4cig and 4vep

[bramling]

Blue Blaze 2 (the purple version) was fitted to units with low back seating - ie 313 / 315 / 455. I don't recall it being fitted to anything else and I think even some of those got Blue Blaze 1 at replacement covers were fitted.

As noted the version with smaller diagonal flecks was fitted in first class.

I always assumed the purple version was used on “inner suburban” trains, hence why stuff like the 313s had it.

The GN 313s certainly had it until reseated by WAGN, and it was actively being replaced where necessary during that time as I remember an overhauled unit turning up in the mid-90s with all new seat covers in the purple. The Silverlink units got the blue at some point though.

It’s only an assumption on my part that it was used for inner suburban though, but for some reason that’s what I always thought at the time.

 

[JonathanH]

I always assumed the purple version was used on “inner suburban” trains, hence why stuff like the 313s had it.

That is right, inner suburban units, but 313 / 315 / 455 were effectively the only units which were 'inner-suburban'. 465 were fitted with Blue Blaze 1 as I guess there was a decision to standardise on one type of moquette (until 159 and 166 came along).

I didn't travel on any West Anglia 305s. I think that some of the slam-door inner-suburban fleet facelifted before and around the time of NSE being launched (eg 415/4) got, I think, a slightly different version of the 'donkey stripe' moquette. The NSE DMUs that got new seat covers (eg 117s) got the 'Donkey stripe' or 'Blue Blaze 1' moquettes.

 

[yorksrob]

That is right, inner suburban units, but 313 / 315 / 455 were effectively the only units which were 'inner-suburban'. 465 were fitted with Blue Blaze 1 as I guess there was a decision to standardise on one type of moquette (until 159 and 166 came along).

I didn't travel on any West Anglia 305s. I think that some of the slam-door inner-suburban fleet facelifted before and around the time of NSE being launched (eg 415/4) got, I think, a slightly different version of the 'donkey stripe' moquette. The NSE DMUs that got new seat covers (eg 117s) got the 'Donkey stripe' or 'Blue Blaze 1' moquettes.

A few EPB's got green donkey stripe. Very pleasing it looked too.

 

[Waldgrun]

I recall some strange "one off" units! There was a 4 Gig on the southwestern division in the late 80's early 90's, which had a series 1 Brighton D.T.C. running with 3 vehicles of a series 2 unit, I recall the disappointment of Portsmouth Direct line commuters, who liked the deep comfy seats, that it wasn't a prototype refurbishment! Then there was a Central unit I think it was number 1864, which had one D.T.C. fitted with hopper windows, I believe due to a very heavy shunt! Not forgetting the Southwestern that had the bench seat by the guards compartment replaced by a drinks vending machine, (didn't last long!)

 

[Helvellyn]

A few EPB's got green donkey stripe. Very pleasing it looked too.

I think that was linked to plans for London & South Eastern (as what became NSE was originally named) to have three brands:

• Express
• Outer Suburban
• Inner Suburban

Only the first was launched properly, with the brown and orange Jaffa Cake livery applied to the majority of 4-CEPs, the first refurnished phase 1 4-CIGs (17xx series) and some 309s.

Outer suburban was supposed to have a blue based livery and inner suburban a green based one, which is probably why the green donkey stripe existed.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that was linked to plans for London & South Eastern (as what became NSE was originally named) to have three brands:

• Express
• Outer Suburban
• Inner Suburban

Only the first was launched properly, with the brown and orange Jaffa Cake livery applied to the majority of 4-CEPs, the first refurnished phase 1 4-CIGs (17xx series) and some 309s.

Outer suburban was supposed to have a blue based livery and inner suburban a green based one, which is probably why the green donkey stripe existed.

Indeed. If you've ordered the material, there's no point in wasting it.

 

[bramling]

I recall some strange "one off" units! There was a 4 Gig on the southwestern division in the late 80's early 90's, which had a series 1 Brighton D.T.C. running with 3 vehicles of a series 2 unit, I recall the disappointment of Portsmouth Direct line commuters, who liked the deep comfy seats, that it wasn't a prototype refurbishment! Then there was a Central unit I think it was number 1864, which had one D.T.C. fitted with hopper windows, I believe due to a very heavy shunt! Not forgetting the Southwestern that had the bench seat by the guards compartment replaced by a drinks vending machine, (didn't last long!)

I think the CIG with the hopper windows was the outcome of a fire, Cooksbridge springs to mind.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What slam door stock will probably have operated peak hours from the West Coastway line into London Bridge via Hove and Haywards Heath, circa 2000?

 

[JonathanH]

What slam door stock will probably have operated peak hours from the West Coastway line into London Bridge via Hove and Haywards Heath, circa 2000?

Predominately the express-type CIGs. However, some trains were formed of mix of 2+2 seated CIGs and 2+3 seated VEPs as putting a VEP in the formation provided 66 extra seats.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thanks. The peak hours services to London Bridge were quite busy back in the day, usually full and standing, and so I often ended up in the little goods compartment where there was a single tip up seat available for use, not an ideal start to the working day, but better than nothing, I suppose!

 

[Sprinter107]

I think that was linked to plans for London & South Eastern (as what became NSE was originally named) to have three brands:

• Express
• Outer Suburban
• Inner Suburban

Only the first was launched properly, with the brown and orange Jaffa Cake livery applied to the majority of 4-CEPs, the first refurnished phase 1 4-CIGs (17xx series) and some 309s.

Outer suburban was supposed to have a blue based livery and inner suburban a green based one, which is probably why the green donkey stripe existed.

There was a class 116 set at Tyseley, T323 set that had all three donkey stripe moquettes. One colour in each car. Your post just reminded me if it.

 

[Helvellyn]

There was a class 116 set at Tyseley, T323 set that had all three donkey stripe moquettes. One colour in each car. Your post just reminded me if it.

I've never seen pictures of the green donkey stripe moquette. The brown/orange version seemed to be used in First Class, and the blue version in Standard. I can only assume the green version was originally intended for suburban stock that was standard class only (which would tie with it appearing in the EPBs).

Never seen any mock-ups of the other two liveries either.

 

[JonathanH]

This is the interior of a (inner-suburban) 305. I hadn't looked for this picture before.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/keith-v/6102910725

The facelifted EPBs had the same moquette, albeit with higher backed seats.

It differs from the mainline version of that moquette by the substitution of green stripes in place of blue (although the predominant colour remains blue).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mk_tom/13979924087

https://heritagerailfabric.co.uk/catalogue/products.php?product=nse_donkey_stripe

 

[Sprinter107]

I've never seen pictures of the green donkey stripe moquette. The brown/orange version seemed to be used in First Class, and the blue version in Standard. I can only assume the green version was originally intended for suburban stock that was standard class only (which would tie with it appearing in the EPBs).

Never seen any mock-ups of the other two liveries either.

On class 116 set T323 it was blue donkey stripe in the DMBS, green in the TS, and brown in the DMS. They mustve had a bit of spare moquette floating around at Tyseley. Can't ever remember seeing the green version anywhere else. Sorry to go off topic, but I just remembered it.

 

[Helvellyn]

This is the interior of a (inner-suburban) 305. I hadn't looked for this picture before.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/keith-v/6102910725

The facelifted EPBs had the same moquette, albeit with higher backed seats.

It differs from the mainline version of that moquette by the substitution of green stripes in place of blue (although the predominant colour remains blue).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mk_tom/13979924087

https://heritagerailfabric.co.uk/catalogue/products.php?product=nse_donkey_stripe

Thanks for that. The fact all three moquettes have the orange stripe makes me wonder if the orange strip of the Jaffa Cake livery would have been used on the outer and inner suburban liveries (i.e. dark blue upper body/orange stripe/pale blue lower body and dark green upper body/orange stripe/pale green lower body).

To bring it back on topic we know 4-CIGs would have ended up in the Express livery, but would the VEPs have got the same (given they would work with 4-CIGs) or the outer suburban version?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/British-...ffa-Cake-livery-1983-Rail-Photo-/283371428915

 

[yorksrob]

Thanks for that. The fact all three moquettes have the orange stripe makes me wonder if the orange strip of the Jaffa Cake livery would have been used on the outer and inner suburban liveries (i.e. dark blue upper body/orange stripe/pale blue lower body and dark green upper body/orange stripe/pale green lower body).

To bring it back on topic we know 4-CIGs would have ended up in the Express livery, but would the VEPs have got the same (given they would work with 4-CIGs) or the outer suburban version?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/British-...ffa-Cake-livery-1983-Rail-Photo-/283371428915

That is a beautiful photo !

Don't think I ever saw a CIG in jaffa-cake - saw a couple with donkey-stripe moquette, but they were in NSE toothpaste at the time.

 

[Helvellyn]

That is a beautiful photo !

Don't think I ever saw a CIG in jaffa-cake - saw a couple with donkey-stripe moquette, but they were in NSE toothpaste at the time.

There's another picture on Blood and Custard in the lengthy 4-CIG article (a great read). Only the first eleven refurbished Phase 1 4-CIGs (1701-1711) gained the livery.

 

[yorksrob]

There's another picture on Blood and Custard in the lengthy 4-CIG article (a great read). Only the first eleven refurbished Phase 1 4-CIGs (1701-1711) gained the livery.

Ah, thanks for that. Saw it on plenty of CEP's in my younger days.

A beautiful livery - but we shouldn't be too sad about it being short lived as it was replaced by NSE - the best era of the South East to date IMO.

 

[JonathanH]

Only the first eleven refurbished Phase 1 4-CIGs (1701-1711) gained the livery.

Unlike the CEPs, they didn't keep the livery very long at all, being repainted into NSE. The South Eastern division appear to have had some dispensation to keep painting CEP units in Jaffa Cake livery for two years after the launch of NSE. Blood and Custard suggests the CIGs had Jaffa Cake colours for a year with 1712-1715 outshopped in blue-grey and that CEPs got Jaffa Cake colours until September 1988.

To bring it back on topic we know 4-CIGs would have ended up in the Express livery, but would the VEPs have got the same (given they would work with 4-CIGs) or the outer suburban version?

Did VEPs used to be diagrammed to work with CIGs on the same trains in the mid-1980s?

I get the impression that, later, as overcrowding increased, there was a need to switch VEPs to 'express work' and CIGs to some more lightly loaded counter-peak 'outer-suburban' work. It would seem to make sense for the VEPs to have got the outer-suburban version, otherwise there would be little point in having three liveries, but I guess any plans got overtaken by events.

 

[AY1975]

The CIGs came in two batches, first about 1963-64 to replace the 1930s Sussex Electrification stock, were an update of the Kent coast CEPs. Main difference was a tidier front end and motors under a central coach, instead of motors at outer ends. The guards compartment in motor coach was therefore in middle instead of smaller ones behind each cab.

Second batches were built 1966-1974, and the batches of VEPs and CIGs were built same years. The later CIGs took over from the 1937-38 4-COR units. Some of the earlier VEPs were all blue rather than mainline blue+grey, but later on the all blue was restricted to suburban stock.

The VEPs were for stopping trains so had doors at every seating bay, the CEPs only had doors at end and a middle door. The guards van was bigger (with 2 double doors on a VEP). The location of first class was also swapped, on CEPs was on outer (cab) end, on VEPs was on other end, with toilet by gangway connection. Both had 4 compartments but on CEPs one was an 8 seat second (but those in the know knew it had more legroom as it was first class size).

The CEPs composite vehicles had an odd row of 4 seats (by middle door), otherwise were 2+2 seating. I think these had tables originally but they were detachable and I only remember seeing them with small drinks tables below the windows. VEPs had 3+2 seating and because of the doors the luggage racks were V shaped metal racks facing sideways above the seat backs.

I remember VEPs with orange curtains, but I think they used to get dragged into the doorways by disembarking passengers, so didn’t last very long, but the CIGs kept them longer. In later years another first class compartment got downgraded, and the VEPs had part of luggage van converted to 2 extra seating bays of seats (but both rows didn’t all get doors). The lighting and saloon panelling also got changed in later life, and public address was added

There was a buffet equivalent of CIGs (BIGs) which simply substituted the trailer second for a buffet car

By Network SouthEast era, some buffet cars had been replaced by converted hauled stock, and the VEPs were used on stopping trains and busy peak hour trains. However in later years wasn’t uncommon to see mixed formations.

You are confusing the CEPs and the CIGs. The CIGs were an update of the CEPs, as you say, but it was the CIGs that had driving trailer composites with 1st class compartments at the outer end and a kind of "half bay" of four seats by the middle door. The CEPs had their toilets and 1st class compartments in the intermediate trailers whereas the CIGs and VEPs had them in the driving trailers.

Another important difference between the CEPs and the CIGs/VEPs was that on the CEPs the driving cars were the motor vehicles, whereas on the CIGs and VEPs the centre car with the guard's compartment was the motor vehicle. That was the vehicle to travel in if you wanted the best "thrash" and to hear the compressor!

I think the VEPs lost their curtains in about 1979/80ish, at the same time as the window sliding top vents were sealed (although I believe that for a very short while around that time at least one unit ran with single window panes but still with curtains). The Gatwick (4-VEG) units kept their curtains until they were converted back to standard VEPs in 1984, and the CIGs kept theirs until they were refurbished in the mid to late 1980s (although some of them ran unrefurbished but without curtains for a while). For a short time in the mid to late '80s some of them had beige curtains throughout instead of orange ones, then by the late '80s and early '90s they usually had blue curtains in 1st class. By the time of privatisation the Connex South Central VEPs and CIGs had even lost their curtains in 1st class, but the South West Trains and Connex South Eastern ones kept theirs until withdrawal.

In some ways I think it's a wonder that they bothered with curtains on the VEPs in the first place, although I suppose as they were meant for longer-distance semi-fast and stopping services it was felt that they should offer an ambience as near as possible to the CEPs, CIGs and the like. AFAIK the VEPs were the only units with a suburban style seating and door/window layout ever to be built with curtains throughout, except that the Class 310s and 312s originally had blinds in 2nd class and curtains in 1st.

 

[big all]

(although I believe that for a very short while around that time at least one unit ran with single window panes but still with curtains).

7755 springs to mind from memory??

 

[JohnElliott]

Thanks for that. The fact all three moquettes have the orange stripe makes me wonder if the orange strip of the Jaffa Cake livery would have been used on the outer and inner suburban liveries (i.e. dark blue upper body/orange stripe/pale blue lower body and dark green upper body/orange stripe/pale green lower body).

Interesting question. Chris Green's The Network SouthEast Story suggests that the middle stripe would have been the bit that changed (so the liveries would have been brown / blue / beige and brown / green / beige). But Live Rail at the time described the inner-suburban version as two-tone green, closer to your conception above.

 

[JonathanH]

Interesting question. Chris Green's The Network SouthEast Story suggests that the middle stripe would have been the bit that changed (so the liveries would have been brown / blue / beige and brown / green / beige). But Live Rail at the time described the inner-suburban version as two-tone green, closer to your conception above.

It seems plausible that they could both have been options - ie someone put together mock ups of two tone brown, two tone blue and two tone green, put that in front of the bosses who said 'I'm not sure that works' and then came back with mock ups where the stripe colour changed. Then NSE took over events. It is interesting that four CIGs were outshopped in blue-grey between 11 'Jaffa-cake' units and the launch of the NSE paint scheme.

The orange stripe as a fleet-wide feature does seem more likely given it was also a feature of the moquette.