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4 years to the day

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frasier

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yorkie said:
frasier said:
Oh come off it, you know exactly why. Saddam Hussain was dangerous, even if the claims of WMD were greatly exaggerated. He could still have had the weapons, even if at the moment we have no proof.
And the USA isn't "dangerous"?

Remind me which country has used nuclear weapons to kill thousands of innocent people?

I am not sure. I believe you are referring to the bombings of the Japanese cities I can never spell. If you are, then you know why that was. The Japanese were warned, and it was extremely unfortuante it had to happen, but it did, and the Japanese had also bombed America people as well.

If this was not the incident you were referring to, then I must have a gap my knowledge, please inform me what you are talking about.

Well, it is a democratic system, and we therefore must trust it to a bigger degree than a dictator, that was not voted upon by the country, and is therefore more likely to be dangerous. And anyway, we have our own nuclear weapons program, and this is the fact people forget; we are just as responsible for the events in Iraq as America is. We went to war with them, we lied about the war, but people seem to conviently forget that, because their too busy America bashing. The question should be: "Why should we have nuclear weapons, when other cannot?" just as much as the same question can be asked of the Americans.
 
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yorkie

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frasier said:
I am not sure. I believe you are referring to the bombings of the Japanese cities I can never spell. If you are, then you know why that was. The Japanese were warned, and it was extremely unfortuante it had to happen, but it did, and the Japanese had also bombed America people as well.
:oops: :roll:

So by this logic, we can be bombed because we bombed Iraq? And if we are warned that makes it okay? Oh dear... :oops:

Or is the logic only one-way? Ah, thought so.

frasier said:
Well, it is a democratic system, and we therefore must trust it to a bigger degree than a dictator, that was not voted upon by the country, and is therefore more likely to be dangerous.
Shall we invade all dictatorships then? That could take a while.
frasier said:
And anyway, we have our own nuclear weapons program, and this is the fact people forget; we are just as responsible for the events in Iraq as America is. We went to war with them, we lied about the war, but people seem to conviently forget that, because their too busy America bashing. The question should be: "Why should we have nuclear weapons, when other cannot?" just as much as the same question can be asked of the Americans.
Yes that is all true.

But I disagree with saying we're equally to blame, it was more a case of Bliar going along with Bush. But I do consider both of them to be irresponsible and acting illegally.
 

frasier

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yorkie said:
:oops: :roll:

So by this logic, we can be bombed because we bombed Iraq? And if we are warned that makes it okay? Oh dear... :oops:

Or is the logic only one-way? Ah, thought so.

Yes, but that was in the war, and you must admit, it was different then than it is now. Are you really sticking up for the Japanese? You know, the people who supported the Nazis, who's POWs were treated so badly, the Japanese who were the ones who started the war between them and the Americans in the first place?

Are you saying we should not have bombed the Germans in the war, because we should not have done it to them just because they did it to us? And that we should not have fought back against them anyway, "because we had no right to do what they did to us"? Equally, by your logic, we would have let the Germans invade our borders, and no one should have fought back at all. Thank God you were not PM in 1939, otherwise we'd all be in German hands now. Let's face it; the situation was entirely irrelevant to that in the Second World War. That was a different kind of war to the Iraq war.

Shall we invade all dictatorships then? That could take a while.

No. That was not the question, was it. I said a dictatorship should be trusted less than a democracy. I did not, in any way, say we should invade all dictorships, because, as you say, that would take a while.
Yes that is all true.

But I disagree with saying we're equally to blame, it was more a case of Bliar going along with Bush. But I do consider both of them to be irresponsible and acting illegally.

It was up to Blair that he followed Bush, and therefore we have equal blame.
 

David

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Just to clear several points of this arguement up.

Gareth Hale said:
Actually, you are wrong, if it wasnt for America, the world will be gone now because Iraq had those bad weapons.

What weapons. Since Bush and Blair invaded Iraq, they have found no evidence whatsoever of any WMD. This was their excuse for going to war. This leads to my next point.

Gareth Hale said:
If Bush says its legal, its 100% legal
tubechallenger said:
It is illegal by international law, it is legal by US law. Who wins? International law, who does Bush say wins? US law.

Simple answer is International Law wins. Both the war in Afganistan and the war in Iraq were illegal because you cannot go to war with the intention of a regime change. That is what happened in both cases. Also, George Bush is breaking international law with his inhumane treatment of prisoners of war.

IMO George Bush is one of the most dangerous men in the world right now, because he has shown a blatent disregard for international law with the above mentioned, and now he is talking about invading Iran. His excuse. They are devolping Nuclear Power Stations. He sees this as a threat to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, yet Iran has said they will not build Nuclear Weapons. So once again, he wants a regime change or to put it bluntly, another illegal war.
 
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Tom

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Gareth Hale said:
:roll: Since the British are helping, I think they think its legal too ;)

Our government know the war is illegal, just won't admit it.
 

Ben

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all i can say is some people in this thread should be ashamed of themselves this thread began as a thread to remember all those who died now it has just turned into an argument

i thought there was more maturity among the members and admins of this forum there is clearly NO maturity
 

yorkie

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158, the fact is that topics go 'off topic', you can't force people to stay 'on topic' as that's against human nature. In real life conversations change topic, that's life.

However I am concerned at Frasier's posts, including those which were lost when we had the database problem, it appears he's a troll and here to wind us up.

Anyone who defends the use of nuclear weapons... well words cannot describe how I feel about them. And attempting to justify it... ugh, makes me feel sick thinking about it.
 

Ben

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theres several people who have developed this thread into an Argument by even trying to to insinuate what the USA have done is legal

international law says its not, American Law says it is i can see how people such as Gareth get confused

International law is right

so the people that defend America are defending sick bastards that use Chemical materials to win wars hence killing innocent people think about it that way then tell me if you still support American policys

[apologies for the rant it needed to said]
 

Gareth Hale

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The people who defend America are the people who see's sence and likes the country, if you just want to wipe the whole world away, go ahead and do that, People who think the people in Iraq should have the nasty weapons are just strange (all I could think of). I am British, I like America though, I have some really great friends overhere. Also, this thread made me mad when sombody posted those 'photoshopped' pictures of Bush who happens to be the LEADER of the country I live in. So, when you say how bad America is, just think, you are calling members of this site, like me.
 

AlexS

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Gareth mate, you are unfortunately seeing the matter through the eyes of a child.

the WMDs in Iraq never existed, at least not post 1995 or so.

George Bush is refusing to enter into any treaties regarding environmental pollutants. That for a start makes him a criminal against humanity in my book.

He LIED about the war in Iraq. It isn't true. Not one bit of it.

America as a country isn't bad (except maybe for a persistant arrogance, but that's never really harmed anyone).

But frankly, it's current leader is a few million years behind the rest of the human race when it comes to evolution. He is still drawing in the sand with twigs.
 

Tom B

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trainlover123 said:
I really don't want to know anyone who is pro-nuclear. :|

Do you mean pro-nuclear weapons or pro-nuclear power?

And if America is somewhere where (supposedly) you can hold whatever view you like, why do you portray those who defend America to be better than those who don't?
 

Gareth Hale

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AlexS said:
Gareth mate, you are unfortunately seeing the matter through the eyes of a child.

Is that because I am still a child, im 15, till im 18, im a child
 

Met Driver

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Gareth Hale said:
Is that because I am still a child, im 15, till im 18, im a child

Maybe you should try and see the matter through the eyes of everyone else...
 

Dave A

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This is why I'm so anti-american. Ok Gareth, your not fully american, but you live around people who are, and have done for a few years.

You don't seem to realise that A LOT of americans have stood up for George Bush, even though, IMO, he deserves to be locked away for crimes against humanity for stuff like the Iraqi war! By voting him back in power, you have shown your support for war, mass murder and basically giving the world a much more problems than it did have when before all this, which makes you murderers as well. But as usual, most americans are too stupid to realise this!

I hate bringing this up but look at 9/11 & 7/7 and compare them. Can you see the big difference? 9/11 was a gateway for George Bush to attack the middle east, nothing else. There were no major enquiries in to the reasons this happened, or who, as in the seperate persons, not group or country!, was responsible. Now look at 7/7. Within 2 weeks the people who did it were identified. There has been little to no talk about this being a specific's gorups fault or a middle eastern country's fault, it was dealt with over here, where it happened, and suprise suprise, they were British, not from a middle eastern country, British, probably like the ones who did 9/11 were american! Of course, that would never get out, even if it was true!

Maybe if the americans would stop and think, instead of jumping to conclusions and looking for someone to blame, there wouldn't be so much trouble in the world! america is a corrupt country, but because they almost control the world through stock markets, trading etc, we all have to suffer every time they do something that will cause more trouble in the world!

This is why I'm anti-america/n!
 

frasier

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yorkie said:
158, the fact is that topics go 'off topic', you can't force people to stay 'on topic' as that's against human nature. In real life conversations change topic, that's life.

However I am concerned at Frasier's posts, including those which were lost when we had the database problem, it appears he's a troll and here to wind us up.

Anyone who defends the use of nuclear weapons... well words cannot describe how I feel about them. And attempting to justify it... ugh, makes me feel sick thinking about it.


I was not defending nuclear weapons at all, merely stating that you cannot judge a population on what they did in an unrelated incident 50 years ago. Do you still think Germans are Nazis? Maybe you do.

This was my point, that you cannot say that one country is dangerous, because of what they did fifty years ago. Forget then, look at what they are doing now, and judge them on these actions, as opposed to actions in a very different time over a very different incident.

No one can defend nulcear weapons, and in a perfect world I would say we should get rid of them all, but it is not a perfect world, and I do believe we need them for defense, if such a weapon was launched at us.

You seemed to have missed all my other points. Do you think we should not have fought against Hitler?

Again, I do not defend what is happening in Iraq, however to be so anti- American is just plain stupid. In fact I have heard many comments on this very topic that if they were said about another race, they would be considered racist. But that is the way of the world. I am partly American, and I must say I have been hurt by some of the comments that you have made towards my nationality.

As for me trolling; I am not. I am expressing my opinions on the subjects that you place in front of me. Maybe if you were not looking for trolls all the time, you wouldn't get as many. I am not a troll, I have just disagreed with you, and I can see we are on different sides of the political spectrum, but does that mean I am "trolling", and not disagreeing with you? I wanted to use this forum to express my opinions and talk about trains, which I have done very little, as I've been too busy explaining myself for daring to disagree with the "Party".

I am now going to leave this forum. I do not want to talk to people who accuse people of disagreeing on purpose, and therefore do not allow me to express my opinion, and who make hurtful comments about my orgin nation. Maybe you should all learn about America, and maybe you would see it is not as bad as you, and the media, seem to think it is.

Goodnight, and I hope that you all feel throughly ashamed with yourselves, as you have driven another memeber that could have learned to love this forum, but I suppose you won't have a memeber who dares disagree with you again.
 

Met Driver

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You clearly had no intention of 'learning to love' this forum. Not one of your posts have had anything to do with Railways, and your general attitude has been less than admirable. I am struggling to work out exactly why you registered in the first place, other than, it would seem, to cause trouble.

This topic will be locked shortly.
 

yorkie

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I agree with Seth.

I think this topic has been unfortunate in that Gareth has posted some ill-informed statements that then got people's backs up as we have seen with the replies. This in turn may have offended frasier.

However, at the end of the day, the 'anti americanism' is actually limited to discussing their foreign policy. But when we are told that wars are legal 'because Bush says so' it's only going to cause a backlash. Sorry Gareth, you're entitled to like Bush, but it's only going to end up with a load of counter-arguments here.

frasier, I could say I am offended by your comments about views you appear to be fabricating about me regarding nazis. I am not going to comment on that, because we could be here all day, and I am not prepared to go off-topic to that extent, that's my choice.

frasier you have joined a Rail forum, yet as Seth said you posted nothing regarding railways. In fact you posted a lot of material that was entirely pro-road lobby (that is no longer accessible as suffered from the database problem).

I find it difficult to understand how someone can join a forum called RailUK and yet argue in favour of cars, condone use of nuclear weapons, and generally support right-wing policies.

I'm not saying you're not entitled to your right-wing views, but why join this forum? it does not make sense.

We've had a lot of trolls here, and yes we do have to be on the lookout, but you have displayed all the signs. Sorry if you felt you were not here to troll, but we can only go by the evidence we see before us.

and finally
frasier said:
was not defending nuclear weapons at all
Oh, how I wish I could believe that. Sadly, you demonstrated earlier in the topic how you do in fact condone the use of the nuclear weapons that killed hundreds of thousands of people. :cry: You then went on to effectively say that they deserved it. :cry: I am sorry but I do get upset and annoyed when people say things like that.

You may feel some people here are 'anti american', they're actually anti american foreign policy and I can assure you they would never condone the killing of innocent people as you did earlier in this topic.

And if anyone said " The Americans were warned, and it was extremely unfortuante it had to happen, but it did, " about the 11 September bombings you would (quite rightly) be outraged. But you seem to think it's OK for you to say " The Japanese were warned, and it was extremely unfortuante it had to happen, but it did, " to say a nuclear bomb "had to happen", to say hundreds of thousands had to die, it's beyond my comprehension, it's beyond humanity.
 
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