3tph on North Downs Line

[JonathanH]

Yes, it would be better to keep the current timetable (with adjustments for the GTR changes) rather than 2tph on the timings on RTT given the hanging around on the stopper at Guildford.

I thought that it was announced that 3tph was weekday only and Saturday remained 2tph but I may be wrong.

I haven't noticed anything obvious having been done with the level crossing at Reigate to improve safety ahead of the number of trains increasing.

 

[swt_passenger]

There used to be a fair few of these - Banbury even I recall. And the dive-under at Reading makes this even easier, so hopefully they can expand 1tph to Oxford or even Didcot, if there was capacity. Certainly, doubling the Waterloo trains might put pressure on platforms.

It shouldn’t affect platforming as SWR already run 4 tph in the peaks, with roughly 15 min turnarounds rather than the off peak half hour.
I don’t think additional through GW services fit very well with ongoing electrification plans.

 

[Minstral25]

Does anyone know if they have resolved the level crossing issue one way or another?

I haven't heard of a solution and it seems the local council are unaware of one being proposed either but it seems like GWR will be going ahead anyway. Looking forward to hearing the Nimbys moan.

 

[infobleep]

I haven't heard of a solution and it seems the local council are unaware of one being proposed either but it seems like GWR will be going ahead anyway. Looking forward to hearing the Nimbys moan.

I thought they weren't allowed to go ahead and Network Rail had said no due to level crossing issues.

 

[FenMan]

Don't believe anything in RTT for the May timetable yet. The situation is still under discussion regarding the Reading-Gatwick line. One thing for certain - there will be at least minor alterations from current 2tph on SX and SO due to the Thameslink timetable recast.

Thanks. Let's see what GWR come up with.

 

[berneyarms]

Again - wait until February 25th which is the 12 week deadline for uploading new timetables before taking anything on OTT or RTT as accurate post-timetable change.

 

[FenMan]

Again - wait until February 25th which is the 12 week deadline for uploading new timetables before taking anything on OTT or RTT as accurate post-timetable change.

Well, something that passes for a new May NDL timetable is showing in NRE (accompanied by health warnings). The data is clearly incomplete, but, if GWR are planning on implementing something similar then a letter of complaint will be winging its way towards them from me.

In particular:-
- Removal of the Blackwater and North Camp calls from the 23:18 ex-Gatwick, effectively bringing forward the last valid connection from Waterloo to 22:00 on Fridays and Saturdays (currently it's the 23:15).
- The current good up connections at Guildford for Woking/Waterloo services extended by 10 minutes.
- Loss of the regularly spaced half-hourly timetable from Reading to Guildford in favour of a 19/41 minute split.
- Significantly slower journeys from Reading to Ash inclusive to the small stations east of Guildford, while effectively turning the current 2tph to Dorking Deepdene, Reigate and Redhill into 1tph. This is due to the introduction of a 14 minute layover in Guildford.

Incomplete items:
- No Shalford extras.
- A lot of the Reading -Gatwick direct services are missing - the only departures showing before mid-day are the 7:51 and 11:01.

Hmmm ... do GWR really want this half-baked info to be in the public domain?

 

[JonathanH]

Well, something that passes for a new May NDL timetable is showing in NRE (accompanied by health warnings). The data is clearly incomplete, but, if GWR are planning on implementing something similar then a letter of complaint will be winging its way towards them from me.

In particular:-
- Removal of the Blackwater and North Camp calls from the 23:18 ex-Gatwick, effectively bringing forward the last valid connection from Waterloo to 22:00 on Fridays and Saturdays (currently it's the 23:15).
- The current good up connections at Guildford for Woking/Waterloo services extended by 10 minutes.
- Loss of the regularly spaced half-hourly timetable from Reading to Guildford in favour of a 19/41 minute split.
- Significantly slower journeys from Reading to Ash inclusive to the small stations east of Guildford, while effectively turning the current 2tph to Dorking Deepdene, Reigate and Redhill into 1tph. This is due to the introduction of a 14 minute layover in Guildford.

Incomplete items:
- No Shalford extras.
- A lot of the Reading -Gatwick direct services are missing - the only departures showing before mid-day are the 7:51 and 11:01.

Hmmm ... do GWR really want this half-baked info to be in the public domain?

Some of it is definitely missing - the workings at Gatwick don't balance.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...2/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GW

The Saturday timetable looks more complete and I don't think 3tph was meant to extend to that. Therefore this has the 14 minute layover for no reason.

However, is it possible that the service only runs at 2tph from May to December with the odd spacing and the trains which overtake the slow at Guildford get added in December?

I imagine that there would be no Shalford extras in a 3tph timetable.

The changes to remove North Camp and Blackwater stops in the first / last services seem compliant with the train service specification to me.

 

[infobleep]

Some of it is definitely missing - the workings at Gatwick don't balance.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...2/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=GW

The Saturday timetable looks more complete and I don't think 3tph was meant to extend to that. Therefore this has the 14 minute layover for no reason.

However, is it possible that the service only runs at 2tph from May to December with the odd spacing and the trains which overtake the slow at Guildford get added in December?

I imagine that there would be no Shalford extras in a 3tph timetable.

The changes to remove North Camp and Blackwater stops in the first / last services seem compliant with the train service specification to me.

What is the benefit or perceived benefit of skipping those stations? Anyone know?

Would it not make sense to introduce a new spacing of trains once they have three services running, rather than just when they have two? Will running two enable them to do some research into whether three will work or are they just doing it for some other reason?

This assumes there will only be two services. Of course maybe it's needed for Thameslink trains through Redhill.

 

[Bill Badger]

- Removal of the Blackwater and North Camp calls from the 23:18 ex-Gatwick, effectively bringing forward the last valid connection from Waterloo to 22:00 on Fridays and Saturdays (currently it's the 23:15).

This appears to be compounded by the 23:14, being brought forward to 22:48, meaning a night out in Guildford will have to end significantly earlier and 22:48 is going to be pretty tight if one is going to the theatre etc.

 

[The Ham]

This appears to be compounded by the 23:14, being brought forward to 22:48, meaning a night out in Guildford will have to end significantly earlier and 22:48 is going to be pretty tight if one is going to the theatre etc.

There's an argument that it would be possible that you could get back by going to Farnborough Main (for North Camp) with the last two trains getting to Farnborough about 10 minutes either side of midnight or Camberley (for Blackwater) at about 23:45.

Yes it would involve a rather long walk or a taxi, however given the generally infrequent nature that people go to the theatre (or other late night entertainments) I would suggest that in real terms it's not going to impact all that many people and those that it does it will be fairly infrequent.

 

[infobleep]

There's an argument that it would be possible that you could get back by going to Farnborough Main (for North Camp) with the last two trains getting to Farnborough about 10 minutes either side of midnight or Camberley (for Blackwater) at about 23:45.

Yes it would involve a rather long walk or a taxi, however given the generally infrequent nature that people go to the theatre (or other late night entertainments) I would suggest that in real terms it's not going to impact all that many people and those that it does it will be fairly infrequent.

How many people would travel on the 22:48? Could that be cancelled as not that many use it? Could the same be applies to early morning trains because not many use them?

I know of females who will not travel to North Camp at night because it's dark and lowly place. Should we be encouraging females to do that, given we are meant to have equality?

 

[bonzawe]

I wonder how regulars will take to th degrading of the stock used to class 769 apparently confirmed today.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heathrow-express-gwr-contract.162470/#post-3395526

 

[The Ham]

I wonder how regulars will take to th degrading of the stock used to class 769 apparently confirmed today.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heathrow-express-gwr-contract.162470/#post-3395526

More standing space, more doors and a handful of extra seats, that wood all go down well on the services which are rammed during the peaks.

I would be interested to know in what way you think that they are a downgrade over the existing stock. Given that both are 2+3 and the AC on the 16x' (where it exists) isn't great.

 

[Non Multi]

I still think there's a good case for 3rd rail infill electrification on the NDL. It's a real pity the powers that be aren't remotely interested.

 

[TEW]

More standing space, more doors and a handful of extra seats, that wood all go down well on the services which are rammed during the peaks.

I would be interested to know in what way you think that they are a downgrade over the existing stock. Given that both are 2+3 and the AC on the 16x' (where it exists) isn't great.

Especially given the 166s with decent luggage provision are now nearly extinct on the line. Could easily make a 319/769 interior better than the 165 offering.

 

[DelW]

Use of 769s would reduce diesel exhaust fumes at Reading, Guildford (especially if / when it becomes enclosed) and Gatwick. Would they have to be reduced to 3 coaches for NDL use? AIUI 3 is the maximum currently permitted in service (I know that occasionally an OOU unit is attached as well).

 

[Clarence Yard]

You can't easily get a 3 car 769. But a 4 car 319 is 80m compared to 69m for a 3 car 165 so there are no length issues for NDL use.

They will be 4 car, 276 seats with 3 standard size luggage stacks in each vehicle.

 

[DelW]

Well, something that passes for a new May NDL timetable is showing in NRE (accompanied by health warnings). The data is clearly incomplete, but, if GWR are planning on implementing something similar then a letter of complaint will be winging its way towards them from me.
Hmmm ... do GWR really want this half-baked info to be in the public domain?

A month on, and only just over 6 weeks before the new timetable is introduced, and it still looks very sparse. There are no PDFs of the new timetables available on GWR's website yet, but their own journey planner is showing the same times as Realtimetrains does. Through the day, this shows mainly half-hourly semi-fast Gatwicks, occasionally replaced or occasionally supplemented by a Redhill stopper. That means that for the smaller stations east of Guildford which currently have a regular 1tph or 1tp2h service, it's showing 3 or 4 hour gaps in post May 19th services.
Presumably at some point a more rational service pattern may be published, but at present it hardly inspires confidence that the new timetable will even match the present one, let alone be an improvement.

 

[infobleep]

I can see trains departing from Gatwick at 0 minutes passed the hour but I can't see inbound trains to form it. I'm using Open Train Times, so clearly the full timetable isn't in there. I'm assuming what is in there won't be removed but who knows.

 

[swt_passenger]

A month on, and only just over 6 weeks before the new timetable is introduced, and it still looks very sparse. There are no PDFs of the new timetables available on GWR's website yet, but their own journey planner is showing the same times as Realtimetrains does.

It would be unusual for pdfs to be online 6 weeks ahead even if the timetabling situation was normal, based on previous experience. Someone often keeps tab of them appearing across the different TOCs and between 4 and 2 weeks is more usual...

 

[berneyarms]

It would be unusual for pdfs to be online 6 weeks ahead even if the timetabling situation was normal, based on previous experience. Someone often keeps tab of them appearing across the different TOCs and between 4 and 2 weeks is more usual...

I’m that person - they would usually appear by now to be fair.

But as this timetable is different in that the deadline for finalising it is this weekend, then I’d expect to see pdfs appearing from this weekend.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Service remains under discussion. Anything currently published online (on ANY site) should be ignored for now.

 

[Eastwestjct]

Freedom of information request to DFT on GWR franchise obligation of 3 trains per hour may reveal all.

 

[swt_passenger]

Freedom of information request to DFT on GWR franchise obligation of 3 trains per hour may reveal all.

You don’t think they’d spin it out until June?

 

[JonathanH]

Service remains under discussion. Anything currently published online (on ANY site) should be ignored for now.

It doesn't really work like that though does it. The GWR trains can only arrive and leave Gatwick Airport, Redhill, Guildford and Reading at certain times dictated by other services so the paths online are pretty much how it will end up - e.g. xx01 from Reading and xx30 from Gatwick, stopper at xx20 from Reading and xx02 from Redhill with some small perturbations such as Gatwick trains moving to xx50 from Reading to allow stops. Trains from Reading to Gatwick can only reverse at Redhill between xx08 and xx15 and xx38 and xx45.

Surely the only two questions that they are struggling to answer are a) resource led - ie how many Turbos and how many train crew people are available; and b) Network Rail-led regarding performance of the timetable and the risk of knock on delays to Thameslink.

At least the Sunday timetable seems settled.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

It doesn't really work like that though does it. The GWR trains can only arrive and leave Gatwick Airport, Redhill, Guildford and Reading at certain times dictated by other services so the paths online are pretty much how it will end up - e.g. xx01 from Reading and xx30 from Gatwick, stopper at xx20 from Reading and xx02 from Redhill with some small perturbations such as Gatwick trains moving to xx50 from Reading to allow stops. Trains from Reading to Gatwick can only reverse at Redhill between xx08 and xx15 and xx38 and xx45.

Surely the only two questions that they are struggling to answer are a) resource led - ie how many Turbos and how many train crew people are available; and b) Network Rail-led regarding performance of the timetable and the risk of knock on delays to Thameslink.

At least the Sunday timetable seems settled.

This post is rather inaccurate. There are several different permutations for the route and I can guarantee that the data currently in the public domain does not resemble the timetable which is currently being finalised.

Your implication that the real reason for the delayed publication is down to resource availability is also 100% incorrect. Resources were in place to operate a timetable 50% larger than the existing timetable, so a continued 2tph operation poses no difficulty whatsoever.

At least your comment about Sundays is accurate, but then it was not planned to change.

 

[tsr]

Resources were in place to operate a timetable 50% larger than the existing timetable, so a continued 2tph operation poses no difficulty whatsoever.

The crew resources are mostly there for 3tph (and have been there for a while, such that they have not been impressed by being spare a lot of the time!). The stock is a bit tighter, but I think has been planned appropriately now.

 

[JonathanH]

The crew resources are mostly there for 3tph (and have been there for a while, such that they have not been impressed by being spare a lot of the time!). The stock is a bit tighter, but I think has been planned appropriately now.

Right, but if I understand the comments correctly, a timetable is being devised that allows 2tph to continue for the foreseeable future with the necessary changes to accommodate the other trains running between Reigate, Redhill and Gatwick?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Yes, this is correct. It will be 2tph but not the same timetable as the current version due to the Thameslink recast.