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5 people suspended after SouthEastern rail tour driven by "unauthorised" person.

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ComUtoR

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I do wonder, though, just how 'in charge' of the driving this unauthorised person really was,

A 10yr old could do it. The first time you "drive" you are following instruction and nothing else. I still remember the first time I "drove" I sat in the seat, put my feet on the Drivers Safety Device, my hand on the controller, and looked out the front window. That's pretty much all I did.

I've been up the front of a Javelin at 140mph and you can literally drive with the blinds down.

and were lives really at risk? I wouldn't presume to know the answers, but hopefully others do.

No more than any other day. Probably a slight increase in risk due to the additional people in the cab but that will depend on the cab discipline shown by everyone.
 
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Bletchleyite

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A 10yr old could do it. The first time you "drive" you are following instruction and nothing else. I still remember the first time I "drove" I sat in the seat, put my feet on the Drivers Safety Device, my hand on the controller, and looked out the front window. That's pretty much all I did.

FWIW, I've driven a Class 101 set at Wirksworth (under instruction) and the physical driving was not that difficult even with a semi-manual transmission to deal with and a vacuum brake (far harder to control than a modern brake). I even did a fairly convincing emergency stop when we were on the not-yet-in-passenger-use bit of the line and there was a tree that was a bit close that they wanted to remove. The training for this was sitting behind the driver on North West Class 101s for a few years :)

The difficult bits of driving a train are (a) making it stop exactly where you want it to (the instructor would tell you where to start braking and at what rate), and (b) all the other safety responsibilities - route learning, what to do in emergency etc (they would handle that).
 

185

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A 10yr old could do it. The first time you "drive" you are following instruction and nothing else.

Agree, under competent instruction the person incharge of the movement of the train is ultimately the instructor.

Thus, theoretically Martha the Bornean Orangutan of Chester Zoo could drive 1A20 Euston-Picc.

Would probably do a better job than certain other qualified primates :)
 

big all

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driving a train on a route you know well in stock you know well will use perhaps 3-5% of your attention the other 95-97% will be your subconcious this leaves your active brain to cope with the many varients as they happen without getting worked up or distracted at all even when major things go wrong if you find a job stressful you are in the wrong job;)
 

theblackwatch

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I think it's pretty fair to say that if an allegation is made, SouthEastern is duty bound to investigate it. Or are some people saying that the firm shouldn't bother to do so?
 

big all

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should definately throw the book at him but taking all facts into consideration with flexability allowing for the fact it was stupid but was it dangerous
 

ComUtoR

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flexability allowing for the fact it was stupid but was it dangerous

The article quotes Southeastern as saying that safety was not compromised. I think the safety aspect has been asked and answered.
 

big all

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The article quotes Southeastern as saying that safety was not compromised. I think the safety aspect has been asked and answered.
not quite that simple i am afraid
public face is to play it down
inside face hammer the people that have done a silly if not quite fully safe thing often for better there own position :rolleyes:
 

theblackwatch

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I don't think anyone has suggested or implied that. Weird that you would think so.

It was a couple of comments such as If "At no point was the safety of the train in question", then what's the problem? and as long as you're well supervised what's the problem? that made me wonder.
 

Chrisgr31

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A 10yr old could do it.

I think my daughter was 10, may of just been 11 when she did do it! Although to be fair she was driving a simulator rather than the real train but it was the same simulator that drivers are trained on.

I had a go as well and yes its relatively easy to start and stop a train, its a lot more difficult to stop it at the right spot and drive at a speed to stick to the timetable etc. I am not suggesting that anyone could do the job of a train driver as there is a lot more to it than getting a train moving and stopping.

Its unclear to me how many of these crew were in the cab at the time of the event, and those suspended appear to be South Eastern staff, that begs the question as to who had route knowledge as the train was well off its normal route. However I very much doubt anyone would have taken any action that they believe was unsafe particularly with so many potentially in the cab.
 

ComUtoR

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It was a couple of comments such as If "At no point was the safety of the train in question", then what's the problem? and as long as you're well supervised what's the problem? that made me wonder.

For me, they seemed like genuine questions. There was a Manager and Instructor in the cab so on the surface you can see why some may see this as a little odd. People don't see that small print and that this was a breaking of internal procedure (as they were not authorized to be there) they have no basis for comparison and with little to go on from the article its easily misunderstood.

that begs the question as to who had route knowledge as the train was well off its normal route.

Another good point to consider.
 

ComUtoR

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inside face hammer the people that have done a silly if not quite fully safe thing often for better there own position :rolleyes:

The problem with that is; they have publicly declared it was still safe. Any disciplinary hearing would now fail if based on that. They should have simply stated that this incident was under investigation and any appropriate action will be taken.
 

Mintona

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It sounds like a messy scenario but I don’t think any intention of malice was intended and I hope everybody concerned comes out unscathed. The comments under the story on the Evening Standard site are eye opening if true.
 
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causton

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Its unclear to me how many of these crew were in the cab at the time of the event, and those suspended appear to be South Eastern staff, that begs the question as to who had route knowledge as the train was well off its normal route.

Southeastern can't suspend another company's staff. And it is in the opinion of the other company who provided any route conducting staff (if we assume that is what happened) what happens to that member of staff, they may have been suspended as well but the news might not have found out about it. Or the other company might have said 'Our staff member was just there to route conduct and is not involved in this incident at all' and not taken any action against their member of staff.

However, this is all just wild speculation so useless for finding out what actually happened that day.

What I can say is that to assume that Southeastern planned a railtour without organising someone who had knowledge of the planned route to either drive or route conduct the train, is silly at best and distracting from the real issue here!
 

bnm

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The article quotes Southeastern as saying that safety was not compromised. I think the safety aspect has been asked and answered.

Southeastern may be the body responsible for implementing and maintaining safety, but they aren't the ones to investigate safety breaches. If, as reported, it is they who have informed the ORR then I think it's premature of them to state safety wasn't compromised.

That's for the investigating body to establish.
 

big all

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i think we need some perspective here
many an untrained person will drive a train but off course fully supervised by a competent person often an instructor or instructor driver who will be fully qualified and will only let people take control in a safe fashion under instruction where close proximity will make sure no danger will take place yes the odd bit off jerky riding whilst they learn the finer points off train control
there will never be any danger letting a not fully develop person drive a train if basic judgment is used the worst that can happen is a wrong position or jerky stop quite similar to a training school situation
all drivers are responsible and professional and have the ability to judge and providing they are in the cab at all times the action off the person in training will always be safer than the driver in control
as in iff the driver suggest heavy braking there will be a reserve as in get it wrong you can up the rate off braking and still stop in the station perhaps at the 10 car mark rather than the 6 or eight
in other words someone in training will always do things in a manor less agressive less dangerous otherwise the driver will bollock take control or what ever to correct the wrong actions it will never be dangerous as full control is never more than 2 feet away
trainees will always lack the skills some more than others
a drivers ability to judge the ability off any person to control a train in a safe manner is a reasonable expectation as driver are not pchycopathic
 
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pdeaves

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Is the issue simply that the person in the driver's seat was not any one of the people Southeastern said was allowed in the driver's seat? A matter of authorisation, regardless of how many competent people were present and even supervising?
 

DarloRich

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For clarification: Is the issue that someone unqualified drove a train or that a qualified driver/instructor drove the train but without the correct route knowledge?
 

Mintona

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For clarification: Is the issue that someone unqualified drove a train or that a qualified driver/instructor drove the train but without the correct route knowledge?

Neither are correct but the second one is much closer.
 

pompeyfan

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The route knowledge can’t have been that bad, as the train was booked (and offered) into platform 1 at the harbour but the driver didn’t take it.
 

leezer3

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It sounds to me like the conductor actually drove from all the hyperbole above.....

In other words, a qualified driver, and someone who signed the route, but not the specific stock/ company?
If so, shows the absolute folly of the current privatised mess.....
 

Welshman

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Could the question of insurance have figured in this?

Presumably the TOC has all its authorised drivers insured.
Thankfully, there was no accident/incident, but had there been one involving this train, even one caused by a third party and this "driver" was not to blame, would the insurance company pay-up if it became known an "unauthorised" person was at the controls at the time?

I can be a perfectly safe driver and know the car/road, etc, but if someone ran into me and I were uninsured, there would be more problems.
 

Mintona

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It sounds to me like the conductor actually drove from all the hyperbole above.....

In other words, a qualified driver, and someone who signed the route, but not the specific stock/ company?
If so, shows the absolute folly of the current privatised mess.....

I don’t think that’s what happened.
 

Chrisgr31

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What I can say is that to assume that Southeastern planned a railtour without organising someone who had knowledge of the planned route to either drive or route conduct the train, is silly at best and distracting from the real issue here!

Just for clarity that wasn’t my assumption at all. My assumption all be it not stated was that either South Eastern crew had had to go out route learning or someone else was also in the cab the latter being more likely.
 

mpthomson

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i think we need some perspective here
many an untrained person will drive a train but off course fully supervised by a competent person often an instructor or instructor driver who will be fully qualified and will only let people take control in a safe fashion under instruction where close proximity will make sure no danger will take place yes the odd bit off jerky riding whilst they learn the finer points off train control
there will never be any danger letting a not fully develop person drive a train if basic judgment is used the worst that can happen is a wrong position or jerky stop quite similar to a training school situation
all drivers are responsible and professional and have the ability to judge and providing they are in the cab at all times the action off the person in training will always be safer than the driver in control
as in iff the driver suggest heavy braking there will be a reserve as in get it wrong you can up the rate off braking and still stop in the station perhaps at the 10 car mark rather than the 6 or eight
in other words someone in training will always do things in a manor less agressive less dangerous otherwise the driver will bollock take control or what ever to correct the wrong actions it will never be dangerous as full control is never more than 2 feet away
trainees will always lack the skills some more than others
a drivers ability to judge the ability off any person to control a train in a safe manner is a reasonable expectation as driver are not pchycopathic


It would help your posts immensely, as they appear to contain useful information, if you could use capital letters and punctuation and use paragraphs appropriately. This post is almost unreadable without it.
 
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