4 day week / 6 day week

[Leeds Driver]

Curious about working patterns at other depots.

Northern at Leeds is mostly 6 in a row which personally I’m not a fan of, either 6 3am get ups in a row or 6 days of not seeing your family! But I know others like it because of the clumps of NOD days you end up with.

I know Skipton do a 4 day week, which was kind of what I was expecting when I first entered the industry as it’s often sold as one of the perks of the job.

Just wondering what is the norm at other TOCs/depots?

 

[Twotwo]

4 days a week. Rest days are either mon/tue, wed/thur, fri/sat or mon/sat. Long weekend every 3 weeks. And you stay the same pattern all week so no going on lates to earlies and vice versa in the same week.

 

[Leeds Driver]

4 days a week. Rest days are either mon/tue, wed/thur, fri/sat or mon/sat. Long weekend every 3 weeks. And you stay the same pattern all week so no going on lates to earlies and vice versa in the same week.

Sounds ideal, where’s that at?

 

[whoosh]

I think @Twotwo sounds like they have Sundays outside the working week, and Northern at Leeds (and Skipton) have Sundays inside, so will be completely different.

There are places that are 4 day weeks, and some that are average 4 day weeks. Sounds like @Leeds Driver, yours is an average 4 day week.

Here's one from a few years ago at Derby, East Midlands. It's a 10 week repeating pattern and a 4 day week except weeks 9,10; 19,20, etc. which are 5 and 3 days at work - so eight of ten weeks are a true four day week, and the remaining two an average.

There's 50% of Sundays at work (which is quite high), but only 50% of Saturdays at work too (which is better than the two in three Saturdays at work previously, like Twotwo's roster, before Sundays were placed in the working week). All weekends off (50% of them) are long weekends of at least 4 days.

 

[sorry4thedelay]

Curious about working patterns at other depots.

Northern at Leeds is mostly 6 in a row which personally I’m not a fan of, either 6 3am get ups in a row or 6 days of not seeing your family! But I know others like it because of the clumps of NOD days you end up with.

I know Skipton do a 4 day week, which was kind of what I was expecting when I first entered the industry as it’s often sold as one of the perks of the job.

Just wondering what is the norm at other TOCs/depots?

I don't know how there isn't more discord about the 'average' four day week as it usually ends up as a 6-7 day working run with 50 plus hours- no where near a four day, 35 hour week. Yes it suits some who like a large run on with a large run off but for others its way to much; secondly Its also terrible for fatigue- in an industry that is supposed to take this into account. Any place other than rail where your contract states something this is what you do- in rail the working week ends up being a play on words..... The strange thing is there is nothing stopping a roster of a literal four day week. I'm willing to bet as the industry goes through changes- staff would opt for shorter periods at work- 'work to live, not live to work'.

 

[AD15]

Curious about working patterns at other depots.

Northern at Leeds is mostly 6 in a row which personally I’m not a fan of, either 6 3am get ups in a row or 6 days of not seeing your family! But I know others like it because of the clumps of NOD days you end up with.

I know Skipton do a 4 day week, which was kind of what I was expecting when I first entered the industry as it’s often sold as one of the perks of the job.

Just wondering what is the norm at other TOCs/depots?

Curious about working patterns at other depots.

Northern at Leeds is mostly 6 in a row which personally I’m not a fan of, either 63am get ups in a row or 6 days of not seeing your family! But I know others like it because of the clumps of NOD days you end up with.

I know Skipton do a 4 day week, which was kind of what I was expecting when I first entered the industry as it’s often sold as one of the perks of the job.

Just wondering what is the norm at other TOCs/depots?

F

Curious about working patterns at other depots.

Northern at Leeds is mostly 6 in a row which personally I’m not a fan of, either 6 3am get ups in a row or 6 days of not seeing your family! But I know others like it because of the clumps of NOD days you end up with.

I know Skipton do a 4 day week, which was kind of what I was expecting when I first entered the industry as it’s often sold as one of the perks of the job.

Just wondering what is the norm at other TOCs/depots?

I'd rather do 6 days at 3am than all day every day going around the triangle at Skipton.

Unless things have changed in the 2 years I've left Leeds, never had 3am (0330 starts sometimes) and if you did, it wasn't for 6 day on the bounce.

 

[Leeds Driver]

I don't know how there isn't more discord about the 'average' four day week as it usually ends up as a 6-7 day working run with 50 plus hours- no where near a four day, 35 hour week. Yes it suits some who like a large run on with a large run off but for others its way to much; secondly Its also terrible for fatigue- in an industry that is supposed to take this into account. Any place other than rail where your contract states something this is what you do- in rail the working week ends up being a play on words..... The strange thing is there is nothing stopping a roster of a literal four day week. I'm willing to bet as the industry goes through changes- staff would opt for shorter periods at work- 'work to live, not live to work'.

I agree on the fatigue point, I’m not aware of other safety critical industries where 6 on the bounce is the norm. Even if 4 on the bounce wasn’t possible surely 5 would be more sustainable.

There doesn’t seem to any consideration of fatigue when rosters build the links. It’s well researched that starting gradually later each day is beneficial rather than having a 5am start followed by a 6am start followed by a 4am start etc.

Re 3am starts at Leeds, I didn’t say there were any, I said 3am get ups, which is pretty common for the 3.50/4ish starts.

 

[AD15]

Re 3am starts at Leeds, I didn’t say there were any, I said 3am get ups, which is pretty common for the 3.50/4ish starts.

Maybe train driving isn't for you then, did you look into the role at all before deciding to pursue a career in it?

You should sit on the "top table" you'd fit right it .

 

[Leeds Driver]

Maybe train driving isn't for you then, did you look into the role at all before deciding to pursue a career in it?

You should sit on the "top table" you'd fit right it .

Do you think it’s well publicised that you regularly work 6 days in a row as a driver? I don’t, hence why I’m intrigued how other depots work - and indeed if it is the norm nationally or not.

Not sure why you’ve commented to be honest if you’ve nothing to add to the discussion.

 

[AD15]

Just a reality check. It's a fantastic job with good pay. Don't get that type of money doing a 0800-1430 job usually. I did the 6 days, still do occasionally, but at least at Northern after 6 on, we used to get at least 3 or 4 off. Sometimes 5. So it's swings and round a bouts.

 

[Qwerty133]

I don't know how there isn't more discord about the 'average' four day week as it usually ends up as a 6-7 day working run with 50 plus hours- no where near a four day, 35 hour week. Yes it suits some who like a large run on with a large run off but for others its way to much; secondly Its also terrible for fatigue- in an industry that is supposed to take this into account. Any place other than rail where your contract states something this is what you do- in rail the working week ends up being a play on words..... The strange thing is there is nothing stopping a roster of a literal four day week. I'm willing to bet as the industry goes through changes- staff would opt for shorter periods at work- 'work to live, not live to work'.

A fixed 4 on 3 off pattern wouldn’t work because people would end up working the same days each week and those who ended up working weekends would find it extremely unfair. It is likely that any attempt to guarantee both a fixed 4 day week and never working more than 4 days in a row would require days off to be split much more than at current and in many cases people having one day off between 2 shifts which would be unpopular with most given they wouldn’t be able to drink or do various other things due to the need to be fit for duty the following day.

 

[43066]

Curious about working patterns at other depots.

Northern at Leeds is mostly 6 in a row which personally I’m not a fan of, either 6 3am get ups in a row or 6 days of not seeing your family! But I know others like it because of the clumps of NOD days you end up with.

I know Skipton do a 4 day week, which was kind of what I was expecting when I first entered the industry as it’s often sold as one of the perks of the job.

Just wondering what is the norm at other TOCs/depots?

The Leeds roster doesn’t sound great. Where I am we have a five day long weekend every three weeks and don’t generally do more than five on, however there are some single rest days with lates going into earlies.

My previous depot had a roster where you never did more than four on, and never had less than two off in a row. I probably preferred the latter arrangement, but people seem very wedded to the long weekend.

I think @Twotwo sounds like they have Sundays outside the working week, and Northern at Leeds (and Skipton) have Sundays inside, so will be completely different.

There are places that are 4 day weeks, and some that are average 4 day weeks. Sounds like @Leeds Driver, yours is an average 4 day week.

Here's one from a few years ago at Derby, East Midlands. It's a 10 week repeating pattern and a 4 day week except weeks 9,10; 19,20, etc. which are 5 and 3 days at work - so eight of ten weeks are a true four day week, and the remaining two an average.

There's 50% of Sundays at work (which is quite high), but only 50% of Saturdays at work too (which is better than the two in three Saturdays at work previously, like Twotwo's roster, before Sundays were placed in the working week). All weekends off (50% of them) are long weekends of at least 4 days.

Derby have some absolutely horrendous start and finish times. They finish so late that in the summer, when the crew working the last one off London get back to base, the sun is coming up, and they can say “morning” to the early shift booking on.

 

[Horizon22]

I don't know how there isn't more discord about the 'average' four day week as it usually ends up as a 6-7 day working run with 50 plus hours- no where near a four day, 35 hour week. Yes it suits some who like a large run on with a large run off but for others its way to much; secondly Its also terrible for fatigue- in an industry that is supposed to take this into account. Any place other than rail where your contract states something this is what you do- in rail the working week ends up being a play on words..... The strange thing is there is nothing stopping a roster of a literal four day week. I'm willing to bet as the industry goes through changes- staff would opt for shorter periods at work- 'work to live, not live to work'.

That's not really how it works though.

Anywhere where there is a roster means it averages out to a 35-hour week over X weeks. So if you end up doing a "6-7 working run with 50 plus hours", you'll also have a sub 20 hour week at some point with 4+ days off. It has to balance out in the end.

Do you think it’s well publicised that you regularly work 6 days in a row as a driver? I don’t, hence why I’m intrigued how other depots work - and indeed if it is the norm nationally or not.

Not sure why you’ve commented to be honest if you’ve nothing to add to the discussion.

No but is a "4 day week" ever advertised much either? Anyone who understands basic rostering knows that this can happen, but there are also rosters which keep the pure 4 day week rotating around. It can be achieved in several ways.

I agree on the fatigue point, I’m not aware of other safety critical industries where 6 on the bounce is the norm.

Well there are plenty of railway roles with rosters of "6 on the bounce" so would politely suggest that's a lack of awareness on your part.

You can have longer runs but then you get a longer stretch of RDs. And if you have shorter runs, you have fewer RDs blocks (and sometimes single ones going from late > RD > early). Or a mix of both. As long as the contracted hours are met over a set period and it doesn't breach the fatigue matrix, then it is fine.

Roster creation and management is slightly complex (especially for crew who have certain T&Cs) and people tend to have very strong views on them, so it's never possible to keep everyone happy!

 

[Evarg]

Elizabeth Line - Old Oak Common (Line 1-10 Sample)

- Average 34 hour week
- 2 weeks off in every 10 week block
- 20 out of 30 annual leave days rostered
- Earliest book-on 04:06; latest book-off 01:12
- 3× lines of nights in 150 line roster (not shown)

Discuss

 

[SWR_DRIVER]

Elizabeth Line - Old Oak Common (Line 1-10 Sample)

- Average 34 hour week
- 2 weeks off in every 10 week block
- 20 out of 30 annual leave days rostered
- Earliest book-on 04:06; latest book-off 01:12
- 3× lines of nights in 150 line roster (not shown)

Discuss

View attachment 168239

On first appearance it looks good, but not having a weekend off for an entire month...

 

[Evarg]

On first appearance it looks good, but not having a weekend off for an entire month...

There are blocks in the roster where the weekends are broken up, but yes, the bottom line is you work 5/10 Saturdays and 4/10 Sundays, which is the maximum the T&Cs allow. Rather than living for the weekend, you live for the two weeks off!

 

[Leeds Driver]

That's not really how it works though.

Anywhere where there is a roster means it averages out to a 35-hour week over X weeks. So if you end up doing a "6-7 working run with 50 plus hours", you'll also have a sub 20 hour week at some point with 4+ days off. It has to balance out in the end.



No but is a "4 day week" ever advertised much either? Anyone who understands basic rostering knows that this can happen, but there are also rosters which keep the pure 4 day week rotating around. It can be achieved in several ways.



Well there are plenty of railway roles with rosters of "6 on the bounce" so would politely suggest that's a lack of awareness on your part.

You can have longer runs but then you get a longer stretch of RDs. And if you have shorter runs, you have fewer RDs blocks (and sometimes single ones going from late > RD > early). Or a mix of both. As long as the contracted hours are met over a set period and it doesn't breach the fatigue matrix, then it is fine.

Roster creation and management is slightly complex (especially for crew who have certain T&Cs) and people tend to have very strong views on them, so it's never possible to keep everyone happy!

I’m aware how rosters work having designed them in the NHS. I expected the 35 hours would be an average but didn’t think it would be as extreme as 60 ish hours one week and 20 ish hours the next, because logically that makes no sense (especially with how leave works here, everyone will just book off the 60 hour weeks!)

I find it interesting that so far from what I’ve seen on the railway, fatigue and safety seem to take a backseat in roster design. All the research is out there, non of it seems to be being used ‍♂️

 

[12LDA28C]

I’m aware how rosters work having designed them in the NHS. I expected the 35 hours would be an average but didn’t think it would be as extreme as 60 ish hours one week and 20 ish hours the next, because logically that makes no sense (especially with how leave works here, everyone will just book off the 60 hour weeks!)

I find it interesting that so far from what I’ve seen on the railway, fatigue and safety seem to take a backseat in roster design. All the research is out there, non of it seems to be being used ‍♂️

Are your local Union reps not involved in rostering at all? They certainly are at some TOCs and will do their best to produce or at least have some input into a roster that aims to keep fatigue to a minimum, as well as ensuring diagrams are ‘legal’ of course.

 

[43066]

I’m aware how rosters work having designed them in the NHS. I expected the 35 hours would be an average but didn’t think it would be as extreme as 60 ish hours one week and 20 ish hours the next, because logically that makes no sense (especially with how leave works here, everyone will just book off the 60 hour weeks!)

I find it interesting that so far from what I’ve seen on the railway, fatigue and safety seem to take a backseat in roster design. All the research is out there, non of it seems to be being used ‍♂️

It’s fairly standard that, if you’re somewhere where you have a recurring long weekend, you’ll have long runs of days on - we do six on the bounce which is 52.5 hours average, potentially up to 60 hours if you get several long jobs from spare.

In terms of booking weeks off you’re presumably aware most of your leave is rostered so can’t easily be changed. You can request adhoc days (granted on a first come first served basis), and booking a week of those off would use a lot in one go (we get 12 per year). Most would rather tag adhoc days onto the long weekends to get a long run of days off for very little annual leave.

It varies by TOC and depot but, as a general point, I completely agree the rosters tend to be very poor from a fatigue point of view, and make a mockery of an industry that supposedly prides itself on safety.

 

[skyhigh]

Are your local Union reps not involved in rostering at all? They certainly are at some TOCs and will do their best to produce or at least have some input into a roster that aims to keep fatigue to a minimum, as well as ensuring diagrams are ‘legal’ of course.

There was, very recently, a proposed new roster pattern designed by the local union reps in response to a management proposal.

It was designed to eliminate 6 day weeks, but the trade off was that there were shorter runs of rest days (including sole rest days occasionally). It was the only way that the hours worked.

It went out to member consultation and was resoundingly rejected. Drivers preferred the current pattern.

 

[miklcct]

A fixed 4 on 3 off pattern wouldn’t work because people would end up working the same days each week and those who ended up working weekends would find it extremely unfair. It is likely that any attempt to guarantee both a fixed 4 day week and never working more than 4 days in a row would require days off to be split much more than at current and in many cases people having one day off between 2 shifts which would be unpopular with most given they wouldn’t be able to drink or do various other things due to the need to be fit for duty the following day.

Isn't it a good idea to have the fixed weekend drivers a higher salary instead, and everyone working on fixed days of weeks on fixed rosters, like an office job?

 

[Horizon22]

I’m aware how rosters work having designed them in the NHS. I expected the 35 hours would be an average but didn’t think it would be as extreme as 60 ish hours one week and 20 ish hours the next, because logically that makes no sense (especially with how leave works here, everyone will just book off the 60 hour weeks!)

I find it interesting that so far from what I’ve seen on the railway, fatigue and safety seem to take a backseat in roster design. All the research is out there, non of it seems to be being used ‍♂️

It makes perfect logical sense. Otherwise you’d be just working 9-5 (or early and late)Monday-Friday which would of course defeats the point of shift work which has varied timings (e.g required staff numbers on different days and times in the week). You may only need 3/10 people on a Sunday but 6/10 on a weekday for instance.

There was, very recently, a proposed new roster pattern designed by the local union reps in response to a management proposal.

It was designed to eliminate 6 day weeks, but the trade off was that there were shorter runs of rest days (including sole rest days occasionally). It was the only way that the hours worked.

It went out to member consultation and was resoundingly rejected. Drivers preferred the current pattern.

It’s always give and take on a roster. I’ve helped make some and staff always want the best of both worlds which is physically impossible to meet when considering the number of hours required. There is always an element of compromise.

 

[Leeds Driver]

Isn't it a good idea to have the fixed weekend drivers a higher salary instead, and everyone working on fixed days of weeks on fixed rosters, like an office job?

It would of course make sense for those with a higher weekend frequency to be paid more, those with higher unsocial hours to be paid more etc, but this is the railway!

My understanding is aslef wanted everything built in to a base salary so everything was pensionable. I don’t understand why they didn’t just advocate for the allowances being pensionable which would have been possible.

It makes perfect logical sense. Otherwise you’d be just working 9-5 (or early and late)Monday-Friday which would of course defeats the point of shift work which has varied timings (e.g required staff numbers on different days and times in the week). You may only need 3/10 people on a Sunday but 6/10 on a weekday for instance.



It’s always give and take on a roster. I’ve helped make some and staff always want the best of both worlds which is physically impossible to meet when considering the number of hours required. There is always an element of compromise.

At Leeds a job can be a minimum of 5 hours and max of 10, so you can work 6 days and do 60 hours, have 2 days off, then work 6 days but only do 30 hours.

In previous roles shifts lengths have been fixed (9 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours etc). Obviously this isn’t possible as we fit around the timetable, but getting a bit more work in to these little 5/6 hour jobs would seem like a good starting point so you’re not in for 6 days but doing less than your average week!

It’s fairly standard that, if you’re somewhere where you have a recurring long weekend, you’ll have long runs of days on - we do six on the bounce which is 52.5 hours average, potentially up to 60 hours if you get several long jobs from spare.

In terms of booking weeks off you’re presumably aware most of your leave is rostered so can’t easily be changed. You can request adhoc days (granted on a first come first served basis), and booking a week of those off would use a lot in one go (we get 12 per year). Most would rather tag adhoc days onto the long weekends to get a long run of days off for very little annual leave.

It varies by TOC and depot but, as a general point, I completely agree the rosters tend to be very poor from a fatigue point of view, and make a mockery of an industry that supposedly prides itself on safety.

Yes weekly is leave is rostered, and you are allowed to swap, so guess what happens. If you’ve been allocated leave on a week you’re working 30 hours, you swap it so you’re on leave a week you’re working 60 hours.

 

[43066]

Yes weekly is leave is rostered, and you are allowed to swap, so guess what happens. If you’ve been allocated leave on a week you’re working 30 hours, you swap it so you’re on leave a week you’re working 60 hours.

Generally not what happens in my experience. You’ll soon run out of favours, and why would anyone swap the other way (unless it’s to get out of nights etc.)?

You won’t know until that week how many hours you will actually work, in any case, as it depends what you pick up of spare.

I assume you’re either very new to the industry or new to the driving grade?

 

[Horizon22]

At Leeds a job can be a minimum of 5 hours and max of 10, so you can work 6 days and do 60 hours, have 2 days off, then work 6 days but only do 30 hours.

In reality though the average turn length is much more likely to be 8-9hr and what you have stated is highly unlikely to happen or with any regularity. Can you provide an example of that on the base roster? There’s not going to be many 5hr jobs, and even less likely to be 6 in a row!

I will leave this here but there are lots of experienced drivers advising you on why things occur the way that they do and how the roster works.

 

[Adam0984]

Leeds is a HUGE job and you'd need a large percentage of people agree to get a roster change. A lot of drivers like the long blocks off to get a weeks holiday for 1 or 2 rest days, similarly a fortnight off for 1 weekly leave block. You'd imagine (knowing a lot of our drivers) you'd get a lot of opposition to a fixed pattern roster (same as conductors long weekend (fri-tue) every 3 weeks) but also you'd probably get a lot of support on the same basis of yourself. Changes are coming because of the analysis of fatigue and you may get what you want to some degree

 

[12LDA28C]

Isn't it a good idea to have the fixed weekend drivers a higher salary instead, and everyone working on fixed days of weeks on fixed rosters, like an office job?

No, not a good idea as it creates a two-tier system for drivers doing essentially exactly the same job but on different days of the week. What would then happen if a 'weekday' driver worked a Rest Day on a Saturday, or a 'weekend' driver did the same on a Wednesday, for example? Which rate of pay would the RDW be paid at?

I'm not aware of any TOC that has adopted this approach as it's complex, divisive and most likely unworkable.

 

[sorry4thedelay]

Leeds is a HUGE job and you'd need a large percentage of people agree to get a roster change. A lot of drivers like the long blocks off to get a weeks holiday for 1 or 2 rest days, similarly a fortnight off for 1 weekly leave block. You'd imagine (knowing a lot of our drivers) you'd get a lot of opposition to a fixed pattern roster (same as conductors long weekend (fri-tue) every 3 weeks) but also you'd probably get a lot of support on the same basis of yourself. Changes are coming because of the analysis of fatigue and you may get what you want to some degree

In my experience a large percentage of these long hour weeks consist of unproductive time; sitting around doing absolutely nothing or waiting for Trains to turn up.... It's wasted time for the sake of getting the required rostered hours (an antiquated way of working)...This equates to longer weeks.... Streamlining jobs would instantly reduce the amount of days worked. In the real world ie. outside of rail- this would be beneficial to the company as they wouldn't be paying hundreds of people for zero productivity hours.

 

[greatkingrat]

In my experience a large percentage of these long hour weeks consist of unproductive time; sitting around doing absolutely nothing or waiting for Trains to turn up.... It's wasted time for the sake of getting the required rostered hours (an antiquated way of working)...This equates to longer weeks.... Streamlining jobs would instantly reduce the amount of days worked. In the real world ie. outside of rail- this would be beneficial to the company as they wouldn't be paying hundreds of people for zero productivity hours.

Easier said than done. Just because my minimum break finishes at 1237, doesn't mean there is necessarily a train at 1238 for me to drive. Even if you could magically produce a roster with no downtime, that doesn't mean the company is suddenly going to give you extra days off, just that they would need fewer drivers.

Plus then you get issues when there is disruption and everyone is on bare minimum PNBs causing the service to collapse because everyone is in the wrong place.

 

[Adam0984]

For the company its brilliant, for the worker it means less drivers required and more fatigue with bare minimum breaks.
Also more disruption when train 1 is late in, bare break and then train 2 it means train 2 is late out l, where as 'unproductive' time mops up that delay on train 1 and drivers can be stepped up if they're sat for 2 hours they can be used to cover a shortage after 40 mins