41001, the HST group and the future

[cjmillsnun]

You'll have the purists up in arms! Plus the electrical engineers of having one power car with 1000V ETS and the other with 415V. And the accountants for what it would all cost .........

The voltage isn't a problem. As long as all the coaches use the same form of ETS as one of the power cars. 41001 has already worked in multiple with EMT power cars. Once as a demo during Neville Hill's open day (I think they moved a few feet as well as a few start ups and throttling up whilst stationary) and once on the screaming valenta tour on the GCR.

However there is no point in changing a production power car. In fact using a production power car with an MTU or VP185 and the later lighting configuration in multiple with 41001 would be entirely appropriate as they could show the evolution of the HST from prototype to final configuration in revenue service.

 

[43096]

The voltage isn't a problem. As long as all the coaches use the same form of ETS as one of the power cars. 41001 has already worked in multiple with EMT power cars. Once as a demo during Neville Hill's open day (I think they moved a few feet as well as a few start ups and throttling up whilst stationary) and once on the screaming valenta tour on the GCR.

However there is no point in changing a production power car. In fact using a production power car with an MTU or VP185 and the later lighting configuration in multiple with 41001 would be entirely appropriate as they could show the evolution of the HST from prototype to final configuration in revenue service.

It was at Etches Park open day that 41001 was first tested in multi (with 43048). During the open day it was only to "remote start" the other power car; after the gates closed a short test run was done.

As you say, though, there's no point changing the configuration of the power car(s) for train supply. In fact it would be more flexible that way, as a production power car can provide train supply to HST trailers and 41001 will provide supply to LHCS (as it does with the 125 Group's Mark 3s).

 

[A0wen]

Why would you want to? 41002 is gone - it's one of those things that happens.

"Not going to be that expensive"? Perhaps you'd enlighten us as to how much it will cost. Don't forget to include other items to re-create 41002: cab desk needs significant change as the cab layout is very different, bodyside grilles to cut in, rear cab to include, etc etc.

Wish I had a £1 for every time some clueless muppet comes up with this "idea"...

Thanks for the compliment. :roll:

It will doubtless be far cheaper than any of the 'new' builds currently underway. In fact I'd bet it would be less than the Baby Deltic 'reproduction'.

As I pointed out - the cab is a removable module from the HST power cars - there are various pictures of 'de cabbed' power cars available. So the basic 'shell' is a very large GRP moulding.

No reason to put the rear cab in - it would be about giving a representation (i.e a bit like the Baby Deltic) rather than a fully accurate replacement.

 

[43096]

Thanks for the compliment. :roll:

It will doubtless be far cheaper than any of the 'new' builds currently underway. In fact I'd bet it would be less than the Baby Deltic 'reproduction'.

As I pointed out - the cab is a removable module from the HST power cars - there are various pictures of 'de cabbed' power cars available. So the basic 'shell' is a very large GRP moulding.

No reason to put the rear cab in - it would be about giving a representation (i.e a bit like the Baby Deltic) rather than a fully accurate replacement.

You're welcome to the compliment as you've just proved my point...

You just don't get it, do you? Why would you spend many £k getting a one-off cab moulding done when you already have 41001. There is no bottomless pit of money to tap into, and available money would be much better spent on other things that are far more historically important (such as returning a production power car to Valenta engine/Marston cooler configuration).

 

[AnonymousUser1]

You're welcome to the compliment as you've just proved my point...

You just don't get it, do you? Why would you spend many £k getting a one-off cab moulding done when you already have 41001. There is no bottomless pit of money to tap into, and available money would be much better spent on other things that are far more historically important (such as returning a production power car to Valenta engine/Marston cooler configuration).

ideally what we need to see preserved from the IC125 family is

41001

a production power car reverted to Valenta /Marston etc and back into blue + yellow / original grey IC or swallow livery

one or ideally both of the re-engined types of production power car.

and a couple of rakes of Mk 3s to stick between them ...

 

[43096]

ideally what we need to see preserved from the IC125 family is

41001

a production power car reverted to Valenta /Marston etc and back into blue + yellow / original grey IC or swallow livery

one or ideally both of the re-engined types of production power car.

and a couple of rakes of Mk 3s to stick between them ...

Yeah, that would be an ideal scenario. Heck of a task for a pres group to look after that lot, though! Normally a group may have loco(s), but not rakes of stock as well!

 

[Tempest3K]

Yeah, that would be an ideal scenario. Heck of a task for a pres group to look after that lot, though! Normally a group may have loco(s), but not rakes of stock as well!

Talking about lots of manpower & lots of cash for that scenario, although I agree that would be the best possible outcome when we finally get to preserving production sets

 

[theblackwatch]

There is no bottomless pit of money to tap into, and available money would be much better spent on other things that are far more historically important (such as returning a production power car to Valenta engine/Marston cooler configuration).

And don't forget to reinstate the guard's compartment, remove the smoke deflector etc.

In all seriousness, a HST formed of 41001 at one end and a Valenta '43' at the other would be excellent.

 

[scotsman]

And don't forget to reinstate the guard's compartment, remove the smoke deflector etc.

In all seriousness, a HST formed of 41001 at one end and a Valenta '43' at the other would be excellent.

I just rejoined the 125 Group to help see this happen

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Yeah, that would be an ideal scenario. Heck of a task for a pres group to look after that lot, though! Normally a group may have loco(s), but not rakes of stock as well!

part of the issue with stock for HSTs especially if you have a 'production' powercar ( regardless of engine) each end is the 415 v train supply stuff ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

<snip>

In all seriousness, a HST formed of 41001 at one end and a Valenta '43' at the other would be excellent.

indeed , the minimum aim for 'saving' needs to be 41001 , a production PC reverted to as close to original as possible and a laterspec PC

 

[dgl]

Could we have some sort of paint job where the prototype livery merges into the production livery half way through the set.

 

[43096]

Could we have some sort of paint job where the prototype livery merges into the production livery half way through the set.

Might be an idea to actually have a set preserved first before starting on paint froth!

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Could we have some sort of paint job where the prototype livery merges into the production livery half way through the set.

as 43096 says - first get your rake ...

I presume this is to pair 41001 with the 'reverted' Production PC

so what livery is the reverted power car going to be in ? blue, IC grey or Swallow ?

as that will have an impact of how many liveries you go through down the rake ...

 

[antharro]

I just rejoined the 125 Group to help see this happen

Likewise.

so what livery is the reverted power car going to be in ? blue, IC grey or Swallow ?

Swallow, naturally. Along with the first few carriages. Assuming an odd number of carriages, do a fade between Swallow and Prototype on the middle carriage.

I don't see any need at this time to "fake" another prototype power car. Just stick a regular 43 on the end. If, in the unlikely event that there are bags of cash just sitting around once 41001 has a rake and a powercar and it's all in good working order and nothing needs doing at all, then maybe it could be looked at but I think it's so far down the priority list that it's just not worth bothering with right now.

 

[43096]

Likewise.



Swallow, naturally. Along with the first few carriages. Assuming an odd number of carriages, do a fade between Swallow and Prototype on the middle carriage.

I don't see any need at this time to "fake" another prototype power car. Just stick a regular 43 on the end. If, in the unlikely event that there are bags of cash just sitting around once 41001 has a rake and a powercar and it's all in good working order and nothing needs doing at all, then maybe it could be looked at but I think it's so far down the priority list that it's just not worth bothering with right now.

I think you can be confident that it will never get done. There will always be something that is a much higher priority for any available funds. Preservation is phenomenally expensive: as the saying goes "You can make a small fortune out of railway preservation. But only if you start with a very large fortune."

 

[Derbyshire Gra]

Been away - so only just caught up with this thread.

43096 may seem to be a little sarcastic in his approach - but he is right on the button.

There are several problems with HST preservation:
1) The cost of preserving power car(s) and trailers
2) The man power required to preserve power car(s) and trailers
3) The physical space for preserving power car(s) and trailers
4) Finding somewhere to keep power car(s) and trailers
5) The (limited) ability to operate power car(s) and trailers on preserved lines
6) all of the above x 10 if you are hoping to go mainline.

125 Group has made a fantastic start by teaming up to take an NRM static asset and spend the time, effort and money to make it operational. It has achieved this at not insignificant cost, but with a huge amount of industry goodwill and support - which is less likely to be forthcoming in the future on production vehicles.

They have then, of their own initiative, secured three Mark III trailers to make a mini prototype HST - not original - but a good representation - and secure the funding to get them liveried to match 41001 - and they are turning heads at Galas!

Future HST preservation could be so much to so many - and where do you start and finish? Main line sets would be lovely but the cost will be enormous. A couple of power cars is doable, and the spares are there to support some restoration to near original. A couple more coaches would be lovely so that you can have a mini HST set on preserved lines with either a pair of production cars - or one production and one prototype - don't worry about the electrics - the different cars can feed their respective vehicles quite happily. But even this is going to cost some considerable dosh not only to acquire, but to maintain.

125 Group is doing things right, but will need huge support if they are to see continued HST operation after the main fleets are withdrawn. No surprise they have started a concerted fund raising - and they will need every penny they can get (unashamed plug - http://www.125group.org.uk/donate/ )

Oh - and did I mention the cost?