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3tph on North Downs Line

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Nicholas Lewis

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Perhaps people are avoiding the trains because they are not running all the way to Gatwick Airport. If you have suitcases, you might prefer not to have to change from platform 0 to platform 3 at Redhill. I appreciate there is a lift, if people are happy to use such a thing at this time..
Indeed at least GWR stop at the country end unlike Southern who go half way up the platform. Even more of a trek if you come in on a Tonbridge - no thought given to easy transfer of passengers
 
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infobleep

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Indeed at least GWR stop at the country end unlike Southern who go half way up the platform. Even more of a trek if you come in on a Tonbridge - no thought given to easy transfer of passengers
Not aware of them stopping at the county end on platform 0 but maybe it does.
 

JonathanH

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Indeed at least GWR stop at the country end unlike Southern who go half way up the platform. Even more of a trek if you come in on a Tonbridge - no thought given to easy transfer of passengers
GWR stop country end at Redhill for quick reversals - eg Gatwick and stoppers going straight back out. If they are to be at Redhill for any length of time - eg on Sundays, they will also go to the London end just like the Southern services and there will be a long walk.

Looking at RTT for October, it looks like the 'fast' Redhill will go London end of platform 0 with the stopper arriving and departing at the Country end 'on top' throughout the day.

That looks like a long walk to interchange to me.

Easy interchange for passengers does not trump sensible operating practice.
 

KT530

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Not aware of them stopping at the county end on platform 0 but maybe it does.

Local instructions are for GWR’s Redhill terminating services on platforms 0 and 2 to stop at the 6 car marker, which is towards the London end of the platform.

A pain for customers walking all that way, especially with luggage, but those are the instructions.
 

infobleep

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Local instructions are for GWR’s Redhill terminating services on platforms 0 and 2 to stop at the 6 car marker, which is towards the London end of the platform.

A pain for customers walking all that way, especially with luggage, but those are the instructions.
I guess rules is rules. Interesting that it doesn't apply to platform 1.
 

DelW

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I'm sure I've been on a North Downs line train last year that went right to the London end of platform 1. That was the end of my journey, so I don't remember whether it was continuing to Gatwick or returning to Reading. Possibly it was laying over and another unit was coming in behind it.
 

JonathanH

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So, today, we have had a few hours with 3tph Reading to Redhill services during the off peak. Under this timetable, the stopping train xx20 from Reading is overtaken at Guildford by a xx36. In the other direction, the xx00 from Redhill is overtaken by the xx14 from Redhill. The service on the opposite side of the hour goes through Guildford in the opposite direction at about the same time.

Some odd bits from the operation. In particular, I note that it didn't seem to go to plan with the 2V63 1301 Redhill to Reading and 1V82 1315 Redhill to Reading. 2V63 (scheduled 1336-1346) was let out of Guildford to free up platform 8 and 1V82 followed it through (scheduled 1342-1344, actual 1349-1350) to Reading, ending up 21 minutes late in the process (25 minutes late at Wokingham). 1V82 clearly sat on the signals at North Camp, Farnborough and Blackwater awaiting 2V63 to clear the sections ahead - eg 1V82 couldn't leave Blackwater until 2V63 was at Wokingham.

2V63 1301 Redhill to Reading - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L83262/2020-09-15/detailed
1V82 1315 Redhill to Reading - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C08500/2020-09-15/detailed

It appears that platforms 5 and 6 at Guildford were both blocked but that sort of thing is the gamble with the 3tph timetable and passing at Guildford.

The next sequence in the other direction didn't really work either. 2O40 1320 Reading to Redhill arrived at Guildford platform 8 (booked 1403-1413) at 1409. The following 1O97 1336 Reading to Redhill lost time at North Camp and arrived at Guildford at 1417 (booked 1407-1408) using platform 4 leaving at and being given priority over a delayed Portsmouth train. 2O40 followed at 1420. In the meantime, the northbound service on the opposite side of the hour (booked 1412-1414), having been held in the tunnel to wait for platform 8 to become free, arrived at Guildford at 1424.

2O40 1320 Reading to Redhill https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L83056/2020-09-15/detailed
1O97 1336 Reading to Redhill https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C08498/2020-09-15/detailed
1V50 1330 Gatwick Airport to Reading https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L82061/2020-09-15/detailed

Unfortunately, there have been two days of disruption on the line so a bit difficult to see how things are now working.
 

infobleep

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So, today, we have had a few hours with 3tph Reading to Redhill services during the off peak. Under this timetable, the stopping train xx20 from Reading is overtaken at Guildford by a xx36. In the other direction, the xx00 from Redhill is overtaken by the xx14 from Redhill. The service on the opposite side of the hour goes through Guildford in the opposite direction at about the same time.

Some odd bits from the operation. In particular, I note that it didn't seem to go to plan with the 2V63 1301 Redhill to Reading and 1V82 1315 Redhill to Reading. 2V63 (scheduled 1336-1346) was let out of Guildford to free up platform 8 and 1V82 followed it through (scheduled 1342-1344, actual 1349-1350) to Reading, ending up 21 minutes late in the process (25 minutes late at Wokingham). 1V82 clearly sat on the signals at North Camp, Farnborough and Blackwater awaiting 2V63 to clear the sections ahead - eg 1V82 couldn't leave Blackwater until 2V63 was at Wokingham.

2V63 1301 Redhill to Reading - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L83262/2020-09-15/detailed
1V82 1315 Redhill to Reading - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C08500/2020-09-15/detailed

It appears that platforms 5 and 6 at Guildford were both blocked but that sort of thing is the gamble with the 3tph timetable and passing at Guildford.

The next sequence in the other direction didn't really work either. 2O40 1320 Reading to Redhill arrived at Guildford platform 8 (booked 1403-1413) at 1409. The following 1O97 1336 Reading to Redhill lost time at North Camp and arrived at Guildford at 1417 (booked 1407-1408) using platform 4 leaving at and being given priority over a delayed Portsmouth train. 2O40 followed at 1420. In the meantime, the northbound service on the opposite side of the hour (booked 1412-1414), having been held in the tunnel to wait for platform 8 to become free, arrived at Guildford at 1424.

2O40 1320 Reading to Redhill https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L83056/2020-09-15/detailed
1O97 1336 Reading to Redhill https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C08498/2020-09-15/detailed
1V50 1330 Gatwick Airport to Reading https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L82061/2020-09-15/detailed

Unfortunately, there have been two days of disruption on the line so a bit difficult to see how things are now working.
Thanks for the update. I hadn't thought to check how things went.

Every time I've got the stopping train of late it had time to wait at Guildford. No doubt morphy's law applies whereby as soon as more trains run, suddenly there are problems that didn't occur before and probably not caused by more trains running.
 

JN114

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In particular, I note that it didn't seem to go to plan with the 2V63 1301 Redhill to Reading and 1V82 1315 Redhill to Reading. 2V63 (scheduled 1336-1346) was let out of Guildford to free up platform 8 and 1V82 followed it through (scheduled 1342-1344, actual 1349-1350) to Reading, ending up 21 minutes late in the process (25 minutes late at Wokingham). 1V82 clearly sat on the signals at North Camp, Farnborough and Blackwater awaiting 2V63 to clear the sections ahead - eg 1V82 couldn't leave Blackwater until 2V63 was at Wokingham.

Points failure Aldershot area meant SWR units dumped around Guildford station apparently, unable to overtake with platforms available.

The next sequence in the other direction didn't really work either. 2O40 1320 Reading to Redhill arrived at Guildford platform 8 (booked 1403-1413) at 1409. The following 1O97 1336 Reading to Redhill lost time at North Camp and arrived at Guildford at 1417 (booked 1407-1408) using platform 4 leaving at and being given priority over a delayed Portsmouth train. 2O40 followed at 1420. In the meantime, the northbound service on the opposite side of the hour (booked 1412-1414), having been held in the tunnel to wait for platform 8 to become free, arrived at Guildford at 1424.

The max hold for the stopper to allow a super fast to overtake we “allowed” in the disruption management plans was 5 minutes - deliberately to prevent disruption to westbound services. It seems that this was the first time it was tested in anger and the 5 minutes was exceeded, causing the disruption you mention. I’m sure we’ll all learn from it.

North Downs has been pants the past two days with various issues. On the whole the potential is there for it all to work, but it is strung somewhat on a knife edge.
 

JonathanH

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It seems to me that the option which causes the least overall delay when platform capacity is scarce at Guildford is to bring both the stopper and the train due to overtake into the platform at Guildford into the available platform behind each other and get the passengers to switch units. I imagine that the numbers travelling across Guildford on an overtaken stopper will be small anyway so essentially it would only be the through passengers on the faster train who would need to walk forward to change trains. The other option for the passengers as we saw yesterday is a 20-25 minute delay in the Reading direction and getting asked to change at Redhill in any case in the other direction when the delayed train misses its path to the Airport.

(Obviously, from a fleet point of view it puts units in the wrong place and would be difficult with crew knowledge during the 165/769 transition but it maintains journey times for passengers. Hopefully it wouldn't be needed too often.)

Clearly this is early days.
 

Ianno87

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It seems to me that the option which causes the least overall delay when platform capacity is scarce at Guildford is to bring both the stopper and the train due to overtake into the platform at Guildford into the available platform behind each other and get the passengers to switch units. I imagine that the numbers travelling across Guildford on an overtaken stopper will be small anyway so essentially it would only be the through passengers on the faster train who would need to walk forward to change trains.

That'll take forever with luggage-laden airport passengers. Plus the crew impact to consider.

Plus, unplanned permissive working is not without safety consequences (see the Plymouth collision a few years back).
 

Bikeman78

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That'll take forever with luggage-laden airport passengers. Plus the crew impact to consider.

Plus, unplanned permissive working is not without safety consequences (see the Plymouth collision a few years back).
If the drivers were suitably briefed about the arrangements in the event of late running then they would know what to expect. The risk is very low anyway. At Cardiff Central there are daily unplanned unit swaps, attachments off Canton, platform alterations etc.
 

Deepgreen

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Local instructions are for GWR’s Redhill terminating services on platforms 0 and 2 to stop at the 6 car marker, which is towards the London end of the platform.

A pain for customers walking all that way, especially with luggage, but those are the instructions.
Yes - and I raised the issue formally with Southern (who 'manage' the station), saying that a single, dirt-cheap 3 car stopping board on p0 would allow a sensible stopping point to minimise the distance back to the stairs, but was told it was "impossible" to do as the 'upgrade' had been completed and the "design team had been disbanded" (as if it needed a team to install one stopping board)! Utter rubbish of course, it's just that no-one wanted to take responsibility for this tiny, but significant improvement. One of many failures of the botched p0 project. I've lost count of the number of people I've seen miss (unofficial) connections there because they had to struggle from/to the NDL trains. They may not have been recognised connections but they would have caught their trains if the NDL had stopped at a sensible place. There is no operational reason why NDL trains cannot reverse such that their rear cabs are by the stairs (and I've been on trains where the drivers chose to stop short to be helpful), as down 12 car trains pull right up to the down starter signal - the same spot where NDLs should reverse. Passenger requirements forgotten about again! Since I no longer commute via Redhell (!), I no longer have to suffer or witness the unnecessarily poor journeys that result from this oversight. Edit - the last time I was at Redhill's p0 I believe it was a 5 car marker, not 6.

So, today, we have had a few hours with 3tph Reading to Redhill services during the off peak. Under this timetable, the stopping train xx20 from Reading is overtaken at Guildford by a xx36. In the other direction, the xx00 from Redhill is overtaken by the xx14 from Redhill. The service on the opposite side of the hour goes through Guildford in the opposite direction at about the same time.

Some odd bits from the operation. In particular, I note that it didn't seem to go to plan with the 2V63 1301 Redhill to Reading and 1V82 1315 Redhill to Reading. 2V63 (scheduled 1336-1346) was let out of Guildford to free up platform 8 and 1V82 followed it through (scheduled 1342-1344, actual 1349-1350) to Reading, ending up 21 minutes late in the process (25 minutes late at Wokingham). 1V82 clearly sat on the signals at North Camp, Farnborough and Blackwater awaiting 2V63 to clear the sections ahead - eg 1V82 couldn't leave Blackwater until 2V63 was at Wokingham.

2V63 1301 Redhill to Reading - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L83262/2020-09-15/detailed
1V82 1315 Redhill to Reading - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C08500/2020-09-15/detailed

It appears that platforms 5 and 6 at Guildford were both blocked but that sort of thing is the gamble with the 3tph timetable and passing at Guildford.

The next sequence in the other direction didn't really work either. 2O40 1320 Reading to Redhill arrived at Guildford platform 8 (booked 1403-1413) at 1409. The following 1O97 1336 Reading to Redhill lost time at North Camp and arrived at Guildford at 1417 (booked 1407-1408) using platform 4 leaving at and being given priority over a delayed Portsmouth train. 2O40 followed at 1420. In the meantime, the northbound service on the opposite side of the hour (booked 1412-1414), having been held in the tunnel to wait for platform 8 to become free, arrived at Guildford at 1424.

2O40 1320 Reading to Redhill https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L83056/2020-09-15/detailed
1O97 1336 Reading to Redhill https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C08498/2020-09-15/detailed
1V50 1330 Gatwick Airport to Reading https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L82061/2020-09-15/detailed

Unfortunately, there have been two days of disruption on the line so a bit difficult to see how things are now working.
Why have we had a few days of 3tph? Edit - answered my own question as I see that 3tph is now timetabled!! I had no idea (haven't been on a train since February, sadly), as I thought the problems were insurmountable. Ironic that it's at a time when travel demand is so low. GWR's site makes no mention of the improvement, either on its general pages or the specific timetable - has there been any publicity around this at all, or do they not want people to use the new service so that they can justify its withdrawal?
 
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infobleep

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It seems to me that the option which causes the least overall delay when platform capacity is scarce at Guildford is to bring both the stopper and the train due to overtake into the platform at Guildford into the available platform behind each other and get the passengers to switch units. I imagine that the numbers travelling across Guildford on an overtaken stopper will be small anyway so essentially it would only be the through passengers on the faster train who would need to walk forward to change trains. The other option for the passengers as we saw yesterday is a 20-25 minute delay in the Reading direction and getting asked to change at Redhill in any case in the other direction when the delayed train misses its path to the Airport.

(Obviously, from a fleet point of view it puts units in the wrong place and would be difficult with crew knowledge during the 165/769 transition but it maintains journey times for passengers. Hopefully it wouldn't be needed too often.)

Clearly this is early days.
I have suggested similar things on South West Trains / South Western Railway.

For example if rhe 8:02 Woking to Waterloo is delayed departing and leaves after the 8:05, it gets stuck behind it, as the 8:05 is meant to wait at West Byfleet to even out the services through Surbtion. Why not swop them round. They both stop at the same stations. Once at Waterloo then run the next services as they should be. In this case people can't change trains but they wouldn't need to.

With the services to Reading, once they reach Reading they could then run as intended for their next service.

It would require the driver to remember the stopping pattern had changed.
 

Deepgreen

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I've also noticed that trains are now hooting (two-tone, I'm glad to say) for the AHB crossing at Brockham (Chalk Pit Lane). Is this part of the level crossing safety improvements required on the route for 3tph?
 

infobleep

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Yes - and I raised the issue formally with Southern (who 'manage' the station), saying that a single, dirt-cheap 3 car stopping board on p0 would allow a sensible stopping point to minimise the distance back to the stairs, but was told it was "impossible" to do as the 'upgrade' had been completed and the "design team had been disbanded" (as if it needed a team to install one stopping board)! Utter rubbish of course, it's just that no-one wanted to take responsibility for this tiny, but significant improvement. One of many failures of the botched p0 project. I've lost count of the number of people I've seen miss (unofficial) connections there because they had to struggle from/to the NDL trains. They may not have been recognised connections but they would have caught their trains if the NDL had stopped at a sensible place. There is no operational reason why NDL trains cannot reverse such that their rear cabs are by the stairs (and I've been on trains where the drivers chose to stop short to be helpful), as down 12 car trains pull right up to the down starter signal - the same spot where NDLs should reverse. Passenger requirements forgotten about again! Since I no longer commute via Redhell (!), I no longer have to suffer or witness the unnecessarily poor journeys that result from this oversight. Edit - the last time I was at Redhill's p0 I believe it was a 5 car marker, not 6.


Why have we had a few days of 3tph? Edit - answered my own question as I see that 3tph is now timetabled!! I had no idea (haven't been on a train since February, sadly), as I thought the problems were insurmountable. Ironic that it's at a time when travel demand is so low. GWR's site makes no mention of the improvement, either on its general pages or the specific timetable - has there been any publicity around this at all, or do they not want people to use the new service so that they can justify its withdrawal?
I was under the impression that they were testing oppprational robustness and not passenger usage. So at the moment they don't care whose using it, just will it work operationally. Bit like testing a new train, just this one has passengers on it.

It at least allows one to board the x55 services from Redhill south.
 

DorkingMain

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I have suggested similar things on South West Trains / South Western Railway.

For example if rhe 8:02 Woking to Waterloo is delayed departing and leaves after the 8:05, it gets stuck behind it, as the 8:05 is meant to wait at West Byfleet to even out the services through Surbtion. Why not swop them round. They both stop at the same stations. Once at Waterloo then run the next services as they should be. In this case people can't change trains but they wouldn't need to.

With the services to Reading, once they reach Reading they could then run as intended for their next service.

It would require the driver to remember the stopping pattern had changed.

Swapping services around like that causes all sorts of complications for onward working, particularly if crew are due to be relieved mid-way down the route / working
 

JonathanH

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Why have we had a few days of 3tph? Edit - answered my own question as I see that 3tph is now timetabled!! I had no idea (haven't been on a train since February, sadly), as I thought the problems were insurmountable. Ironic that it's at a time when travel demand is so low. GWR's site makes no mention of the improvement, either on its general pages or the specific timetable - has there been any publicity around this at all, or do they not want people to use the new service so that they can justify its withdrawal?
It is timetabled on a limited basis - basically for three or four hours in the middle of the day (1100-1400 towards Redhill, 1100-1500 back) and all day on Saturdays and the extra 'fast' service doesn't go to Gatwick - the postings above appear to indicate that this is effectively a test to see whether the timetable works with the operation at Guildford - so probably not the sort of thing GWR want to make a lot of publicity about until it is proved to work.

That'll take forever with luggage-laden airport passengers. Plus the crew impact to consider.
Yes, I agree that Guildford, with its narrow platform space alongside the subway and stair access is not necessarily the best place to orchestrate a switch of trains, particularly if the platform staff stand at the point between the two units. I don't think anyone would want passengers switching between trains on a regular basis and there were clearly difficult circumstances yesterday.

However, it also has to be recognised that passengers sat on a 'fast' train that gets stuck behind a stopping one are going to suffer a substantial delay because of the signalling headways. This means that they either end up being 20 minutes late into Reading or they are going to have to change at Redhill as the train misses its path to Gatwick. From experience, it is pretty frustrating to be held at the signals between North Camp and Wokingham when a fast train follows a stopper.

How the timetable responds in disruption will clearly be the thing that makes or breaks it (along obviously with patronage / demand).

It would require the driver to remember the stopping pattern had changed.
I envisage that the crew would switch units at Guildford with their passengers if this approach was followed but I recognise that this may be naive in terms of set up time and delay. However, I think it would minimise overall delay and the knock on effect on the next service relative to having the fast follow the stopper. The 3tph timetable potentially has some fairly tight turnarounds at Reading, although it looks like those have been lengthened in this phase.
 

DorkingMain

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It seems to me that the option which causes the least overall delay when platform capacity is scarce at Guildford is to bring both the stopper and the train due to overtake into the platform at Guildford into the available platform behind each other and get the passengers to switch units. I imagine that the numbers travelling across Guildford on an overtaken stopper will be small anyway so essentially it would only be the through passengers on the faster train who would need to walk forward to change trains. The other option for the passengers as we saw yesterday is a 20-25 minute delay in the Reading direction and getting asked to change at Redhill in any case in the other direction when the delayed train misses its path to the Airport.

(Obviously, from a fleet point of view it puts units in the wrong place and would be difficult with crew knowledge during the 165/769 transition but it maintains journey times for passengers. Hopefully it wouldn't be needed too often.)

Clearly this is early days.

Guildford isn't cleared for this sort of permissive working for various reasons.
 

infobleep

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Swapping services around like that causes all sorts of complications for onward working, particularly if crew are due to be relieved mid-way down the route / working
Fair enough.

In my case I wasn't aware of crew being relieved but I do take your point on this it did lead to delays and congestion but not swooping them round though probably delay repay too. The fast lines between Surbtion and Waterloo are busy enough as it is, without congestion. However I do take your point. And as I'm going off topic I'll leave it there.
 
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Dibbo4025

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Fair enough.

In my case I wasn't aware of crew being relieved but I do take your point on this it did lead to delays and congestion but not swooping them round though probably delay repay too. The fast lines between Surbtion and Waterloo are busy enough as it is, without congestion. However I do take your point. And as I'm going off topic I'll leave it there.
Tbh the bigger problem NR where I am at least are not keen on changing a train's description en route - can cause a lot of problems
 

Deepgreen

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It is timetabled on a limited basis - basically for three or four hours in the middle of the day (1100-1400 towards Redhill, 1100-1500 back) and all day on Saturdays and the extra 'fast' service doesn't go to Gatwick - the postings above appear to indicate that this is effectively a test to see whether the timetable works with the operation at Guildford - so probably not the sort of thing GWR want to make a lot of publicity about until it is proved to work.
Thanks for that. Of course, it does allow a greater spread of passengers to improve social distancing, so that may be a short-term benefit - if GWR had publicised it on at least that basis, it might have helped spread the load. Perhaps word will get round about the extras and they will be used.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Guildford isn't cleared for this sort of permissive working for various reasons.

Guildford is cleared for that sort of permissive working (platform sharing as opposed to attaching) in all but platform 4.

Source the Sectional Appendix
 

Meerkat

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Yes, I agree that Guildford, with its narrow platform space alongside the subway and stair access is not necessarily the best place to orchestrate a switch of trains
Guildford platforms can barely cope with the normal number of passengers getting on and off peak NDL trains (not helped at all by GWR allowing bikes on board.....)!
Ive waited to get on one before and started to wonder whether people were walking through from the other side as the swarm of people getting off seemed more than the capacity of the train!
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Saturday will be the real test! Although I‘m led to understand there are engineering works somewhere in SWR land meaning Alton trains are being diverted via Guildford with reversals, so it’s more than likely to go wrong at some point as that sounds like rather a lot of trains to accommodate.
 

DorkingMain

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Saturday will be the real test! Although I‘m led to understand there are engineering works somewhere in SWR land meaning Alton trains are being diverted via Guildford with reversals, so it’s more than likely to go wrong at some point as that sounds like rather a lot of trains to accommodate.

In effect it will just be the Guildford - Farnham shuttles with an extra two stops
 

paul1609

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Any chance of the third North Downs train taking over the Redhill to Tonbridge Shuttle and being extended to Ashford International?
Id certainly use an avoiding London link to Reading and the West.
 

Bald Rick

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Any chance of the third North Downs train taking over the Redhill to Tonbridge Shuttle and being extended to Ashford International?
Id certainly use an avoiding London link to Reading and the West.

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