31X's-bound for West Yorkshire?

[pemma]

Merseyrail are looking at dual voltage stock for their hoped/planned service extensions expctd to take place within the replacement rolling stocks lifetime. I'm sure a longer term order for a new fleet can be done if the Valleys order was combined, maybe with the Northern EMU order added in.

There's no mention of dual voltage in the tender that was issued

Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive ("MPTE") is currently considering its options around the replacement of its current fleet of Class 507/508 EMU Rolling Stock. Should it decide to replace the rolling stock following conclusion of its business case process it would be seeking to award a contract for the design, manufacture and supply of in the region of 150-250 third rail electric (750v) vehicles together with spare parts. In connection with the purchase of new vehicles MPTE is also interested to receive proposals relating to the final assembly, testing and commissioning of such vehicles specifically for operation on the Merseyrail Electrics network and for the provision of maintenance facilities appropriate to such vehicles, as well as funding for the purchase of such vehicles by MPTE and the provision of any infrastructure enhancements which would be necessary to facilitate the operation of the new Rolling Stock on the Merseyrail Electrics network

 

[Class377/5]

There's no mention of dual voltage in the tender that was issued

Merseyside Passenger Transport Executive ("MPTE") is currently considering its options around the replacement of its current fleet of Class 507/508 EMU Rolling Stock. Should it decide to replace the rolling stock following conclusion of its business case process it would be seeking to award a contract for the design, manufacture and supply of in the region of 150-250 third rail electric (750v) vehicles together with spare parts. In connection with the purchase of new vehicles MPTE is also interested to receive proposals relating to the final assembly, testing and commissioning of such vehicles specifically for operation on the Merseyrail Electrics network and for the provision of maintenance facilities appropriate to such vehicles, as well as funding for the purchase of such vehicles by MPTE and the provision of any infrastructure enhancements which would be necessary to facilitate the operation of the new Rolling Stock on the Merseyrail Electrics network

Considering all modern 3rd rail is designed to be converted to AC, it's not that much of a big deal. All 37x and 45x/444 fleets can be changed if the need arises.

 

[jopsuk]

A pedant points out:
Class 455 is definitely DC only!

 

[Class377/5]

A pedant points out:
Class 455 is definitely DC only!

Ah yes, I forgot about thoses things (not a fan). Quite right, the 450/x fleet then

 

[tbtc]

To put things in context, the 308s were built in 1961 so over thirty years old by the time they arrived in West Yorkshire (after having a middle coach taken out of them).

The Wharfdale/ Airedale lines showed significant passenger growth which firstly justified new stock in the 333s back in 2001, later extended to four coaches.

So, getting old "London" trains on newly electrified lines in "the North" has precedence...

TBH I've no problem with that, if it means lines get electrified, as the case for new EMUs may be easier to make after passenger numbers have increased.

The Thameslink/ Crossrail programmes will free up a number of EMUs from the London area (no mention of the 332s and 360s yet on this thread?), so we have a "once in a generation" opportunity for old EMUs becoming spare (mainly 315/319s, admittedly, but a 315/319 has got to be better than a Pacer).

However, as we are talking about unknown service provision in unknown franchise boundaries, there's not much point falling out over the specifics.

 

[jopsuk]

and with unknown availability/required date- who knows when the new Thameslink stock will actually be in service, when Crossrail will actually open or when "the north" will actually have the wires switched on?

 

[Class377/5]

and with unknown availability/required date- who knows when the new Thameslink stock will actually be in service, when Crossrail will actually open or when "the north" will actually have the wires switched on?

That's a very good point. Without refurbishing the 319, they won't be free in decent numbers until 2015 at the earliest.

Under the last plan I saw it would make sense for the 319's to be released ahead of the 377's to enable some services to be EMU when the Chat Moss line is electrified in Dec 2014. After the 377's FCC have won't be missed by Southern as the 377/6's will cover that. However if you want to refurish the units then the off lease 317's could be used initially.

 

[150222]

I was joking about Harrogate and the D78's. I don't know why people don't like them. They are nice trains, although I never understood why they have single leaf doors.

 

[pemma]

and with unknown availability/required date- who knows when the new Thameslink stock will actually be in service, when Crossrail will actually open or when "the north" will actually have the wires switched on?

As I pointed out earlier in the thread Northern could utilise a couple of extra EMUs with the existing wires. I imagine they don't want a couple of 317s for various reasons now but if they were told that from May 2014 they will be able to use EMUs on Liverpool-Wigan/Manchester and the 319s won't be ready then they may be interested in taking them on from November 2013, to have a couple of extra EMUs in service and to allow for crews to be trained in to utilise the new OHE from May 2014.

 

[transmanche]

I was joking about Harrogate and the D78's. I don't know why people don't like them. They are nice trains, although I never understood why they have single leaf doors.

Well you hit the nail on the head. The single-leaf doors contribute to their nastiness. I believe that they were designed in a time of falling passenger numbers, so it was though the single leaf door was sufficient. Also each car is longer and narrower than other sub-surface stock (almost 2m longer than the S stock which will replace them) - leading to bigger gaps between train and platform edge .

Thankfully their tube counterparts (1983 stock) have long since been consigned to the scrapyard.

 

[SC318250]

314s & 318s are all due to be replaced in the not too distant future

314s possibly in 5 - 10 years, but 318s have probably got 15 years left in them

 

[tom1649]

I was joking about Harrogate and the D78's. I don't know why people don't like them. They are nice trains, although I never understood why they have single leaf doors.

D78's are lovely trains, even more so now they are refurbished. Compared to C69/77 Stock they are luxury.

 

[Waverley125]

Basically the point I was trying to make has been made-you have a huge number of EMUs off-lease, which could be moved elsewhere (with GWML electrification also going ahead, potentially to Bristol as well).

332s I'd forgotten, though, given that Northern already has the 333s and the 332s will be redundant once Crossrail opens, a refurb to 3+2 seating and a move to Neville Hill would seem a good idea.

 

[sprinterguy]

332s I'd forgotten, though, given that Northern already has the 333s and the 332s will be redundant once Crossrail opens, a refurb to 3+2 seating and a move to Neville Hill would seem a good idea.

That's what I would advocate as well if the 332s are replaced by Crossrail: Enough units to replace the 321s and 322s operating in Yorkshire and to also provide enough trains to operate an electrified Harrogate Circle.

 

[David Goddard]

the 332s will be redundant once Crossrail opens

Will they? I thought Crossrail was only absorbing Heathrow Connect, with Heathrow Express staying as is as a premium service from BAA.

However, if they are surplus then yes, Neville Hill would be a good idea, but given their present high spec, it would be inappropriate to re-equip to 3+2, and instead would be well suited to mainline operation such as Transpennine Express. The fleet of fourteen would amply cover Liverpool to Newcastle, with the four or five car sets on diagrams to match demand as appropriate.

 

[Chris125]

Will they? I thought Crossrail was only absorbing Heathrow Connect, with Heathrow Express staying as is as a premium service from BAA.

This is reguarly debated, but it seems likely with fast line capacity at a premium - it was reccomended in the RUS with a skip-stop Crossrail service i believe.

Chris

 

[pemma]

However, if they are surplus then yes, Neville Hill would be a good idea, but given their present high spec, it would be inappropriate to re-equip to 3+2, and instead would be well suited to mainline operation such as Transpennine Express. The fleet of fourteen would amply cover Liverpool to Newcastle, with the four or five car sets on diagrams to match demand as appropriate.

I imagine they'd suit the Manchester-Leeds semi-fasts that'll be introduced but you won't need 14 trains for 2tph.

Basing them at Leeds for Liverpool-Newcastle services would mean long ECS runs unless you mean in the way that Yorkshire 142s are based at Heaton, in the sense that they are sent there for servicing and stabled in Yorkshire most of the time they aren't in use.

 

[43021HST]

Just thinking the last of the Class 303s were 40 years old when they were finally replaced, if the 315s were refurbished much like Southern have with the 313s I cant see why they couldn't do another 10 years. The 315s & 313s seem to be still reliable, and why replace something that still has life in it. Its just a waste of resources, just because something's old doesn't mean its life expired.

Normally electric stock has a longer life than diesel.

 

[jon0844]

I totally agree.

Sent from my Commodore 64 using Tapatalk

 

[tom1649]

Just thinking the last of the Class 303s were 40 years old when they were finally replaced, if the 315s were refurbished much like Southern have with the 313s I cant see why they couldn't do another 10 years. The 315s & 313s seem to be still reliable, and why replace something that still has life in it. Its just a waste of resources, just because something's old doesn't mean its life expired.

Normally electric stock has a longer life than diesel.

Couldn't agree with you more. I know it's on its way out now but look at the A Stock on the Metropolitan line. Some of these have now surpassed 50 years in service and still manage to be more comfortable than any 25 year old pacer. After their refurbishment in the mid 1990s your average passenger wouldn't guess that they are 50 years old.

I'm of the opinion that any properly refurbished Class 313 or 315 which was transferred would still be far superior to any Class 142 or 144 pacer that was replaced (lack of toilets aside). At least they have proper bogies and sliding doors.

 

[Class377/5]

The way things are looking now, the 315 & 319 fleets are neck and neck for which will be displaced first.

Have to say wouldn't a 313 or 315 as now miles better than a pacer?

 

[tbtc]

I'm of the opinion that any properly refurbished Class 313 or 315 which was transferred would still be far superior to any Class 142 or 144 pacer that was replaced (lack of toilets aside). At least they have proper bogies and sliding doors.

Have to say wouldn't a 313 or 315 as now miles better than a pacer?

I agree.

If we have around sixty four-coach 315s, plus a similar number of three-coach 313s, that'd be enough to replace all Pacers (and allow all 153s to double up) if enough lines were electrified and would give a much better capacity.

313/315s may be older but they'd be better than a Pacer (as well as potentially having twice the capacity).

Not every line is suitable for electrification, so you'd have to put 150s on routes like Skipton - Lancaster, but if you wire up every route with a half hourly frequency you could eliminate Pacers.

 

[pemma]

Just thinking the last of the Class 303s were 40 years old when they were finally replaced, if the 315s were refurbished much like Southern have with the 313s I cant see why they couldn't do another 10 years.

But the question will be how old will they be when they are released? I imagine it'll be around 37 years old, which will be too old to justify the cost of a complete refurbishment.

 

[tom1649]

Even at 37 years old you could get another 10 years out of them.

 

[pemma]

Even at 37 years old you could get another 10 years out of them.

Could get 47 years out of them is not the same as very likely to get at least 40 years of them.

 

[Waverley125]

if you tot up the total number of 313s, 314, 315s, 317s, 318s & 319s, you have a total of 320 train sets, which is enough to remove all pacers & 150s from Northern & ATW services in Yorkshire, Manchester and Wales. You could then cascade the 150s to the southwest & to other rural services for strengthening.

 

[pemma]

if you tot up the total number of 313s, 314, 315s, 317s, 318s & 319s, you have a total of 320 train sets, which is enough to remove all pacers & 150s from Northern & ATW services in Yorkshire, Manchester and Wales. You could then cascade the 150s to the southwest & to other rural services for strengthening.

Two problems with that:

1. The cascade of 319s to the North West and Thames Valley is primarily to provide extra capacity, so using them to replace Pacers won't cure existing overcrowding issues. I imagine the only Pacer replacement that will happen as a result of the 319 cascade is the FGW 143s but then they'll just finish up with ATW if they do leave FGW.

2. Exactly what lines do you justify electrifying to get rid of all 142s and 150s from the North? Do you propose electrifying the Denton line, which Northern use to get stock to and from Newton Heath? If not how would you deal with all the extra ECS movements through the central Manchester stations?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

if you tot up the total number of 313s, 314, 315s, 317s, 318s & 319s, you have a total of 320 train sets, which is enough to remove all pacers & 150s from Northern & ATW services in Yorkshire, Manchester and Wales. You could then cascade the 150s to the southwest & to other rural services for strengthening.

The drop-dead date of 2020 for disability legislation compliance will come into play here.
Each train type will have to be assessed and costed, and some won't even start the process.
It will be cheaper to scrap and build new, like the last slam-door EMUs.
My guess is that 317 and up will be upgraded, the others scrapped by 2020.
The older trains could only move north on a temporary basis.

 

[aylesbury]

To put things in context, the 308s were built in 1961 so over thirty years old by the time they arrived in West Yorkshire (after having a middle coach taken out of them).

The Wharfdale/ Airedale lines showed significant passenger growth which firstly justified new stock in the 333s back in 2001, later extended to four coaches.

So, getting old "London" trains on newly electrified lines in "the North" has precedence...

TBH I've no problem with that, if it means lines get electrified, as the case for new EMUs may be easier to make after passenger numbers have increased.

The Thameslink/ Crossrail programmes will free up a number of EMUs from the London area (no mention of the 332s and 360s yet on this thread?), so we have a "once in a generation" opportunity for old EMUs becoming spare (mainly 315/319s, admittedly, but a 315/319 has got to be better than a Pacer).

However, as we are talking about unknown service provision in unknown franchise boundaries, there's not much point falling out over the specifics.

The 304,s had difficulty stopping and had to run in multiple ,had same problem in London.

 

[tom1649]

At least the 313s, 314s and 315s wouldn't need new toilets fitting come 2020.

I don't see why you couldn't get 47 years out them. They really aren't very complicated machines compared to a lot of modern stock. The fact that there are many stored 508s is just because, shamefully, they weren't maintained properly.