4 x 456's?

[Nogoohwell]

Yesterday, the 19:02 Waterloo to Guildford was formed of 4 x 456's. I though I read somewhere that SWR could only work trains of maximum 3 separate parts due to the guard/driver not being able to get to the other parts of the train in an emergency?

Is this right? This is the first time I've ever seen this formation, anyone else know of this formation being used before?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yesterday, the 19:02 Waterloo to Guildford was formed of 4 x 456's. I though I read somewhere that SWR could only work trains of maximum 3 separate parts due to the guard/driver not being able to get to the other parts of the train in an emergency?

Is this right? This is the first time I've ever seen this formation, anyone else know of this formation being used before?

If you know this information because such was the allocation on RTT, sometimes the website gets it wrong

 

[Watershed]

Yesterday, the 19:02 Waterloo to Guildford was formed of 4 x 456's. I though I read somewhere that SWR could only work trains of maximum 3 separate parts due to the guard/driver not being able to get to the other parts of the train in an emergency?

Is this right? This is the first time I've ever seen this formation, anyone else know of this formation being used before?

As far as I can tell, the formation was 455714 followed by 456016 and 456012, so three parts rather than four.

 

[JonathanH]

If you know this information because such was the allocation on RTT, sometimes the website gets it wrong

If anything is inaccurately, it is the data feed that gets it wrong - not the website - there is a difference. As the previous poster points out, RTT doesn't show 4x456 on the closest train to the cited service.

I note the 455+2x456 combination shown yesterday on the 1903 London Waterloo to Guildford is out today formed as it was yesterday.

Maybe a missighting by the OP, especially as there was no 1902 from Waterloo and SWR aren't splitting up and reforming 8-car formations during the day at the moment.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The data feed gets it wrong - not the website - there is a difference.

The same point is still there.

 

[Nogoohwell]

I was at Clapham Junction and observed the train arriving and leaving. It was the 19:12 Departure from Clapham to Guildford, very surprised to see it. Had to look twice to check it out, should have taken a photo.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I was at Clapham Junction and observed the train arriving and leaving. It was the 19:12 Departure from Clapham to Guildford, very surprised to see it. Had to look twice to check it out, should have taken a photo.

What and it was definitely four 456s? How strange!

 

[DelW]

Yesterday, the 19:02 Waterloo to Guildford was formed of 4 x 456's. I though I read somewhere that SWR could only work trains of maximum 3 separate parts due to the guard/driver not being able to get to the other parts of the train in an emergency?

Is this right? This is the first time I've ever seen this formation, anyone else know of this formation being used before?

Would it be acceptable to run a 4 x 2-car train if one set was locked out of use?

The North Downs is limited to a single 3-car set in passenger service, but I've travelled in one attached to a second OOU unit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is this, out of interest? Surely the access issue exists as soon as you have 2 ungangwayed units, and the issue of having one unit completely unstaffed exists as soon as you have 3 (or 2 if it's DOO)?

 

[bb21]

I was at Clapham Junction and observed the train arriving and leaving. It was the 19:12 Departure from Clapham to Guildford, very surprised to see it. Had to look twice to check it out, should have taken a photo.

Max 3 sets of 456 permitted in formation so you must have seen it wrong, or someone will get in to serious trouble.

As confirmed above, 5714+6012+6016 allocated. No reformations during the day.

 

[bb21]

Why is this, out of interest? Surely the access issue exists as soon as you have 2 ungangwayed units, and the issue of having one unit completely unstaffed exists as soon as you have 3 (or 2 if it's DOO)?

Possibly a myth as the guard is not barred from working from the front set of a double 707.

 

[Kite159]

Possibly a myth as the guard is not barred from working from the front set of a double 707.

And in the past there has been triple 456s run to Hampton Court on Sundays so one of those units would have been unstaffed

 

[Domh245]

And in the past there has been triple 456s run to Hampton Court on Sundays so one of those units would have been unstaffed

Plus many services at the moment seem to be 455+double 456 (including the one mentioned in the OP), which also leaves one unit without any staff presence

 

[TRAX]

As @bb21 said, this doesn’t look like an issue of "under certain circumstances, 4 units can run together". It sounds like the 456s really aren’t authorised to run as such (in the regulatory sense), with or without passengers.
There’s an authorisation to run each type of train in single, another authorisation for doubles, another for triples…
If I understand it correctly, 456s haven’t got that extra authorisation for a foursome.

 

[D7666]

One reason, no doubt of several, that multiple 456s, like 4x456 are not permitted, is that this is slightly longer than 2x455 or 455+456+456, because of the inter-unit couplers - there are more of them, which is where the extra few cm come from, and there are certain locations where that subtle length difference makes a big difference on 8car stopping points and signal sighting. I believe what Trax has said is right, 4x456 is not authorised, and what I write is probably one of the reasons.

4x466 are likewise not authorised on the SED side, also for 8car length reasons; possibly 3x466 not authorised either although not sure ... ISTR with Networkers someone once mentioned their m.u. control limits them to three units anyway.

Ditto 10car 5x456 or 5x466 or 455+3x456 or 466+3x466 verboten.

 

[jopsuk]

Why is this, out of interest? Surely the access issue exists as soon as you have 2 ungangwayed units, and the issue of having one unit completely unstaffed exists as soon as you have 3 (or 2 if it's DOO)?

A little off topic, but I'll point out here that 3x365, 321, 360 etc have been common on ECML and GEML DOO services

 

[KC1]

I beg to ask but the 456 units were originally with Southern and would have had the same issue; 1 x 455 and 2 x 456. As we know, Southern do not have guards so effectively that would mean two ‘unstaffed’ units which clearly was never an issue for them so why is it such a big issue with SWR?

You can also the same about GA; 3 x 321 / 360s etc.

 

[swt_passenger]

I beg to ask but the 456 units were originally with Southern and would have had the same issue; 1 x 455 and 2 x 456. As we know, Southern do not have guards so effectively that would mean two ‘unstaffed’ units which clearly was never an issue for them so why is it such a big issue with SWR?

You can also the same about GA; 3 x 321 / 360s etc.

I’m sure 1x455 with 2x456 was used regularly on SWT when they first transferred in, but before the 10 car platform extensions were done. I just looked at the SX Carriage Working Notices back in 2016 that are full of entries showing 4.455/4.456 operating 8 car services.

 

[TEW]

1 455 + 2 456s has been a regular formation this year too. There haven't been many 10-car 455/456 formations at all. Operating in that formation has not been an issue.

 

[Snow1964]

I’m sure 1x455 with 2x456 was used regularly on SWT when they first transferred in, but before the 10 car platform extensions were done. I just looked at the SX Carriage Working Notices back in 2016 that are full of entries showing 4.455/4.456 operating 8 car services.

Lived in Kingston until last year and yes prior to 10car scheme, a 455 + 2 456 was fairly common (3-8 trains being formed like that most weekdays)

 

[southern442]

Occasionally on Southern there was a 3x456 working but I doubt there has ever been a 4x456 working at all.

 

[D7666]

Occasionally on Southern there was a 3x456 working but I doubt there has ever been a 4x456 working at all.

4 x 456 was definitely not allowed (well no in passenger service anyway) on the CD routes.

There are (or were at the time) 8car platforms where the first and last passenger doors of an 8car 455 only just fitted on the usable platform (I think Battersea Park was the extreme example) as well as some terminal points where a 8car 455 could turn back within signalling or signal sighting but 4x456 could not.

As I posted above, I am sure this length issue is one underlying reason why SWD lines don't have 4x456, but I can't actually cite any locations where I know it is a definite problem (and in any case with 10car lengthening is probably redundant now).

I don't understand this business about not having unstaffed non through gangwayed units. SET 465/466, C2C 357s, GA 321s 360s, CT 16x, NT 14x/15x, no such limits, and SWR nor SWT nor the shadow TOU ever inherited such a thing from BR because of Sub EPB Hap and so on.

Re. multiple 466s on SED I mentioned, having thought more about it I think both Blackfriars (bays) and Holborn Viaduct might have been the terminals where 4x466 was just too long for signal sighting on turning back. Obviously both are irrelevant now, but there is no business case to go over it again to allow it.

 

[Juniper Driver]

One reason, no doubt of several, that multiple 456s, like 4x456 are not permitted, is that this is slightly longer than 2x455 or 455+456+456, because of the inter-unit couplers - there are more of them, which is where the extra few cm come from, and there are certain locations where that subtle length difference makes a big difference on 8car stopping points and signal sighting. I believe what Trax has said is right, 4x456 is not authorised, and what I write is probably one of the reasons.

4x466 are likewise not authorised on the SED side, also for 8car length reasons; possibly 3x466 not authorised either although not sure ... ISTR with Networkers someone once mentioned their m.u. control limits them to three units anyway.

Ditto 10car 5x456 or 5x466 or 455+3x456 or 466+3x466 verboten.

Wouldn't be authorised round the Hounslow loop.I know Isleworth is a problem with a 455 and two x 456.At least that's what I heard.So 4x456 would be a no no on the 8 car platforms round there.

Probably okay round the Kingston Loop?

No no to Kingston Bay.

I'm not sure what the rules are for 4x456...I did hear recently a 2 car worked down to Chessington.I didn't think that was allowed.

 

[Deepgreen]

And in the past there has been triple 456s run to Hampton Court on Sundays so one of those units would have been unstaffed

Why? That's three units, not four.

Wouldn't be authorised round the Hounslow loop.I know Isleworth is a problem with a 455 and two x 456.At least that's what I heard.So 4x456 would be a no no on the 8 car platforms round there.

Probably okay round the Kingston Loop?

No no to Kingston Bay.

I'm not sure what the rules are for 4x456...I did hear recently a 2 car worked down to Chessington.I didn't think that was allowed.

Single 456s used to be the norm for Wimbledon - West Croydon.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Why? That's three units, not four.


Single 456s used to be the norm for Wimbledon - West Croydon.

They weren't on SWT/SWR at that time?

Different rules on our side...They don't trust us...Still not surprising really...One Saturday afternoon in the Early 90s I did get gapped at Woking.

 

[RJ]

Probably different rules for ECS but I did see a 455+456+455+456 formation pass through Clapham Junction a while back.

 

[Class 466]

One reason, no doubt of several, that multiple 456s, like 4x456 are not permitted, is that this is slightly longer than 2x455 or 455+456+456, because of the inter-unit couplers - there are more of them, which is where the extra few cm come from, and there are certain locations where that subtle length difference makes a big difference on 8car stopping points and signal sighting. I believe what Trax has said is right, 4x456 is not authorised, and what I write is probably one of the reasons.

4x466 are likewise not authorised on the SED side, also for 8car length reasons; possibly 3x466 not authorised either although not sure ... ISTR with Networkers someone once mentioned their m.u. control limits them to three units anyway.

Ditto 10car 5x456 or 5x466 or 455+3x456 or 466+3x466 verboten.

For a timetable period during the introduction of 377s to Southeastern there was a booked 3x466 + 465 formation.

 

[D7666]

For a timetable period during the introduction of 377s to Southeastern there was a booked 3x466 + 465 formation.

Thanks for that ..... that diagram escaped my attention then, or I have forgetten it.