4G on the tube

[mrmartin]

http://news.sky.com/story/tfl-preparing-to-provide-4g-on-the-tube-10899237

Transport for London (TfL) is preparing to hear bids from telecommunications firms to provide mobile phone coverage on the Underground.
TfL and London mayor Sadiq Khan will be opening a tender for private companies to provide 4G on the Tube after the General Election next week.
It could allow people to make calls and use the internet while on the Underground.
A number of companies are preparing to pitch for the work, according to sources quoted by the Financial Times.
These companies included telecommunications infrastrucutre companies such as BAI Communications, Wireless Infrastructure Group and Arqiva.

Absolutely great news. By far the biggest (relatively easily solvable) problem on the network IMO.

Anyone have any links to the tender docs?

 

[rebmcr]

My money is on this being the same as the current WiFi deployment — limited to station areas only.

They might be able to extend it to the SSL tunnels, but there simply isn't room in the deep tubes.

It will still be great compared to the WiFi, since the connection + login time currently exceeds the dwell time for the most part, making it next to useless. 4G should auto-connect more quickly, not require login, and can probably have one antenna per platform (so no more swapping between APs and restarting the login process mid-deceleration).

 

[infobleep]

Would be interesting if Huawei won the contract, given they offered to do this for free some years ago but were blocked I believe on security grounds.

Also I wonder what revenue TfL could generate from it, we're they to go into a revenue sharing scheme. Would it be from mobile phone companies but charging them to lll1 their customers to access it.

Currently if I wished to make a phone call I'd just use my TuGo app that O2 provide and use the WiFi. Other mobile phone providers offer automatic WiFi calling without the need for any apps.

 

[Nym]

Wonder if this has solved the previous reasons why 3G was a non-starter..?

 

[duncanp]

Oh dear, now we have to look forward to inane mobile phone calls on the sections of the network that are in tunnel.

One problem they haven't thought of is that the noise a tube train makes whilst it is in transit under ground will make it difficult to hear a phone ring or have a conversation without shouting at the top of their voice.

What is going to happen if several people are having a conversation at the same time in such a noisy atmosphere?

Hopefully he revenue will help to cover the shortfall in Tfl's income caused by the fares freeze.

I suppose it will be more used for data functions such as Facebook, Twitter, etc.

 

[D365]

Oh dear, now we have to look forward to inane mobile phone calls on the sections of the network that are in tunnel.

One problem they haven't thought of is that the noise a tube train makes whilst it is in transit under ground will make it difficult to hear a phone ring or have a conversation without shouting at the top of their voice.

What is going to happen if several people are having a conversation at the same time in such a noisy atmosphere?

Headphones are quite common, no?

 

[Blindtraveler]

To be able to send that all important Im running late text will be nice.

 

[tripleseis]

Don't see why this would be a problem. There's 4G coverage everywhere on the Tokyo Metro (I was there last week) and talking on phones on the trains over there is generally frowned upon. Most people were simply messaging or web surfing.

 

[bramling]

Don't see why this would be a problem. There's 4G coverage everywhere on the Tokyo Metro (I was there last week) and talking on phones on the trains over there is generally frowned upon. Most people were simply messaging or web surfing.

I think the ideal would be to support text messaging and data, but not voice calls.

The noise of the train in tunnels will make for a pretty unpleasant atmosphere as it will encourage people to shout in to their phones. If people need to make an important call then they can get off and do it at a station.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would have the support there but I doubt many would use voice on a train

 

[Scotty]

I think the ideal would be to support text messaging and data, but not voice calls.

You'd still get Facetime and other similar apps being used.

 

[rectoryroad]

Vodaphone already supports wifi in stations at platform level so it would be cool to see others supporting it

 

[sk688]

Oh dear, now we have to look forward to inane mobile phone calls on the sections of the network that are in tunnel.

One problem they haven't thought of is that the noise a tube train makes whilst it is in transit under ground will make it difficult to hear a phone ring or have a conversation without shouting at the top of their voice.

What is going to happen if several people are having a conversation at the same time in such a noisy atmosphere?

Hopefully he revenue will help to cover the shortfall in Tfl's income caused by the fares freeze.

I suppose it will be more used for data functions such as Facebook, Twitter, etc.

Instead of phone calls , I think 4G would be used more for web browsing , Snapchatting and social media etc

 

[bluegoblin7]

Vodaphone already supports wifi in stations at platform level so it would be cool to see others supporting it

All of the big networks do, and those not on a participating network can have wifi at platform level via the Virgin Media service.

Many of the providers already support 'Wifi calling' over these networks at platform level; some natively (EE), some with an additional app (O2).

 

[Tetchytyke]

We've had mobile coverage* in the tunnels of the Tyne and Wear Metro for nearly 15 years now, I wonder what has taken them so long?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3495413.stm

(*sadly it's now outdated technology, so we get voice/text data in the tunnels but the only internet is WAP, and that barely works).

 

[rebmcr]

We've had mobile coverage* in the tunnels of the Tyne and Wear Metro for nearly 15 years now, I wonder what has taken them so long?

There's much less room in the Victorian-age tubes.

 

[mrmartin]

Anyone know any updates on this? Been a while...

 

[anme]

Does anyone know why this seems to be such a problem on the London Underground? Literally every other metro system I have used has mobile coverage - often better than above ground!

 

[jellybaby]

Does anyone know why this seems to be such a problem on the London Underground? Literally every other metro system I have used has mobile coverage - often better than above ground!

Most metros have more space in the tunnels/stations than the deep tube which makes installing it on the tube more difficult and expensive.

There was a 4G trial on the Waterloo & City in 2017 which led to an announcement of 4G coverage 'on the Tube from 2019'. Full press release at
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...-coverage-on-tube-on-track-to-begin-from-2019

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure it's necessarily that hard to do, but it's obviously a big job. So was adding Wi-Fi to almost every station, but that was done.. but there's the question of cost.

TfL seemed unclear on how to best do it. Does TfL install the equipment and allow every operator to pay to use it, or get a single network to build it, or an infrastructure provider like Huawei to pay for it and receive money from operators.

There's also the need to ensure that it is built for the future, so can be upgraded for 5G, 6G and so on. The newer technologies allow for more capacity and lower latency, so this is quite a benefit in such environments.

 

[mrmartin]

Yeah that's why I was hoping there would be indication who won the tender. It was published ages ago - late '18 if I'm remembering correctly so thought there would be an update by now so we could figure out what is happening.

 

[infobleep]

This was the December 2017 report to the finance committee:
https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/d...ncations-commercialisation-project-update.pdf

The indicative timetable was as follows:

Milestone Target
ESN / PCN Trial complete Completed
PIN Notice Completed
PCN Business Case baselined Dec 2017
OJEU/SSQ Issued Feb 2018
ITT Issued Apr 2018
Tender return and bid evaluation June 2018
Contract award Summer 2018
Commercial negotiations within MNOs Summer 2018
Incremental coverage in stations / tunnels From Jan 2019

Not checked to see if they reported back to the committee at a later date with updates.

 

[mrmartin]

Well pretty disappointing news today https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49042588

Passengers will be able to make calls and go online anywhere on the London Underground by the mid-2020s.

Transport for London (TfL) has announced plans for mobile users to have 4G access across the Tube network.

The Jubilee Line will be the first to benefit, with the eastern half to get full mobile connectivity on both platforms and tunnels from March.

There are already 260 wi-fi-enabled stations on the London Underground and on TfL rail services.

It's going to take until mid 2020s (2025? 2026? 2027?) to roll out the whole project, with only the JLE with the exception of London Bridge and Waterloo ready next year. I really was under the impression it wouldn't be a massive job to do this considering how every other subway has managed this decades ago in most cases.

 

[Aictos]

Well pretty disappointing news today https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49042588

It's going to take until mid 2020s (2025? 2026? 2027?) to roll out the whole project, with only the JLE with the exception of London Bridge and Waterloo ready next year. I really was under the impression it wouldn't be a massive job to do this considering how every other subway has managed this decades ago in most cases.

This is why I consider London to be backwards and behind the times, yes there might be issues with the tunnels but it shouldn’t take another decade before the technology is available.

It really is disappointing!

 

[infobleep]

Well pretty disappointing news today https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49042588

It's going to take until mid 2020s (2025? 2026? 2027?) to roll out the whole project, with only the JLE with the exception of London Bridge and Waterloo ready next year. I really was under the impression it wouldn't be a massive job to do this considering how every other subway has managed this decades ago in most cases.

Wonder why Waterloo and London Bridge were excluded from the trial? Too many people using them?

I do hope the works are ones that can be easily upgraded to 5G or accommodate 5G with minimal works later, as that will be more important in the future than 4G

 

[mrmartin]

They've specifically said that 5G isn't going to be covered as would take too much space, which I find slightly curious. If it is going to take until 2027 we could see 4G being end of life by then!

 

[Busaholic]

Oh, wonderful, the ability to have all your data stolen deep on the tube in addition to everywhere else. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[mrmartin]

Oh, wonderful, the ability to have all your data stolen deep on the tube in addition to everywhere else. Be careful what you wish for.

Do you know anything about TLS?

 

[Busaholic]

Do you know anything about TLS?

I've no idea what TLS is. I do know the direction the technology is sending the human race heading in, though. Mastery for the few, servitude for the many.

 

[rebmcr]

You can already have your data stolen while on the tube. It's sitting on an Amazon storage server somewhere on an industrial estate, not the phone itself.

(In other words, stop scaremongering — at the very least until you've actually taken the time to research and understand.)