456s to SWT

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cjohnson

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Due to cascade from Southern in 2014, per a DfT press release today. Hope they will be getting a good refurb, can't stand the current seats on them!
 
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hwl

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Hope they will be getting a good refurb, can't stand the current seats on them!

Agreed those are very uncomfortable seats.

Thinking about DfT's press release:
Is only 20 (of total 24) units assumed to be in service conservative or are they assuming some 456s will be available to cover if a 455 isn't available (or have less 455 in reserve overall).

It is often quoted on here that DfT hasn't agreed to all the platform lengthening yet, one might assume this is at least partial confirmation, where does this leave platform lengthening and track realignment at Waterloo etc?
 

pendolino

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I quite like the seats on 456s, like an old but comfy favourite armchair you can sink back into. They're a lot more comfortable than the driving seat!
 

jopsuk

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I'd have thought they'll be getting a similar refurb to the SWT 455s...
edit: 37 carriages in the evening how? I apprecaite there's some level of cascade involved, but still, confused...
 

cjohnson

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I quite like the seats on 456s, like an old but comfy favourite armchair you can sink back into. They're a lot more comfortable than the driving seat!

So long as you don't have anyone immediately opposite or next to you!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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What are Southern getting to allow this cascade?

I think it's a result of LO taking over the South London line services (currently London Bridge to Victoria, but will become ELL-Clapham Jn).
Also partly due to a cascade after getting the 377s they have just ordered.
 

sprinterguy

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Thinking about DfT's press release:
Is only 20 (of total 24) units assumed to be in service conservative or are they assuming some 456s will be available to cover if a 455 isn't available (or have less 455 in reserve overall).
Well, you can't have 100% utilisation day in, day out, there's always going to be a contingency made for units being on maintenance: Although a utilisation figure of 83.3% (20 trains out of 24) for an EMU class does seem a bit low.
It's also worth bearing in mind that it probably isn't just as simple as the "extra forty carriages in the morning" simply referring to the additional 456s, as the internal cascade caused by the arrival of the 456s will mean that a number of 455 diagrams get fiddled around.
 

cjohnson

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Is this instead of or as well as the 458 / 460 project?

As well as:

SWT press release said:
This is the second phase of a capacity enhancement programme that will see the introduction of a total of 108 additional carriages on the network between May 2013 and December 2014. Phase 1, which was announced in December 2011, will deliver an additional 60 carriages through the refurbishment of former Gatwick Express Class 460 Juniper vehicles, combined with refurbished trains from South West Trains fleet.

The announcement of enhanced services in phase 2 will be delivered through the cascade of 48 Class 456 trains from Southern Railways. These trains are compatible with the Class 455 trains within the existing South West Trains fleet and will be refurbished to the same high quality specification.
 

sprinterguy

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edit: 37 carriages in the evening how? I apprecaite there's some level of cascade involved, but still, confused...
The reference to an additional 37 carriages in the evening certainly is intriguing when eight, ten and twelve car formations, all even numbers, are the norm.

I note that the press release also mentions that Exeter to Waterloo services will be able to be strengthened due to the arrival of the 456s: Will this be thanks to an electric unit releasing a 158 from services over third rail territory (Lymington branch would be one, and there are others elsewhere IIRC?) I presume?
 

Chris125

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As can be seen from the press release, this is on top of the existing 458/460 deal, they'll be refurbed to 455 standards, and it looks like they'll be freeing up 158's for London services, presumably on the Lymington branch.

FURTHER BOOST FOR PASSENGERS AS SOUTH WEST TRAINS SECURES ADDITIONAL CARRIAGES
· 48 extra carriages secured through agreement with Department for Transport
· 2,400 additional seats everyday for UK's busiest commuter network
· Total of 108 extra carriages to be introduced on network between May 2013 and December 2014

South West Trains passengers are set to benefit from a further boost to their service as part of an investment announced today (8 May 2012) by the train operator and the Department for Transport (DfT).

Passengers will see more seats provided on a number of morning and evening peak services to and from London Waterloo through the introduction of 48 extra carriages creating an additional 2,400 extra seats every day. The extra carriages will mean five, six and eight car trains can be lengthened to run as eight, nine, 10 and 12-car services, providing the following enhancements:

Morning peak
· Six longer mainline trains from Salisbury, Yeovil Junction, Basingstoke, Portsmouth Harbour (via Eastleigh) and Alton to London Waterloo
· Three longer suburban trains from Guildford (via Cobham) and Woking to London Waterloo
· Two extra eight car trains from Raynes Park to London Waterloo

Evening peak
· Six longer mainline trains from London Waterloo to Exeter and Basingstoke
· Extra seats on four suburban services from London Waterloo to Guildford (via Woking),Guildford (via Cobham) and Twickenham (via Kingston)
· Two longer trains on Windsor line services from London Waterloo to Aldershot (via Richmond) and to Teddington (via Richmond).

Tim Shoveller, Managing Director for South West Trains said: Tim Shoveller, Managing Director for South West Trains, said: "Our network is one of the busiest in Europe and we carry around 300,000 passengers to and from London Waterloo, the UK's busiest railway station, every day.

"The number of passengers we are attracting to our rail services has doubled in the past 15 years. Both South West Trains and the Department for Transport recognise our shared responsibility to tackle overcrowding and look at ways of providing extra capacity and more seats for the 200 million customers who travel on our network every year.

"We have already confirmed the introduction of 60 additional carriages, which will be introduced from May next year, and today's announcement that we have successfully secured a further 48 carriages will provide another huge boost to South West Trains' passengers."

Transport Secretary Justine Greening said: “This is great news for passengers. Adding extra carriages to these vital routes will not only ease congestion but also help to boost London’s economy.

“Rail travel is more popular than ever and we are delivering the biggest rail modernisation programme since the Victorian era, with £18 billion committed in this spending period. This includes work on Crossrail and the Thameslink upgrade – two schemes that will transform connections across London and the South East.”

This is the second phase of a capacity enhancement programme that will see the introduction of a total of 108 additional carriages on the network between May 2013 and December 2014. Phase 1, which was announced in December 2011, will deliver an additional 60 carriages through the refurbishment of former Gatwick Express Class 460 Juniper vehicles, combined with refurbished trains from South West Trains fleet.

The announcement of enhanced services in phase 2 will be delivered through the cascade of 48 Class 456 trains from Southern Railways. These trains are compatible with the Class 455 trains within the existing South West Trains fleet and will be refurbished to the same high quality specification.

Last year, the Department for Transport announced plans as part of Phase 1 of the capacity enhancements to bring Platform 20 at the former Waterloo International Terminal back into use from December 2013. South West Trains is working with the DfT and other parties to re-open the platform earlier than previously planned. Proposals are also being developed by the DfT, Network Rail and South West Trains to provide a long-term solution to congestion at London Waterloo.

South West Trains – part of Stagecoach Group - is currently investing over £100m in a range of improvements for passengers including better station facilities, additional car parking spaces, fleet refurbishment and provision of better customer information. Passengers are also set to benefit from the recently launched South West Trains/Network Rail deep alliance, which aims to reduce delays, deliver more effective management of disruption and improve the efficiency of the railway through more collaborative working and better decision-making.

Chris
 

SprinterMan

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As can be seen from the press release, this is on top of the existing 458/460 deal, they'll be refurbed to 455 standards, and it looks like they'll be freeing up 158's for London services, presumably on the Lymington branch.

FURTHER BOOST FOR PASSENGERS AS SOUTH WEST TRAINS SECURES ADDITIONAL CARRIAGES
· 48 extra carriages secured through agreement with Department for Transport
· 2,400 additional seats everyday for UK's busiest commuter network
· Total of 108 extra carriages to be introduced on network between May 2013 and December 2014

South West Trains passengers are set to benefit from a further boost to their service as part of an investment announced today (8 May 2012) by the train operator and the Department for Transport (DfT).

Passengers will see more seats provided on a number of morning and evening peak services to and from London Waterloo through the introduction of 48 extra carriages creating an additional 2,400 extra seats every day. The extra carriages will mean five, six and eight car trains can be lengthened to run as eight, nine, 10 and 12-car services, providing the following enhancements:

Morning peak
· Six longer mainline trains from Salisbury, Yeovil Junction, Basingstoke, Portsmouth Harbour (via Eastleigh) and Alton to London Waterloo
· Three longer suburban trains from Guildford (via Cobham) and Woking to London Waterloo
· Two extra eight car trains from Raynes Park to London Waterloo

Evening peak
· Six longer mainline trains from London Waterloo to Exeter and Basingstoke
· Extra seats on four suburban services from London Waterloo to Guildford (via Woking),Guildford (via Cobham) and Twickenham (via Kingston)
· Two longer trains on Windsor line services from London Waterloo to Aldershot (via Richmond) and to Teddington (via Richmond).

Tim Shoveller, Managing Director for South West Trains said: Tim Shoveller, Managing Director for South West Trains, said: "Our network is one of the busiest in Europe and we carry around 300,000 passengers to and from London Waterloo, the UK's busiest railway station, every day.

"The number of passengers we are attracting to our rail services has doubled in the past 15 years. Both South West Trains and the Department for Transport recognise our shared responsibility to tackle overcrowding and look at ways of providing extra capacity and more seats for the 200 million customers who travel on our network every year.

"We have already confirmed the introduction of 60 additional carriages, which will be introduced from May next year, and today's announcement that we have successfully secured a further 48 carriages will provide another huge boost to South West Trains' passengers."

Transport Secretary Justine Greening said: “This is great news for passengers. Adding extra carriages to these vital routes will not only ease congestion but also help to boost London’s economy.

“Rail travel is more popular than ever and we are delivering the biggest rail modernisation programme since the Victorian era, with £18 billion committed in this spending period. This includes work on Crossrail and the Thameslink upgrade – two schemes that will transform connections across London and the South East.”

This is the second phase of a capacity enhancement programme that will see the introduction of a total of 108 additional carriages on the network between May 2013 and December 2014. Phase 1, which was announced in December 2011, will deliver an additional 60 carriages through the refurbishment of former Gatwick Express Class 460 Juniper vehicles, combined with refurbished trains from South West Trains fleet.

The announcement of enhanced services in phase 2 will be delivered through the cascade of 48 Class 456 trains from Southern Railways. These trains are compatible with the Class 455 trains within the existing South West Trains fleet and will be refurbished to the same high quality specification.

Last year, the Department for Transport announced plans as part of Phase 1 of the capacity enhancements to bring Platform 20 at the former Waterloo International Terminal back into use from December 2013. South West Trains is working with the DfT and other parties to re-open the platform earlier than previously planned. Proposals are also being developed by the DfT, Network Rail and South West Trains to provide a long-term solution to congestion at London Waterloo.

South West Trains – part of Stagecoach Group - is currently investing over £100m in a range of improvements for passengers including better station facilities, additional car parking spaces, fleet refurbishment and provision of better customer information. Passengers are also set to benefit from the recently launched South West Trains/Network Rail deep alliance, which aims to reduce delays, deliver more effective management of disruption and improve the efficiency of the railway through more collaborative working and better decision-making.

Chris

Good on Dft and SWT! Southern won't need them after LO take over the SLL and they get their new 377/6s. SWT will be using alot of old Southern stock (456s, 460s) on their commuter network in a few years. I assume when they say 48 456's they mean either 24 456's or 48 carriages.

Adam :D
 

Minstral25

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OK - good deal for SWT but what are Southern or "New Thameslink" getting back? 48 regularly used carriages gone!

The 377/6's are to fulfil the commitment to have 10 coach trains on inner-London services as the 377/5's will not come back until 2017.

And where will the 4/8 coach trains be routes that the 455's can operate in inner-London? They cannot make 10 coach trains out of them without the 456's or reforming them which is unlikely?
 

TEW

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And where will the 4/8 coach trains be routes that the 455's can operate in inner-London? They cannot make 10 coach trains out of them without the 456's or reforming them which is unlikely?

Therer has been a move towards 377s for 10-car workings, hence the 377/3s have moved to London area workings in December to allow some 10-carriage trains to be formed up.
 

NIMBUS

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Ironic, really, that South Western should finally get their hands on them after all these years - after all, they were originally ordered for the South Western Division, to strengthen 455 diagrams to 6 cars. Then, before delivery, they were diverted to the South Central Division.
 

Urban Gateline

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That's what I was hoping: A little two carriage EMU like the 456 would seem to best suited to the branch.

Are you out of your mind?! Have you seen how busy some of the Exeter services are?! A 2 car EMU will never be enough, currently there is a struggle with the 6 car DMU's and even 9 car DMU's being full and standing! :lol:
 

Ivo

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Didn't sprinterguy's 456 idea relate to Lymington? ;)

In relation to Lymington though, I don't like the idea of tarnishing one of the nicest routes SWT run with 456s :(
 

MCR247

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Are you out of your mind?! Have you seen how busy some of the Exeter services are?! A 2 car EMU will never be enough, currently there is a struggle with the 6 car DMU's and even 9 car DMU's being full and standing! :lol:

He's on about the Lymington branch;)
 

Urban Gateline

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He's on about the Lymington branch;)

If that is the case then I agree with the idea, even a 1 car pacer would be enough for that line, it is hardly ever busy. Since the Lymington branch is electrified it would make most sense to take the 158's from there and use them to strengthen the Exeter/Salisbury services.
 

tbtc

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This seems to be one of those rare bits of good news on the railways where everyone seems to be better off.

Southern get some brand new EMUs (and the reduction in PVR due to LOROL taking over some south London duties), the third rail bit of SWT gets these 456s to boost capacity and the diesel bit of SWT gets the freed up 158 to increase the number of seats available a little bit.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Didn't sprinterguy's 456 idea relate to Lymington? ;)

In relation to Lymington though, I don't like the idea of tarnishing one of the nicest routes SWT run with 456s :(

So you'd merrily waste a much needed DMU on it all day then for the sake of image? :|

I had actually thought in the past why they don't just use two of the redundant end coaches from the 460 breakup joined together and use that on the Lymington branch all day.
 

swt_passenger

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I had actually thought in the past why they don't just use two of the redundant end coaches from the 460 breakup joined together and use that on the Lymington branch all day.

They can't use them, because the eventual four spare end coaches will be pretty useless without doors - the eight 'luggage van' end cars only provide enough passenger double door sets for four vehicles.
 

Ivo

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So you'd merrily waste a much needed DMU on it all day then for the sake of image? :|

I had actually thought in the past why they don't just use two of the redundant end coaches from the 460 breakup joined together and use that on the Lymington branch all day.

I wouldn't insist on a DMU, but I don't like the idea of "dropping" to a 456. I like your 460 idea though, even if it isn't possible.
 

swt_passenger

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It is often quoted on here that DfT hasn't agreed to all the platform lengthening yet, one might assume this is at least partial confirmation, where does this leave platform lengthening and track realignment at Waterloo etc?

All the intended platform lengthening EXCEPT Waterloo has been confirmed. The contract for the mainline side inner suburban was let last October, I've pointed it out a few times over the last few months.

On the Windsor side, to deal with certain stations such as Feltham which is 'hemmed in' at both ends ASDO is to be used.

All the details of which stations and which platforms will be extended for ten cars is in the CP4 enhancement plans, as recently updated.
 

infobleep

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But from reading the above, unless they change the timetable or passengers to Woling board different train services, passengers wishing to travel from Clapham Junctiom to Guildford and beyond around 18.45, will still have to cram into the 5 car Poole service and change at Woking. Where as shortly after that a 12 car train with more space on and going straight to Guildford will zoom through Clapham Junction without stopping, it additionally stopping at west Byfleet instead.

Also doesn't look like the 6.31 fast from Guildford will get any more than it's current 5 carriages. On a positive note though the 18.27 to exter will certainly welcome the extra carriages. Must be a nightmare trying to get to exter from Clapham Junction at this time, possibly only matched by the problems one has to get there in peak rush hour.
 
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Class377/5

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OK - good deal for SWT but what are Southern or "New Thameslink" getting back? 48 regularly used carriages gone!

The 377/6's are to fulfil the commitment to have 10 coach trains on inner-London services as the 377/5's will not come back until 2017.

And where will the 4/8 coach trains be routes that the 455's can operate in inner-London? They cannot make 10 coach trains out of them without the 456's or reforming them which is unlikely?

Quite the question....

130 new vehicles formed in 26 5-car sets, as already pointed out.

Chris

Therer has been a move towards 377s for 10-car workings, hence the 377/3s have moved to London area workings in December to allow some 10-carriage trains to be formed up.

The original plan for Southern's 10 car metro services included the 26 units that FCC borrowed (total 99 carriages). The 377/6 were ordered as the replacements with 26x 5 car trains (130 carriages). This means Southern actually gained 31 carriages but are now having 48 taken away. Add the 19x 313 carriages means Southern has got an extra 40 carriages overall for the 10 car railway.

Is this really enough to run everything via Sydenham and Balham as 10 car from December 2013?
 
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