390033 City of Glasgow disposal

[gimmea50anyday]

The reason the two pendolino coaches 5 and 9 were retained by virgin is because the driving car contains the galley and the other trailer the shop and train managers office. They are used for staff training.

,365526 has previously been mentioned on other threads as becoming used for military training. with only 3 cars and no possibility of rebuilding the original or a replacement driving vehicle it resided behind Wolverton - correction, Crewe - for some considerable time and now is in numerous pieces across the Cumbrian fells having fallen victim to tank weaponry!

The LG coaches were parked at Minehead for some time afterwards. I'm sure someone has corrected me already on this but I understand these coaches were bought outright by firstgroup before being returned to service. Wether they live on in castle or 7city sets someone will have to dig out a P5 book and check

 

[hexagon789]

I guess, what I meant was, off-the-ironwork, rolled down embankment.
I would expect fire damaged vehiles to be written off automatically.
The sounding out of the other vehiles however, I don't know.
As for your example, I'm affriad I honestly don't know.
Wikipedia leeds to a webpage giving the following:

Source here (nsers.co.uk) No pictures though.

Sorry, hate it when I do that. I'll have a scout around over the weekend!

The 442 definitely went back into service after its wee jaunt

I think there's a bit about it on the southern region e-mail group website or from a link on its 442 pages.

The only production HST power cars written off in accidents (43011/019/173/195) have all been leading trains when damaged.

What about leading ones that weren't written off?

 

[JN114]

Wasn’t Ufton Nervett 2004 not 1991?

 

[pdeaves]

I don't know about any specific vehicles under discussion but how a vehicle is designed and constructed could have a bearing on whether it can be repaired or not. Where the body is structurally load bearing, a small fault could have a more serious consequence than a similar fault on a more traditional body on load bearing underframe. It all depends and engineering experts will work it all out.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The reason the two pendolino coaches 5 and 9 were retained by virgin is because the driving car contains the galley and the other trailer the shop and train managers office. They are used for staff training.

The shop is in Coach C (3), so it probably was Coach 3.

Don't forget 91023!

Well that was pushing both trains at the time.

I don't know about any specific vehicles under discussion but how a vehicle is designed and constructed could have a bearing on whether it can be repaired or not. Where the body is structurally load bearing, a small fault could have a more serious consequence than a similar fault on a more traditional body on load bearing underframe. It all depends and engineering experts will work it all out.

You are correct as the Pendolino uses a friction stir welded monocoque body. Had 033 derailed around the time of the 11 car project, I'm pretty sure it would've been saved, with only the heavily damaged ones being scrapped.

 

[221129]

I would expect fire damaged vehiles to be written off automatically.

Not sure why you'd think that?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Not sure why you'd think that?

3 Mk3's were fire damaged when a fuel tank fell off a HST in 1995 and there's no reports of them being withdrawn.

 

[sprinterguy]

Mk4 DVT 82200 Was recovered from the hatfield crash. 12MK4 coaches were scrapped which means 6 mk4 coaches were recovered from both hatfield and Heck Crashes. Don't forget 91023!

Vehicles 12531, 12314 and 10327 were scrapped following Hatfield, while the remaining six vehicles, plus the DVT 82200, were recovered and returned to service. At Great Heck, the whole rake was written off and subsequently scrapped, though if I remember correctly a couple of the less damaged vehicles lingered at Crewe works for a while longer than the others.

Wasn’t Ufton Nervett 2004 not 1991?

Yes, it certainly was.

 

[sprinterguy]

According to the RAIB report (R20/2008 v5 July 2011) the vehicles identified by FFFC 57 (691 and 698) were vehicles 9 and 3, respectively (in direction of travel).

View attachment 68002

So for completeness, in the direction of travel at the time of the accident:

69233 DMS - Cut up following accident
69933 MS - Cranfield Safety & Accident Investigation Centre, Bedfordshire
69833 PTRSB - Training vehicle at Virgin's "Talent Academy" training centre, Crewe
69733 MS - Fire training college, Moreton in Marsh
68833 TS - Cut up following accident
69633 MF - Fire training college, Moreton in Marsh
69533 PTF - Stored at Long Marston, scrapped 2013
69433 MF - Stored at Long Marston, scrapped 2013
69133 DMF - Training vehicle at Virgin's "Talent Academy" training centre, Crewe

The Grayrigg Pendolino, and the reasons it wouldn't be as straightforward as inserting remaining vehicles into other sets, was most recently discussed here in March this year:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/390033-anything-left.179607/

One point I noted was:

Plus, it's not as simple as just inserting any old vehicles into the Pendolinos to extend them. Of the two additional vehicles inserted into the Pendolinos to make them into 11 carriage formations, one is a motor vehicle and the other a trailer with a transformer fitted - essentially a pantograph car sans pantograph, and as with any other Pendolino 390033 had only two pantograph cars.

 

[millemille]

365526.

The trailing DMOS vehicle was a physical write off and vehicle 3 had significant damage to the rear drag box and bodyend structure; the cost of replacing/repairing this was significantly higher than the residual value of the whole train so the whole thing was written off as being beyond economical repair.

HSBC bought the 3 vehicles from the insurers and a deal was struck with Bombardier, the maintenance and overhaul contractor to HSBC for the 365 fleet at the time, whereby they would store the vehicles at Crewe and in exchange the 365 project would, with HSBC's approval be able to borrow material from the vehicles to bolster the overhaul float or support repairs.

One of my responsibilities, as HSBC's 365 fleet support engineer, was to maintain the register of what material had been borrowed and to do an annual audit and condition assessment of the stored vehicles.

Initially the arrangement with Bombardier worked very well, due to the high annual mileage the 365's ran at the time the fleet was pretty much undergoing constant level 5 overhaul so the extra compressor, air drier, control switches/line breakers etc. were all welcome. The bogies came in useful when 26 power bogie frames had to be replaced across the whole fleet due to alignment issues shortening axle bearing life.

However, problems started when Crewe works crash repair team saw these vehicles on their doorstep every day and they got a fire damaged 465 in for repair.

I went up to Crewe to do the annual audit in 2007 or '08 and climbed in the undamaged DMOS at the gangway end and thought "something's not right here" but couldn't put my finger on what it was for a good few seconds. Then I realised I could see out of the cab windscreens whilst standing at the opposite end of the vehicle.....

The crash repair team had robbed the cab back wall - which is in reality a metal frame filled with relays and other electrical equipment - without permission from HSBC and used it to repair the class 465. The worst thing was they hadn't disconnected the wiring - the looms with hundreds of individual wires in come up through the floor - but had taken a set of bolt croppers and sheared through the looms.

This damage and all the unauthorised robbed parts sealed the fate of '526.

When HSBC were negotiating Bombardier out of the maintenance contract in '09/'10 the condition of '526 was used as a negotiation point and contributed to the reduced final settlement figure that HSBC paid Bombardier to have Bombardier walk away from the 365 fleet.

 

[LOL The Irony]

365526.

The trailing DMOS vehicle was a physical write off and vehicle 3 had significant damage to the rear drag box and bodyend structure; the cost of replacing/repairing this was significantly higher than the residual value of the whole train so the whole thing was written off as being beyond economical repair.

HSBC bought the 3 vehicles from the insurers and a deal was struck with Bombardier, the maintenance and overhaul contractor to HSBC for the 365 fleet at the time, whereby they would store the vehicles at Crewe and in exchange the 365 project would, with HSBC's approval be able to borrow material from the vehicles to bolster the overhaul float or support repairs.

One of my responsibilities, as HSBC's 365 fleet support engineer, was to maintain the register of what material had been borrowed and to do an annual audit and condition assessment of the stored vehicles.

Initially the arrangement with Bombardier worked very well, due to the high annual mileage the 365's ran at the time the fleet was pretty much undergoing constant level 5 overhaul so the extra compressor, air drier, control switches/line breakers etc. were all welcome. The bogies came in useful when 26 power bogie frames had to be replaced across the whole fleet due to alignment issues shortening axle bearing life.

However, problems started when Crewe works crash repair team saw these vehicles on their doorstep every day and they got a fire damaged 465 in for repair.

I went up to Crewe to do the annual audit in 2007 or '08 and climbed in the undamaged DMOS at the gangway end and thought "something's not right here" but couldn't put my finger on what it was for a good few seconds. Then I realised I could see out of the cab windscreens whilst standing at the opposite end of the vehicle.....

The crash repair team had robbed the cab back wall - which is in reality a metal frame filled with relays and other electrical equipment - without permission from HSBC and used it to repair the class 465. The worst thing was they hadn't disconnected the wiring - the looms with hundreds of individual wires in come up through the floor - but had taken a set of bolt croppers and sheared through the looms.

This damage and all the unauthorised robbed parts sealed the fate of '526.

When HSBC were negotiating Bombardier out of the maintenance contract in '09/'10 the condition of '526 was used as a negotiation point and contributed to the reduced final settlement figure that HSBC paid Bombardier to have Bombardier walk away from the 365 fleet.

Quite the insight. And what an amteurish job by Crewe works. And HSBC had to give Bombardier money to get them to go away?

 

[millemille]

And HSBC had to give Bombardier money to get them to go away?

Small part of a much, much bigger picture.

HSBC were in a big hole with the 365 fleet; looking at a loss in the tens of millions, in fact closer to a hundred million, across the remaining life of the fleet. There was a breakpoint in the maintenance contract with Bombardier in 2010 where price etc. was to be negotiated for the remainder of the vehicle life. The pence per mile cost that BT wanted was very high, for a number of reasons, and was largely responsible for the projected loss. It ended being significantly cheaper to pay Bombardier the profit they would have made on the contract and give the full maintenance package to the operator (they already did the scheduled level 1-4 exams and D&V so taking on defects wasn't any real additional cost) than to have Bombardier carry on.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Small part of a much, much bigger picture.

HSBC were in a big hole with the 365 fleet; looking at a loss in the tens of millions, in fact closer to a hundred million, across the remaining life of the fleet. There was a breakpoint in the maintenance contract with Bombardier in 2010 where price etc. was to be negotiated for the remainder of the vehicle life. The pence per mile cost that BT wanted was very high, for a number of reasons, and was largely responsible for the projected loss. It ended being significantly cheaper to pay Bombardier the profit they would have made on the contract and give the full maintenance package to the operator (they already did the scheduled level 1-4 exams and D&V so taking on defects wasn't any real additional cost) than to have Bombardier carry on.

Did Bombardier ever get into trouble for hacking apart 526?

 

[millemille]

Did Bombardier ever get into trouble for hacking apart 526?

Not really, like I said it was used a negotiating point. Huge, multinational companies don't generally "get into trouble" for something so, relatively, small like that. Crewe works was on the way out at that time; the crash repair side had shut up shop and the managers who sanctioned the robbing/damage of '526 had all left Bombardier so there was nowhere for it to go and it had the most use as a negotiating item given that the remaining vehicles were of no real value to anyone other than the scrap man....

 

[Speed43125]

Thanks for all the insight guys, Appreciate it! The whole situation with 365526 actually seems to be more interesting than the question of 033. so is it correct to say a number of cars were used as target practice for the MOD?

 

[DarloRich]

Did Bombardier ever get into trouble for hacking apart 526?

Yeah. They got taken around the back and were given a good shoeing. What "trouble" do you think they might get? It is fairly common for parts to be taken off what look like stored vehicles or Christmas trees. Hell it is common enough of vehicles in for overhaul!

The quoted poster told you that this action was used to negotiate a slightly more advantageous position during the activation of a break clause which ia a bit more than the usual email snotogram!

 

[hwl]

Thanks for all the insight guys, Appreciate it! The whole situation with 365526 actually seems to be more interesting than the question of 033. so is it correct to say a number of cars were used as target practice for the MOD?

As I understand it a number of cars (8? inc 365, ex LU and NIR) were used by the team at Fort Halstead to understand the effects of newer homemade devices in trains / underground cars rather than target practices RAF Spadeadam

 

[Speed43125]

As I understand it a number of cars (8? inc 365, ex LU and NIR) were used by the team at Fort Halstead to understand the effects of newer homemade devices in trains / underground cars rather than target practices RAF Spadeadam

Ah. Fair enough. Not the most fitting end to a train, but seemingly a useful one.

 

[hwl]

Ah. Fair enough. Not the most fitting end to a train, but seemingly a useful one.

I think at least 1 included a 365 with holes in it that need patching up first so possibly the trailing DMOS.

 

[43096]

What about leading ones that weren't written off?

Plenty have had accident damage repaired over the years: 43018 (Paddington), 43071 (Newton Abbot), 43158 (Severn Tunnel), 43180 (Edinburgh) for starters.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Yeah, the Edinburgh one gave a 37 a concordesque droop snoot, if I recall correctly it was the 37 running away out of the station towards the HST approaching waverly in or just outside one of the approach tunnels

 

[hexagon789]

Plenty have had accident damage repaired over the years: 43018 (Paddington), 43071 (Newton Abbot), 43158 (Severn Tunnel), 43180 (Edinburgh) for starters.

Thank you, it must be been one of those of was thinking of rather than a more serious accident.

 

[37114]

Yeah, the Edinburgh one gave a 37 a concordesque droop snoot, if I recall correctly it was the 37 running away out of the station towards the HST approaching waverly in or just outside one of the approach tunnels

Yes 37113 was the 37 involved

 

[edwin_m]

Are there any close-up photos available of the damaged 390 cars? I'd be interested to know if the crumple zones at the ends, required by standards but not relevant to this accident, deformed and made it more likely the coaches were beyond economic repair.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Are there any close-up photos available of the damaged 390 cars? I'd be interested to know if the crumple zones at the ends, required by standards but not relevant to this accident, deformed and made it more likely the coaches were beyond economic repair.

Only external view that can be found on the internet AFAIK

 

[driver_m]

Be interesting to see if First take on the 390 coaches and continue to use them for training as now, undoubtedly they are very handy for the onboard staff training.

 

[edwin_m]

Only external view that can be found on the internet AFAIK

Thanks for that - confirms only superficial damage to the nose end which isn't surprising as it didn't strike anything very solid. I'm more interested in whether the collision deformed the inner ends of coaches that might otherwise have been structurally intact and repairable.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Thanks for that - confirms only superficial damage to the nose end which isn't surprising as it didn't strike anything very solid. I'm more interested in whether the collision deformed the inner ends of coaches that might otherwise have been structurally intact and repairable.

It detached from the rest of the train when it derailed. I'm guessing that since it's a monocoque, it's body was too badly damaged for it to be repaired.

 

[James Kevill]

So I guess that the 7 vehicles of Class 390 Pendolinos are being scrapped, cut etc but the two undamaged vehicles remained at Virgin Trains Training Centre at Crewe.

 

[EE Andy b1]

The 2 vehicles 69133 & 69833 from Class 390 Pendolino 390033 at Crewe Training Centre. 2018

Be interesting to see if First take on the 390 coaches and continue to use them for training as now, undoubtedly they are very handy for the onboard staff training.

Be interesting what First Trenitalia do with everything in the future!!