47/7 push pulls

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HST43108

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The responses to Clansman & Scottish 37s has got me started now. A lot of wheels turning in my head now :)
With regards 47701-717 use on Glassgow Edinburgh push-pulls which is well documented, I seem to recall seeing some of these locos on Glassgow to Aberdeen, Dundee workings also. I was very young at the time and didn't pay much attention regrettably.

(A) Am I correct that some where used as such at the same time as the Glassgow - Edinburgh push pull operation.

(B) Where could I get the diagrams for the 47/7 logistics at the time
Would like to see how this stock was utilised at the time on Glassgow - Edinburgh and if indeed wanderings north of Glassgow were built in to their use also.
I remember at the time that the Gassgow diagrams exerted a punishing maintenance schedule on the brakes of the 47/7 which by extension would have a number of them there solely for the purpose of replacing those in for maintenance.

(C) How many sets of coaching stock were there for use on the push pulls.
The answer to this may give the figure of 47/7s that were there as a maintenance pool in effect.

It was a truly fascinating time in the Scottish region during this period, it's really hard to get the same buzz out of today's operations.
Many thanks for all your help on these threads.
 
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Peter Mugridge

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Well, the 1987 Combined Volume lists all 14 DBSOs as being at Craigentinny for the shuttles, and the following Mk 3 trailers:

7 x open composite ( 119xx series )

24 x open second ( this was before second class became standard class ).

There are also a number of Mk2s listed with Craigentinny allocations, but apart from the obvious example of the DBSOs mentioned above I don't recall seeing any of them in the shuttle rakes. Do remember also it was a 30 minute interval in those days - the 15 minute interval came in when the 158s took over.
 

55013

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If I remember correctly, 47701 - 47712 were created for Glasgow - Edinburgh workings.
These were deemed a success and so a few years later some Glasgow - Aberdeen services were added to the diagrams and 47713 - 47716 joined the fleet.
47713 then caught fire and was withdrawn, with its push/pull equipment being fitted to 47497, which became 47717.
 

sprinterguy

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47713 then caught fire and was withdrawn, with its push/pull equipment being fitted to 47497, which became 47717.
Ah, so that's why 47717 was converted so long after the others: I had been wondering while looking into the Scottish class 37 allocations yesterday, so thanks for that. :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There are also a number of Mk2s listed with Craigentinny allocations, but apart from the obvious example of the DBSOs mentioned above I don't recall seeing any of them in the shuttle rakes.
There's plenty of photographic evidence to suggest that air-con mark 2 rakes were primarily used on the Aberdeen push-pull services that were later introduced, with the mark 3s being used mainly on the Edinburgh-Glasgow shuttles as you state.

Mark 3 rakes used on the Edinburgh - Glasgow shuttles were typically formed DBSO - CO - 3/4 x TSOs - Class 47, so logically there should have been a maximum of seven carriage rakes available to complement the twelve locos originally converted.

There's a great photo here (not mine) of the two comparative formations side by side:
 
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theblackwatch

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To answer (B), the diagrams can be found in the Loco-Hauled Travel books that were produced by Platform 5/Metro Enterprises at the time. They regularly come up on ebay (there are a couple on at the moment) and also via ABE books.

Towards the end of 'shove duff' operations on the E&G, I seem to remember Mk.2 coaches sets started to appear to enable some of the Mk.3s to be released for refurbishment for InterCity West Coast.
 

HST43108

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Yes Peter, interesting indeed. It narrows things down. Some would have been kept in Glassgow overnight I am assuming.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Nice picture Sprinterguy, you wouldn't capture a scene like that today sadly. A great livery.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
One wonders why push pull was not spread out across the network. The amount off shunting and changing ends it would have saved would have been incredible. Wondered about 717s late arrival, thanks for that
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Theblackwatch - My postman is going to hate you :)
 

AJM580

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To answer (B), the diagrams can be found in the Loco-Hauled Travel books that were produced by Platform 5/Metro Enterprises at the time. They regularly come up on ebay (there are a couple on at the moment) and also via ABE books.

Dug out my copy of the Summer 1986 version (30 years ago) and it lists 10 M-Sat diagrams for 47/7 and 10 diagrams for Sunday, 5 covered Edinburgh - Glasgow, 4 covered Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen and the remaining loco worked Aberdeen - Edinburgh via Perth, stayed all day in Edinburgh then worked back to Aberdeen via Carstairs portions.
 

sprinterguy

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One wonders why push pull was not spread out across the network.
Well, to a large extent within the Intercity sector it did, in the form of the DVTs later employed on the East and West Coast main lines. A lot of other Intercity routes, such as the North East - South West axis, Midland Mainline and ECML pre-electrification had HSTs, and by the time that the idea had caught on the Provincial sector was looking at mass withdrawal of its' loco hauled fleet by Sprinter units.

The concept would have worked well on the likes of the Trans-Pennine Newcastle - Liverpool trains, though, which were fairly long-lived, and it's perhaps surprising that the rest of the Intercity Crosscountry network that retained loco-hauled trains, which did see some effort at modernisation at the tail end of the eighties in the form of the "47/8"s and air-con mini-buffets to replace mark 1 catering vehicles, didn't see the introduction of push-pull working at the same time, given the number of reversals some of their services experienced en route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It was a truly fascinating time in the Scottish region during this period, it's really hard to get the same buzz out of today's operations.
You're not wrong there: When you consider the breadth and variety of loco-hauled operations in Scotland during the eighties; including locos, coaching stock, formations and liveries covering the West Highland and Far North lines and Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen/Inverness domestic services amongst others; it makes the current procession of identikit burbling Turbostars and reliable if uninspiring Sprinters look very staid indeed.

At least the long distance services should see some improvement in their fortunes once the HSTs are introduced.
 
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HST43108

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Many thanks AMJ580, just what I was looking for. While a lot of you have pointed to various publications that have all the information which I very much appreciate it's great to be able to chat together as it stirs up great memories for us all....
You mentioned something Sprinterguy which is very true and gives us all something to look forward too, the arrival of the HSTs to Scottish domestic services. I worry that the Great Western Electricfication delays may scupper the HST plans but I suppose if all fails they could draft in the redundant East Coast HSTs when they are replaced and some Western Region sets.
An old Scotrail liveried HST set would have everyone out in their droves again spotting.
I know the "life after" for HSTs has been discussed many times in this forum but it's one thing I truly look forward too. Trans Pennie Routes would be another great place to see them and also on Holyhead Arriva route to Cardiff etc. The mind could run away :)
Thanks again for all your input, you like others have vast amounts of info stored away.
Glad it's been surfaced this week.
 

47271

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I've uncovered a precious and unexpected nugget in a conversation with my Dad this evening.

The very first scheduled push pull operation to Aberdeen from Queen Street occurred on Monday 9 February 1981, continuing as a regular diagram thereafter. It consisted of a regular E&G mk3 set plus a mk1 buffet. No immediate record of the locomotive but he thinks that he can dig it out, there may even be a photo somewhere...

So there you go, you can't get much more precise than that!
 

HST43108

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Yes 47271, there is no doubt it's wonderful stirring up old memories. Incredible what gets unearthed. I truly didn't know that as I am sure many others will be surprised to hear too.
You would make a great detective:)
The plot thickens !!!
 

Taunton

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The "push pull" (old name for the Class 27 at each end operation that was still appropriate for the Class 47 replacement) required four mainstream sets in use all day, plus a fifth used in the morning peak that then stood at Cowlairs for the day as a standby. The operation stayed pretty much the same from Class 27 days. Each set did a round trip on the 30 minute interval service every two hours, running time was 45 minutes so they were going for 75% of the day. Any locos and coaches beyond that would have been available for use elsewhere.

The brake wear was down to a couple of high speed braking efforts per round trip, eastbound into Haymarket and westbound at Cowlairs before the steep descent into Queen Street, plus stopping at Falkirk High. All these were done with a full brake application from 90 mph-plus down to slow speed or stop.

I wrote a while ago about the Class 27 days on the service in the 1970s here; the 1980s with the Class 47 were little different :

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1574189#post1574189
 

HST43108

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Hi Taunton, I have read the link you gave me, very interesting indeed. There was many more set available to spread around when the 47/7 era came along. The 27 push pull truly got flogged.
Am I correct in thinking the 27s sets did not do Aberdeen etc as the 5 were used solely on Glassgow - Edinburgh diagrams.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well, the 1987 Combined Volume lists all 14 DBSOs as being at Craigentinny for the shuttles, and the following Mk 3 trailers:

Peter, the 14 DBSOs you mention does that mean the were 14 sets of stock made up for Glassgow - Edinburgh & Glassgow - Aberdeen Shuttles or perhaps a few DBSOs were spare to slip in and out to cover for maintenance etc ??
 

Peter Mugridge

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I'm pretty sure there will have been a few spares, like with the locos - after all they have cabs and are therefore more likely to have a lower availability than pure trailers as there's more to be looked after and more to go wrong.

The didn't list rakes in the 1987 combined, but in any case the push-pull rakes, I seem to recall, were loose rather than semi-permanent.

Some DBSOs will have been used on those Aberdeens with the Mk2 stock as well. Note that the photo earlier in the thread shown a non-air conditioned Mk2 in one of the rakes as well. I could go through the volume looking for any EC allocated Mk 2 stock of all variants if that would help?
 

sprinterguy

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In 1987, the following mark 2 stock was allocated to Provincial Scotrail and maintained at Craigentinny:

2 x Mk.2/Mk.2A FK (13424/461), the former in Scotrail livery

4 x Mk.2E FO (3245/47/48/65), in Scotrail livery

5 x Mk.2 TSO (5146/52/53/76/97), in Scotrail livery
12 x Mk.2D TSO (5623/53/59/62/63/71/73/74, 5711/16/26/40), in Scotrail livery

6 x Mk.2D Micro-buffet (6601/04/05/13/14/19), in Scotrail livery

2 x Mk.2C BFK (17127/128)

In addition, the Scottish region of Intercity also had a number of vehicles allocated to Craigentinny, including a single Mk.2F FO in Scotrail livery (3284) and four Mk.2A TSOs in blue & grey. I'm not sure what these were used for compared to the Provincial sector vehicles, but there is photographic evidence of at least one Aberdeen push-pull rake being formed entirely of pressure ventilated, blue & grey mark 2s except for the DBSO.

Aberdeen formations seem to have been fairly fluid, but a typical formation would be DBSO - FO - TSO (Micro-buffet) - 2/3 x TSO - Loco, with pressure ventilated mark 2s replacing air-con TSOs or lengthening rakes as required.

As there were only six micro-buffet vehicles and a maximum of seven first class vehicles (including the Intercity Mk.2F), plus twelve Mk.2D TSOs, that does seem to suggest an upper limit of six such rakes. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be able to provide more detail or correct me if needed.
 
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HST43108

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Many thanks Peter, don't go to such trouble if it is inconvenient. You have a lot of knowledge on the subject :)
I see Sprinter guy has added some additional information below you response.
Very interesting times indeed.

Sprinterguy
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes Sprinter guy, it does seem 6 would be the most they could form from that mix.
Off the 14 DBSO how many are still around today. Some are on DRS Cumbian Coast jobs, saw one on other end of Class 31 test train in yellow. what happened the rest do you know ?
 
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sprinterguy

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Off the 14 DBSO how many are still around today. Some are on DRS Cumbian Coast jobs, saw one on other end of Class 31 test train in yellow. what happened the rest do you know ?
The DBSO fleet list can be seen here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driving_Brake_Standard_Open

Summary below:
9701 In service with Network Rail
9702 In service with Network Rail
9703 In service with Network Rail
9704 In service on the Cumbrian Coast
9705 In service on the Cumbrian Coast
9706 Scrapped following Polmont rail accident
9707 In service on the Cumbrian Coast
9708 In service with Network Rail
9709 Stored at Eastleigh
9710 In service on the Cumbrian Coast
9711 Stored at Tyseley
9712 Stored at Downpatrick (now 8918)
9713 Stored at Eastleigh pending move to Dereham
9714 In service with Network Rail
 

HST43108

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Great stuff Sprinterguy.
Think the one that went to Northern Ireland was used with the ex Gatwick stock purchased by NI Railways. I had forgotten one went there.
The two at Eastleigh and one at Tyseley, are they heading for preservation or possibly DRS.
 

randyrippley

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what has always surprised me is the failure to maintain push-pull working when the 47/7s were transferred to Waterloo-Exeter
given the Southern prediliction for fixed formation sets, and the existing experience with the 4-TC sets, you would have thought they'd have jumped at the chance. I know the driving trailers were hijacked for East Anglian duties (requiring a rebuild) but surely some of the existing Southern driving trailers (e.g. the redundant motor luggage vans) could have been easily fitted with the TDM remote controls? As the commands were sent over the existing lighting circuits, it would not have required a lot of work.
Many of the existing luggage/brake vans on the Waterloo/Exeter required replacing anyway: it wasn't unknown for ex-LNER Pigeon vans to turn up, and for a while there was an ancient clerestoried six-wheeled converted ex-coach in use as an all-brake. There was plenty of surplus driving trailers around which could have been converted
 

Shaw S Hunter

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what has always surprised me is the failure to maintain push-pull working when the 47/7s were transferred to Waterloo-Exeter
given the Southern prediliction for fixed formation sets, and the existing experience with the 4-TC sets, you would have thought they'd have jumped at the chance. I know the driving trailers were hijacked for East Anglian duties (requiring a rebuild) but surely some of the existing Southern driving trailers (e.g. the redundant motor luggage vans) could have been easily fitted with the TDM remote controls? As the commands were sent over the existing lighting circuits, it would not have required a lot of work.

Waterloo-Exeter may have appeared to be a (former) Southern Region service but after it was dieselised the responsibility for traction provision was largely with the (former) Western Region, except during the period when 33s were used (1970s). When the 50s dominated there were many accusations that Laira was not trying hard enough when in reality it was a route that was always hard on diesels. The 47/7s were already well-used by the time they came south and Waterloo-Exeter was a very different proposition to Edinburgh-Glasgow with its relatively high proportion of turn-round time. And the Western was not in any case an exponent of push-pull (except HSTs!).
 

Taunton

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And the Western was not in any case an exponent of push-pull (except HSTs!).
I think to the end of steam days they had more push-pull fitted steam locos than all the other companies added together (someone can waste a day counting them). The Castle Cary stopper was the last push-pull at Taunton, before my time it ended in the late 1950s. The Western built brand new push-pull cars (called Auto-Coaches on the Western) as late as the mid-1950s.

Meanwhile, back on 47/7s, I think the Polmont accident finished the concept for new implementation, there was some lag with the 47/7 controls which, although the driver had shut off and braked some seconds before the collision with the cattle, still had the loco pushing hard under power as the train went into derailment. I believe this was overcome with subsequent implementations on electric locos.
 

randyrippley

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The Western built brand new push-pull cars (called Auto-Coaches on the Western) as late as the mid-1950s.
One of my earliest memories is of a GWR tank engine sandwiched between a pair of chocolate & cream autocoaches at Yeovil Town, presumably for the Junction shuttle
 

Helvellyn

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Okay, going off memory here!

47701-710 were the original converted locos. They worked with 10 DBSOs (9701-9710) and seven sets of Mark 3A stock (11004-11010 and 12004-12031). Sets were formed DBSO-FO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-47/7. I've seen pictures where the DBSOs had 60x numbers on the cab front, which possibly suggests fixed formations of stock (Scottish DMUs were fixed formations and carried unit numbers).

The above set-up left three Class 47/7 and three DBSOs spare (along with I suspect at least one full set of stock). An extra push-pull set was therefore made up using Mark 2 stock. Vehicles selected had previously been used with the Class 27 top-and-tail push-pull sets, so were air braked (by means of disc brakes). These were the Mark 2 coaches that later gained ScotRail livery.

Two extra 47/7 locos were converted to bring this fleet up to 12. 47711/47712 emerged from Crewe Works in Large Logo livery. I'm unsure why the extra locos were needed, but I do recall that intense push-pull operation and 100mph operation of the 47/7s caused a lot of extra wear on the traction motor brushes. So my guess is that the extra locos were needed for reliability (especially with the Mk 2 set added to the Mk 3 ones).

The next stage was expansion of the push-pull sets to Edinburgh/Glasgow Aberdeen. Again, as has been mentioned, Mk 2D FOs, TSOTs and TSOs were selected for these services (coming from internal Scottish allocations). An additional three DBSOs were converted although these didn't gain disc brakes. I'm unsure if 9711-9713 were thus (even in theory) restricted to the Aberdeen services with the Mk 2D coaches.

The final DBSO, 9714, was a replacement for 9706 that was written off in the Polmont accident in 1985. Unlike 9711-13 it gained disc brakes.

As others have mentioned, 47717 was converted to replace fire damaged 47713.

One final footnote - it was mentioned that some InterCity stock turned up at the end as the Mk 3As went off for refurbishment. This was because the 158 programme was delayed, but InterCity had the refusrbishment of the ScotRail vehicles planned. So InterCity Mk 2F and Mk 3A TSOs were sent on loan to cover as a stop-gap until the 158s arrived to allow the refurbishments to take place as planned.


The Edinburgh-Glasgow service was considered for inclusion in the InterCity Sector at formation, along with Waterloo-Bournemouth/Weymouth. The ScotRail Express would have seemed the right sort of service to include, being a quality shuttle type service. That was why Gatwick Express ended up with InterCity. I suspect that the reason that ScotRail Express didn't was because the fleet was considered too small (i.e. the original 10 47/7s, 10 DBSOs, 7 FOs and 28 TSOs). I guess Waterloo-Bournemouth/Weymouth never went to InterCity due to the 432/438 stock. London-Norwich that was a similar length at least had air-conditioned Mk 2D stock.

The original HST proposals included some sets being purchased for Edinburgh-Glasgow, as well as TransPennine. The economy of the early 1980s killed that, but I wonder if such sets would have been 2+5 or 2+6 formation?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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I think to the end of steam days they had more push-pull fitted steam locos than all the other companies added together (someone can waste a day counting them). The Castle Cary stopper was the last push-pull at Taunton, before my time it ended in the late 1950s. The Western built brand new push-pull cars (called Auto-Coaches on the Western) as late as the mid-1950s.

True enough. But how often did GWR push-pull sets get beyond even three coaches in length in push mode? And they certainly didn't run at anything approaching "high-speed". Though you might describe some of the branches' running speeds to be a high-speed shunt!
 

30907

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what has always surprised me is the failure to maintain push-pull working when the 47/7s were transferred to Waterloo-Exeter

Marginal advantage, doubt it was even considered: it would only have saved the turnover loco at Waterloo; against that adding a full brake to the sets would have been largely dead weight - the Exeter sets were deliberately formed with the two BSOs in the middle because of short platforms IIRC.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Many of the existing luggage/brake vans on the Waterloo/Exeter required replacing anyway: it wasn't unknown for ex-LNER Pigeon vans to turn up, and for a while there was an ancient clerestoried six-wheeled converted ex-coach in use as an all-brake.

Are you talking late 80s? In the early 80s (I last worked at Waterloo in 1982) the only Exeter line trains to have full vans was the 0140 Yeovil papers which was formed of Mk 1s and BR bogie vans (GUV), though there was a 4 plus van set earlier for the late Exeter-Sarum. There are no ex LNE vans, even bogie ones, listed in my 1989 Platform 5.

I do recall seeing LNE type 6 wheeler toplight (not clerestory) vans in Clapham Yard in the 70's, but they wouldn't have been allowed on most SR class 1 trains even then.
 

Taunton

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True enough. But how often did GWR push-pull sets get beyond even three coaches in length in push mode? And they certainly didn't run at anything approaching "high-speed".
Well, two coaches was a legal maximum to be propelled, imposed long ago by the Board of Trade. This wasn't actually rescinded until the trials in the mid-1960s which led to the REP units on the Bournemouth line. A partial workaround was to have coaches both sides of the locomotive, and an absolute maximum was four coaches, two each side of the loco. Not all push-pull systems could handle coaches at both ends at the same time, but the GWR mechanical one could.

Now regarding "high speed", I can do no better than to quote what I dimly recall was a letter in "Trains Illustrated" I think about 1960. The writer had been in a Bristol to Gloucester train, hauled by an LMR Jubilee which no doubt did its usual thing of eventually getting up to 60mph on the favourable bits. Beyond Stonehouse the ex-GW line from Swindon swings alongside and the two run straight and parallel for some miles to Gloucester. From his seat in the express the writer was amazed to see a Western 14xx, running bunker-first, PROPELLING a single Auto Coach on the Chalford to Gloucester service which was one of the last bastions of such operation, and actually overtaking the express, having got up to well over 60mph from a standing start at Stonehouse. A subsequent letter then confirmed this was a regular event, that crews from Gloucester shed would race the LM expresses whenever they got a chance, and typically beat them.

Maybe it was a Western thing. I could describe races between Castle-hauled expresses on the Down Main and Minehead-bound 45xx on the Down Relief leaving Taunton, especially if the Castle had just be remanned with a fellow Taunton crew. But that's for another topic.
 

30907

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Well, two coaches was a legal maximum to be propelled, imposed long ago by the Board of Trade. This wasn't actually rescinded until the trials in the mid-1960s which led to the REP units on the Bournemouth line.

3 was not uncommon on the SR (in practice only the SW) where there were motor-fitted 4wh vans and thirds/seconds - but NOT on the same train! Vans on the Ringwood line (supposedly because of pram traffic in the 50s), spare coaches for Seaton, Swanage and Lymington at least.
 

Taunton

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it wasn't unknown for ex-LNER Pigeon vans to turn up, and for a while there was an ancient clerestoried six-wheeled converted ex-coach in use as an all-brake.
I think this refers to the LNER-design 6-wheeled brakes built well after nationalisation at Stratford Works in the 1950s, to an LNER design. They never had passenger accommodation. No clerestory, although they did have a high level window line like clerestories once did. They were around to the end of the 1970s on the Eastern, and certainly lasted well into the BR blue era. here's one

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brerbz/h3e5f4e4a#h3e5f4e4a
 

hexagon789

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I know it's a bit late, but in my defence I've only just joined! Regarding the Mk2 push-pull sets used from 1985-1990 on the Glasgow/Edinburgh-Aberdeen services I can provide the following information. Apologies if any of it has been mentioned above and I haven't noticed. Glasgow-Aberdeen went over to full push-pull operation from May 1985, with the Edinburgh services following in May 1986. While two of the Glasgow-Aberdeen and return services were operated by the Edinburgh-Glasgow Mk3 push-pull sets there were insufficient sets to permit all the Aberdeen services to be operated by the Mk3s and so the remainder were operated by Mk2 sets. The following coaches (not including the DBSOs which despite some remaining tread braked could appear on any set) were based at Craigentinny specifically for use in the Mk2 push-pull sets:
12 Mk 2d TSO (all in ScotRail livery)
5 Mk 2z TSO (ex-Edinburgh to Glasgow, all in ScotRail livery)
7 Mk 2d TSO(T) (6 in ScotRail livery, 1 remained in blue/grey for its entire existence on the push-pulls)
4 Mk 2e FO (all in ScotRail livery)
1 Mk 2f FO (in ScotRail livery)
2 Mk 2a FK (both in blue/grey)

Between 1986 and 1990 there were four diagrams for Mk2 push-pull sets on Glasgow/Edinburgh - Aberdeen services. While the formations were fairly fluid, with the addition/removal of a TSO or swapping of an air-con FO for an non air-con FK being the most common the basic formations were:

two sets of 5-coaches:
Class 47/7-Mk2d TSO-Mk2d TSO-Mk 2d TSO(T)-Mk2e FO-Mk2f DBSO

two sets of 6-coaches:
Class 47/7-Mk2z TSO-Mk2d TSO-Mk2d TSO-Mk2d TSO(T)-Mk2e FO-Mk2f DBSO

The diagrams for the sets were as follows:

Diagram 1 (five-car set) -
1A41 01:10 Perth-Aberdeen arr. 03:16
1T10 07:00 Aberdeen-GLQ
1A59 11:25 GLQ-Aberdeen arr. 14:13
1T32 15:05 Aberdeen-GLQ
1A71 19:25 GLQ-Aberdeen arr. 21:13
1L32 22:35 Aberdeen-perth

Diagram 2 (six-car set) -
1T06 05:25 Aberdeen-GLQ
1A57 09:25 GLQ-Aberdeen arr. 12:13
1B32 12:40 Aberdeen-Edinburgh
1A65 16:55 Edinburgh-Aberdeen arr. 19:40
1B42 20:30 Aberdeen-Edinburgh

Diagram 3 (five-car set) -
5A43 04:45 ECS Craigentinny-Perth
1A43 06:25 Perth-Dyce
1T13 08:45 Dyce-GLQ
1A61 13:25 GLQ-Aberdeen arr. 16:13
1T38 17:05 Aberdeen-GLQ
1L51 20:25 GLQ-Dundee arr. 21:52
5L51 23:10 ECS Dundee-Craigentinny

Diagram 4 (six-car) -
1A55 08:30 Edinburgh-Aberdeen arr. 11:16
1T26 13:05 Aberdeen-GLQ
1A67 17:25 GLQ-Aberdeen

Between 1985 and May 1986 the Glasgow-Aberdeen Mk2 push-pulls also included a Mk1 BG coupled between the loco and push-pull rake. 5 BGs were specially painted in ScotRail livery for this use, they were all fitted with B4 or B5 bogies to permit 100 mph running. Mk3a sleepers also appeared in both the Mk2 and Mk3 push-pull sets working back to Glasgow QS locked out of use after operating the QS-Aberdeen sleeper the previous night. Some other sample formations I'm aware, to illustrate how varied the Mk2 sets could be, follow here:

Glasgow-Aberdeen
Class 47 (Railfreight Distribution)-Mk2z TSO (ScR)-Mk2d TSO (ScR)-Mk2d TSO(T) (ScR)-Mk2e FO (ScR)-Mk2f DBSO (ScR0

Glasgow-Aberdeen
Class 47/7 (ScR)-Mk2z TSO (ScR)-Mk2d TSO (ScR)-Mk2d TSO (ScR)-Mk2d TSO(T) (ScR)-Mk2a FK (b/g)-Mk2f DBSO (ScR)

Glasgow-Aberdeen
Class 47/7-Mk1 BG-Mk2d TSO-Mk2z TSO-Mk2d TSO-Mk2d TSO-Mk2d TSO(T)-Mk2e FO-Mk2f DBSO (all ScotRail livery)

Edinburgh-Aberdeen 1987
Class 47/7 (ScR)-Mk2a TSO (b/g)-Mk2d TSO (ScR)-Mk2d TSO (ScR)-Mk2d TSO(T) (b/g)-Mk2e FO (ScR)-Mk2f DBSO (ScR)

Glasgow-Aberdeen 1987
Class 47/7 (ScR)-Mk2z TSO (ScR)-Mk2d TSO (ScR)-Mk2d TSO(T) (ScR)-Mk2a FK (b/g)-Mk2f DBSO (ScR)

Glasgow-Aberdeen 1987
Class 47/7 (ScR)-Mk2z TSO (ScR)-Mk2z TSO (ScR)-Mk2a BSO (b/g)-Mk2d TSO(T) (ScR)-Mk2a FK (b/g)-Mk2f DBSO (ScR)

Sunday Morning Edinburgh-Aberdeen October 1986
Class 47/7 47 708 "Waverley"-Mk2d TSO-Mk2d TSO-Mk2d TSO-Mk2d TSO(T)-Mk2e FO-Mk2f DBSO (all ScotRail liveried)

Aberdeen-Edinburgh
Class 47/7-Mk2d TSO-Mk2z TSO-Mk2d TSO(T)-Mk2e FO-Mk2f DBSO (all ScotRail liveried)

1A59 11:25 Glasgow QS-Aberdeen December 1986
Class 47/7 47710 "Sir Walter Scott"-4 Mk2d TSOs-Mk2d TSO(T)-Mk2e FO-Mk2f DBSO (all in ScotRail livery)

1T22 11:05 Aberdeen-Glasgow QS
Mk2f DBSO-Mk3a CO-5 Mk3a TSOs-Mk3a SLEP-Class 47/7 (all in ScotRail livery except SLEP which was in blue/grey)

Glasgow-Aberdeen December 1985
Class 47/7 47 701 "St Andrew"-Mk1 BG-3 Mk2d TSOs-Mk2d TSO(T)-Mk2f FO-Mk2f DBSO (all ScotRail livery, except Mk2f FO (blue/grey)

Aberdeen-Glasgow QS May 1985
Mk2f DBSO-Mk2e FO-Mk2d TSO(T)-3 Mk2d TSOs-Mk1 BG-Mk3a SLEP-Class 47/7 47 711 "Greyfriars Bobby) (all ScotRail liveried, except SLEP (blue/grey)

Dundee-Edinburgh June 1986
Class 47/7 47 707 "Holyrood"-Mk1 BG-3 Mk3a TSOs-Mk2d TSO(T)-Mk2e FO-Mk2f DBSO (all in ScotRail livery)

Aberdeen-Glasgow QS April 1990
Class 47/7 47 706 "Strathclyde"-Mk2f TSO (IC)-Mk2b TSO (b/g)-Mk2d TSO(T) (ScR)-Mk2a FK (b/g)-Mk2f DBSO (ScR)

I know it's a bit of an information overload, but hopefully the above information will prove interesting/helpful/of use to someone :)

In addition I have the 1986 Loco-Hauled Travel book which details locomotive diagramming including the Class 47/7s. If anyone would like me to post the diagrams for the 47/7s please let me know.
 

HST43108

Member
Joined
11 Apr 2016
Messages
25
Hi Hexagon
That's a lot of good information.
Would be great if you could scan in the diagrams for Queen St to Edinburgh, the locos were cycled through both Aberdeen and Edinburgh routes from Glassgow I presume, was the stock you spoke about above just isolated to Glassgow Aberdeen route ???
Thanks for the info.
 
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