substituting for a 319 on Liverpool - Wigan at the moment. Now that three of the Liverpool - Blackpool diagrams have gone over to 331 operation, that only leaves 21 x 319 diagrams, so if there's still a shortage of one, that implies only 20 available for service, out of 27.
Unless 319372/3/446 have come off lease, of course, but it hasn't been reported that they have.

There is still often DMU substitutions on Liverpool-Wigan stoppers. I thought this would end now that there are more EMU's available (Due to the 331's entering service), but obviously it hasn't
 

Bovverboy

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There looks to be a DMU substituting for a 319 on Liverpool - Wigan at the moment. Now that three of the Liverpool - Blackpool diagrams have gone over to 331 operation, that only leaves 21 x 319 diagrams, so if there's still a shortage of one, that implies only 20 available for service, out of 27.
Unless 319372/3/446 have come off lease, of course, but it hasn't been reported that they have.

There is still often DMU substitutions on Liverpool-Wigan stoppers. I thought this would end now that there are more EMU's available (Due to the 331's entering service), but obviously it hasn't

Thinking about it, I suppose that, because there are now fewer 319 diagrams, the 319s will have effectively come down the pecking order. I mean, if there were DMUs awaiting attention, it would make sense to give priority to them, since any DMU fixed would be one fewer train needing to be short-formed. As to the 319s, of the seven unavailable for service, three would be stopped for scheduled maintenance anyway, so that leaves four with what might be called unplanned defects. If people were to rush to get them fixed there would only be available work for one unit anyway, the other three would be sat idle.
I've made the point before, no-one pays Northern to keep spare trains (above those intended to cover scheduled maintenance), so they don't do. From a moralistic viewpoint it might make sense to keep one or two spare, but not from a purely economic viewpoint.
 

Bovverboy

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Note that the Liverpool-Crewe stoppers are sometimes in the same diagram as Wigan-Liverpools, so if the Wigan stoppers are going to 331 then it makes sense for the Crewe's to do as well

I don't think any Wigan - Liverpool journeys have become 331-operated for the sake of it, they've only done so if they've been part of a diagram which includes Blackpools.
A minority of the Chat Moss (Liverpool - Crewe) journeys do interwork with Wigan stoppers, of course, but they don't have to, and in the first year or two of 319 operation they didn't. I'm inclined to suppose that, where they do now interwork, it's for the purpose of getting respective units to finish at the desired location. They could be separated, without incurring any additional diagrams.
 
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