3tph on North Downs Line

[infobleep]

It's definitely happened - I've been on one. I can't remember the circumstances, but a couple of years ago there was a brief phase where two Turbo units (at different times) had an extra coach inserted. I can't remember the specifics and I probably wouldn't have it written down anywhere, but I could be sure it's been mentioned on the forums before.



Stations like Dorking Deepdene can accommodate 4 coaches of MkI stock (source: Sectional Appendix). At that particular location, the length is 87.8 between the tops of the ramps, so with some careful positioning the doors could probably all fit on the platform, unless you went for the much simpler option of locking out the doors on the rear coach at one or two stations.



"Fire regs" (as they are known colloquially in the industry) will require a certain number of exits from each coach and each unit, thus you would not normally be permitted to run a formation with a unit where only one of its two coaches was accessible, as there would only be 4 available exits for passengers.



Some Redhill-Gatwick workings are DOO, not all, as far as I know. I seem to remember some of them, possibly some evening ones, are booked to run without any second member of crew at all. I'll have to ask a GWR guard next time I have a moment.

For Redhill-Gatwick, all platforms could easily accommodate any of the conceivable Turbo formations in use on the route, with the caveat that GWR services only call there in emergencies and therefore "once in a blue moon" etc. The shortest is Salfords which can hold 8 coaches of 377 stock. You can only dispatch from these stations with bodyside cameras anyway so a guard would need to be provided for that, without taking into account SDO.



I do get the feeling that the TL Programme does need to settle down before this sort of improvement is tackled, but I wouldn't necessarily agree that the positioning of the turnback platform is going to be any worse than if it was placed anywhere else within the current boundary of the station. If Platform 0 had been the bay platform then trains to or from Gatwick would still have had to cross the entire throat at the south of Redhill in order to get to or from the BML.



I'm not sure that anybody currently has the authority or money to sort some of those crossings out. You're quite right that it's not limited to the controlled ones - indeed, I'd be more worried about risk and misuse at some of the AHBC ones which have no permanent monitoring solution - but I guess that the more rural and lightly-used you go, the less investment there would be to build bridges and underpasses. Take Buckland AHBC as an example: you could use a bridge, such as crosses a lightly-used footpath and farm track just to the West, and drop the road down a little further (taking into account drainage from the hills to the north) but who's going to stump up the cash when the whole success of a 3tph timetable could also be affected by numerous existing flaws, such as flat junctions etc.?



So we have the paths; and the crews are there, indeed the trains could probably be there too. Oh dear!

So what will do they with the trains and crews? Can they be used elsewhere? Would they continue to train them because their agreement with the DfT says they need to be deployed or would common sense apply.

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[infobleep]

Apart from the odd STP working on a Saturday/Sunday, LTP all NDL services are booked to have a guard throughout. DOO GWR services may not call at Horley, Salfords and Earlswood.

Have GWR services ever stopped at those three stations? I've never been on one that does. I think stopping at Horley would be useful but there's a time penalty to do so, so with it being so close to Gatwick and other trains available from there to Redhill, I couldn't see it happening.

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[JN114]

Have GWR services ever stopped at those three stations? I've never been on one that does. I think stopping at Horley would be useful but there's a time penalty to do so, so with it being so close to Gatwick and other trains available from there to Redhill, I couldn't see it happening.

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I've taken a few begging phone calls from Southern asking if we can stop there vice something they've cancelled - we stop there so infrequently (nothing booked, only ever in disruption) I generally confer with the guard as to whether he and his driver are comfortable taking a special stop order, given the risks associated with stopping at an unfamiliar station. Most have no problem, but a handful have refused. The time penalty calling at all 3 is 6 minutes, and as it would have to be on a Gatwick that jeapordises the turnaround time at Reading / Gatwick most of the day, so it may well end up at the expense of other, scheduled stops if the call is made.

 

[Deepgreen]

What?

Seats and seating layout is exactly the same - a 166 just has a slightly more substantial bulkheads around the door, carpet, luggage racks and air conditioning.

Anyway, suggestions were that 165s are due to be used instead of 166s once the 166s are packaged off to Bristol and 165s receive some kind of interior makeover / Chiltern style air cooling.

Not true - the 166s have full tables in both end compartments, unlike the 165s.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's definitely happened - I've been on one. I can't remember the circumstances, but a couple of years ago there was a brief phase where two Turbo units (at different times) had an extra coach inserted. I can't remember the specifics and I probably wouldn't have it written down anywhere, but I could be sure it's been mentioned on the forums before.

Unless the phase you refer to was extremely brief (a few days, coinciding with my holidays), it hasn't happened in the nearly six years that I have commuted daily on the route. In any case, why would an extra coach have been inserted into an otherwise normal length unit? If there were spares, surely the logical course would have been to have stored them rather than create awkward-to-operate longer units requiring (presumably) extremely careful station stopping positions by the drivers?

 

[jimm]

A four-car Turbo - but note that it is an empty stock working - the extra coach may have needed a trip to the wheel lathe at Ilford and was added to a set that was already due to go there.

I've certainly never seen a four-car in passenger service in the best part of 20 years using Thames/FGW/GWR services they work on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seuT4Bpev48

 

[jimm]

Not true - the 166s have full tables in both end compartments, unlike the 165s.

And some tables with 2+2 seats in part of the centre car as well.

 

[Kite159]

And some tables with 2+2 seats in part of the centre car as well.

Some small tables in areas where the seating is 3-1+2, i.e. they removed the 3rd seat but left the other two seats the same width, allowing a large aisle [think 357/3]

 

[Deepgreen]

A four-car Turbo - but note that it is an empty stock working - the extra coach may have needed a trip to the wheel lathe at Ilford and was added to a set that was already due to go there.

I've certainly never seen a four-car in passenger service in the best part of 20 years using Thames/FGW/GWR services they work on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seuT4Bpev48

Indeed - I have never seen, heard of or seen photos of a four car 166, whether in or out of service (apart from yours!). BTW, do the FGW/GWR Turbos go to Ilford? I've never seen or heard of that move either.

 

[JonathanH]

Some small tables in areas where the seating is 3-1+2, i.e. they removed the 3rd seat but left the other two seats the same width, allowing a large aisle [think 357/3]

They were built like that (less the tip up seats in the space for the catering trolley which were fitted about half way through the build and retro-fitted to the earlier ones).

 

[jimm]

Indeed - I have never seen, heard of or seen photos of a four car 166, whether in or out of service (apart from yours!). BTW, do the FGW/GWR Turbos go to Ilford? I've never seen or heard of that move either.

I can't claim the credit for that video - all the work of one HSTcallum

The trips by Turbos to Ilford's wheel lathe are a very longstanding arrangement, probably since they were introduced. I think the stepping boards below the doors are removed to ensure they don't scrape anything on their way across London.

There's a picture of a Chiltern Line 165 there back in the 1990s on the Network South East Railway Society site

http://www.nsers.org/dmu.html

 

[jimm]

Some small tables in areas where the seating is 3-1+2, i.e. they removed the 3rd seat but left the other two seats the same width, allowing a large aisle [think 357/3]

If you mean this area - picture is by Colin J Marsden
http://www.dawlishtrains.com/uploads/7/2/2/3/7223531/4217774_orig.jpg

this is the one I was referring to in the first place and was fitted out like this with 2+2 seats and tables when the 166s were built - bar the change to some sets noted by Jonathan H to fit the row of tip-up seats.

The seats are the regular two-seat standard class design used on Turbos and some other BR rolling stock of a similar vintage and the tables are the same as those in the first class compartments in the driving cars.

 

[The Ham]

Has there been any further information on when extra services may start?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Once all of the remodelling at Redhill has been done (Platform 0), even then I've not heard of a specific date/period.

I'd say possibly December 2018.

 

[The Ham]

Once all of the remodelling at Redhill has been done (Platform 0), even then I've not heard of a specific date/period.

I'd say possibly December 2018.

Thank you, that was my (slightly less informed) guess but wanted to know if others had a more informed answer.

 

[zoneking]

I've noticed that in the last few days GWR are running two-car 165s on the Redhill -Reading services, instead of the usual three-car trains (165 or 166) . Anyone know why?
They get very crowded between Guildford and Reading.

 

[JonathanH]

I've noticed that in the last few days GWR are running two-car 165s on the Redhill -Reading services, instead of the usual three-car trains (165 or 166) . Anyone know why?
They get very crowded between Guildford and Reading.

A number of units have gone to the West, all 3-coach ones. These have been displaced by the use of 387s from Paddington to Maidenhead. In some cases, 387s will have displaced a 5-car 166/165 formation - fewer 166s to go round and 2-car 165s spare puts them on the North Downs Line.

 

[Minstral25]

Thank you, that was my (slightly less informed) guess but wanted to know if others had a more informed answer.

Can't give you a definitive answer but when discussing trains from Redhill in the GTR 2018 timetable - GTR's team have revised times for GWR trains that includes the 2 train per hour paths for GWR between Redhill and Gatwick, plus a separate terminating at Redhill service.

 

[JonathanH]

Early signs about the timetable from May 2018 appear to be available in the data used by Realtimetrains etc

It looks to me as if either:
a) 3tph is going ahead but the Reading to Gatwick trains which pass the stopper at Guildford (at about xx31 from Reading) aren't uploaded yet, or
b) it is going to be 2tph with the Redhill stopper having 12 minutes at Guildford for no purpose other than to provide space for the extra Reading to Gatwick service to pass once it starts running at a future timetable change.

I hope that the first of these is true.

Monday 21 May
Reading to Redhill
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...21/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt

Redhill to Reading
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...21/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt

I do fear that the Guildford to Redhill section of the stopping service is going to be carting fresh air around during the day but putting the stops in the Gatwick services doesn't work either. (Maybe a long term aspiration of putting some diesel engine under a 377 and running the Guildford stopper to Victoria via Redhill is our best hope.)

These are the passing times at Guildford which show that there is scope for a Reading to Gatwick train to pass.

Eastbound http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...21/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt
Westbound http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...21/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt

Same basic timetable on Saturdays.

The new 2tph service on Sundays which ran today for the first time (due to engineering work on the last two weeks) carries through to the new timetable.

 

[Minstral25]

Early signs about the timetable from May 2018 appear to be available in the data used by Realtimetrains etc

It looks to me as if either:
a) 3tph is going ahead but the Reading to Gatwick trains which pass the stopper at Guildford (at about xx31 from Reading) aren't uploaded yet, or
b) it is going to be 2tph with the Redhill stopper having 12 minutes at Guildford for no purpose other than to provide space for the extra Reading to Gatwick service to pass once it starts running at a future timetable change.

I hope that the first of these is true.

The new times at Reigate are causing issues for GTR as well. Their new half-hourly Reigate to Victoria service will be hanging around at Redhill for 7 minutes. This is because the Reading to Gatwick service has to follow it to Redhill and thus it has to leave at xx:00 to allow the xx:04 Gatwick service to leave just behind it. They won't swap over as it may mean that a late running GWR service wrecks their "On-Time" railway!

 

[FenMan]

Well I'm hoping this information is far from complete or accurate.

The last Gatwick - Reading of the night is showing as non-stop Guildford - Wokingham. If true, evenings out in London for yours truly will become a thing of the past as the last connection of the night to Blackwater would become the 22:00 from Waterloo, far too early to go to a concert or the theatre.

Likewise, the first departure from Blackwater to Reading is showing as the 07:10, instead of today's 06:37. This would not go down well.

 

[Starmill]

If true, evenings out in London for yours truly will become a thing of the past as the last connection of the night to Blackwater would become the 22:00 from Waterloo, far too early to go to a concert or the theatre.

In this eventuality there would presumably still be a connection for Camberley from the 2350 from Waterloo, so all would not be lost.

 

[FenMan]

In this eventuality there would presumably still be a connection for Camberley from the 2350 from Waterloo, so all would not be lost.

The slight issue being I live a 5 minute walk from Blackwater and over 2 miles from Camberley!

 

[tsr]

It's interesting to see there is now an 0400 Oxford - Gatwick Airport service on Saturdays.

I haven't seen it explicitly mentioned anywhere else - could be wrong though!

 

[JonathanH]

I suspect that the first trains in the Reading direction are as shown - the first service is only required to arrive at Reading by 0715 and one service from Gatwick Airport in the period between 0600 and 0944 may omit to call at North Camp and Blackwater. To date this has been the 0917 from Gatwick Airport so it gets to Reading in time to be the 1034 back - it now looks like it will be the first train so that it arrives at Reading by 0715.

The service level specification is available in this zip file - item 3b, part E
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ile/617725/great-western-2015-commitments.zip

EDIT: Or maybe not - there seems to be an early empty stock working from Redhill to Gatwick in Realtimetrains so perhaps the early train remains at about its current time.

 

[DelW]

The last Gatwick - Reading of the night is showing as non-stop Guildford - Wokingham. If true, evenings out in London for yours truly will become a thing of the past as the last connection of the night to Blackwater would become the 22:00 from Waterloo, far too early to go to a concert or the theatre.

If this were to be the final timetable, it looks as though you'd still have the option of the 22:45 from Paddington with a fairly comfortable 16min connection at Reading. I know Paddington is further from the West End than Waterloo is, but it might give an extra half-hour or so compared with the 22:00 from Waterloo?

 

[cle]

It's interesting to see there is now an 0400 Oxford - Gatwick Airport service on Saturdays.

I haven't seen it explicitly mentioned anywhere else - could be wrong though!

There used to be a fair few of these - Banbury even I recall. And the dive-under at Reading makes this even easier, so hopefully they can expand 1tph to Oxford or even Didcot, if there was capacity. Certainly, doubling the Waterloo trains might put pressure on platforms.

 

[infobleep]

It's interesting to see there is now an 0400 Oxford - Gatwick Airport service on Saturdays.

I haven't seen it explicitly mentioned anywhere else - could be wrong though!

I mentioned it in a trivia thread about trains that depart earlier on Saturdays to weekdays. I seem to think someone else said it was always in the timetable and was just a stock move.

I wasn't aware of it myself, until I did a search to see if I could find an earlier train departure for the trivia question that is.

 

[infobleep]

Does anyone know if they have resolved the level crossing issue one way or another?

I was hoping to look at potential connections at Gatwick Airport but they haven't been uploaded yet. Not that I'm in any perticular hurry to find out.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Don't believe anything in RTT for the May timetable yet. The situation is still under discussion regarding the Reading-Gatwick line. One thing for certain - there will be at least minor alterations from current 2tph on SX and SO due to the Thameslink timetable recast.