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5 people suspended after SouthEastern rail tour driven by "unauthorised" person.

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big all

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yes i appologise as a auld reekie lad english was my second worst subject french was my worst
what comes naturally to some takes me a life time
i would rather spend my time helping others and being useful
its not lazyness its just it takes me ten times longer than most
life is to short at my age 65 as an ex railwayman platform signal box for about 3 years and footplate 22 years but out off date by 24 years punctuation grammer are a struggle and again i apollogise
at present "appologise" "english" and "lazyness" are coming up as wrongly spelt now i have the choice off helping others or going back to words that are perfectly legible although wrongly spelt and whilst i will go back and correct most through trial and error whilst i am "on a rant" i tend to post from the heart warts and all
 
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krus_aragon

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The words are legible, that's no problem. Putting a full stop at the end of a sentence just helps people find where you've finished one point, and are starting the next. When you listen to someone speaking you can listen out for the short pauses, but that doesn't help with writing.

At the moment, it looks like you're starting a new line when you start a new point. If you put a full stop just before the new line, that will make it a lot easier for readers to follow you. Or maybe leave an empty line in between the two paraghraphs, if the full stop doesn't suit you. (Some of the sentences will still be a bit long, but they'll be easier to follow than as one big block of words.)

I know better than to try and teach an old dog new tricks, and as you say you've worked many a year in a role where writing wasn't part of the job. But maybe making a little tweak is possible.
 

matchmaker

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My grandmother lived near Wormit in Fife and she told me about an accident there in the 1950s when a Sunday school charter train ran into the station going too quickly, and derailed (with 3 deaths). The later enquiry reportedly revealed that the driver had had a drink or two and that there were 3 unauthorized passengers on the footplate including one of the children on the outing, and so perhaps the crew’s attention had not been as focused as it should have been.

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/...into-wormit-station-with-539-people-on-board/

Being very strict about who is in the drivers cab when a train is operational, is pretty important in my opinion.

Wormit was a bad one. The train left the rails in a tunnel because of excessive speed. It was apparently rumoured locally that the child on the footplate was driving. MOT report attached.
 

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Surreytraveller

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You mean the one where there was a suggestion the guard may have been at the controls but was never actually proven. In any respect, fully qualified drivers have caused accidents/incidents so that logic doesn't really wash.
But it wasn't disproven either, because he was in the cab and had been caught driving trains before.
 

big all

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So in other words, a paperback? ;)

It would help your posts immensely, as they appear to contain useful information, if you could use capital letters and punctuation and use paragraphs appropriately. This post is almost unreadable without it.

The words are legible, that's no problem. Putting a full stop at the end of a sentence just helps people find where you've finished one point, and are starting the next. When you listen to someone speaking you can listen out for the short pauses, but that doesn't help with writing.

At the moment, it looks like you're starting a new line when you start a new point. If you put a full stop just before the new line, that will make it a lot easier for readers to follow you. Or maybe leave an empty line in between the two paraghraphs, if the full stop doesn't suit you. (Some of the sentences will still be a bit long, but they'll be easier to follow than as one big block of words.)

I know better than to try and teach an old dog new tricks, and as you say you've worked many a year in a role where writing wasn't part of the job. But maybe making a little tweak is possible.
i fully accept all your comments as being nothing but helpful and indeed everything you say is correct :D
my brain being my brain gets really really bored with the whole mallarky
this is actually a vast improvement over say 15 years ago when i first started on the screwfix forum
yes last nights effort was particularly bad as things go a bit off a regression so i will try harder :D
 

ejstubbs

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I remember as a schoolboy in the 1980s getting a certain special train (I won't be specific on details) where around 20 people were crowded into the cab and the driver had a young lady on his lap driving the train. Of course Health & Safety hadn't been invented then.

You sure?

Health and Safety At Work etc Act 1974 (Gotta love that "etc"! I'm tempted to have a read of the text of the act to find out what they slipped in there that wasn't to do with 'elf'n'safety.)
 

Edders23

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I remember as a schoolboy in the 1980s getting a certain special train (I won't be specific on details) where around 20 people were crowded into the cab and the driver had a young lady on his lap driving the train. Of course Health & Safety hadn't been invented then.


I can remember in the 70's about 14 or 15 spotters having a ride along the platform at March in the cab of a 47 but the driver was defo at the controls. It was often a case as well that a number of us got to board the 31 on the local trip and have a ride up to Ketton whilst they picked up the cement traffic. In those days the drivers were quite friendly to spotters in that way but never permitted to touch the controls
 

Chrisgr31

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The issue with Cowden being that it wasn’t unexpected
Probably not appropriate for me to comment any further, but regardless rules were broken.

Fairly sure the report stated that he had been reprimanded for driving before. Certainly Wikipedia says he had. It was always feared by many people there would be an accident on the single track, as passengers it always worried us.
 

Sunset route

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From the other side of the wheel rail interface from what “comutor” is saying you get brand new signaller trainees fresh from signalling school going into some pretty busy PSBs or ASCs like Doncaster, Colchester, Kings Cross, Warrington, Preston, Three Bridges, Victoria amongst many others. Where the fresh recruit could be signalling on a live railway up to 60 or so trains an hour off peak through multiple Junctions on multiple lines also dealing with track workers, with no real way to intervene if things are going wrong apart from a quick ear and fingers ready to jump in. They know and have passed all the theory but that tends to disappear out of the window for the first few weeks until their brains get up to speed. But it’s all supervised and under strict instruction.
 

ComUtoR

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Victoria amongst many others. Where the fresh recruit could be signalling on a live railway up to 60 or so trains an hour off peak through multiple Junctions on multiple lines also dealing with track workers, with no real way to intervene if things are going wrong apart from a quick ear and fingers ready to jump in.

This is Trainee Signaller speaking...

...This is Trainee Driver

The blind leading the blind :)
 
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The route knowledge can’t have been that bad, as the train was booked (and offered) into platform 1 at the harbour but the driver didn’t take it.

This. I was on the train and the explanation was that the driver requested platform three as platform 1 wasn't sufficiently long to accommodate the whole train to allow all doors to be released.
 

2HAP

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Can we please not forget that the basic cause of the Cowden accident was BR pennypinching by singling the line between Ashurst and Edenbridge. If the line hadn't been singled, then the accident would never have happened, SPAD or not.
 

yorksrob

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Can we please not forget that the basic cause of the Cowden accident was BR pennypinching by singling the line between Ashurst and Edenbridge. If the line hadn't been singled, then the accident would never have happened, SPAD or not.

To be fair, singling a line isn't in itself dangerous - there have been many single lines for many years.

I can't remember whether the Uckfield line had catchpoints at the time, but lack of these would have been a more effective focus of blame.
 

Sunset route

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To be fair, singling a line isn't in itself dangerous - there have been many single lines for many years.

I can't remember whether the Uckfield line had catchpoints at the time, but lack of these would have been a more effective focus of blame.

Catch points wouldn’t of prevented it (as it wasn’t a runaway in the wrong direction) but trap points would of done.
 

muz379

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Just because the cab is big, doesn't mean they were all in the cab at the same time.

Indeed . I have known of instances in the past when people who have not directly witnessed an instance of rules contravention have been suspended because they have known about it but been inextricably complicit in ensuring the instance goes unreported .
 

big all

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Can we please not forget that the basic cause of the Cowden accident was BR pennypinching by singling the line between Ashurst and Edenbridge. If the line hadn't been singled, then the accident would never have happened, SPAD or not.
the guard who died was the best man at my wedding
nice lad very individual very different very john rip:(
 

bramling

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Fair point. I stand by my point that single track isn't necessarily the problem.

Nowadays with the likes of TPWS there’s no real safety issue. However a reasonable argument could certainly be forumulated that at that time the layout increased risk by introducing more serious consequences to any SPAD which might occur.

Cowden wasn’t the only fatal accident to occur on a singled line around that time. Newton was another accident where the layout design arguably contributed, and which (I presume) would have been prevented by TPWS.

The risk of a SPAD on OD.58 could perhaps, with a hefty dose of hindsight, have been foreseen, along with the potential consequences. Repeater signal, usually seen on, in the rear of a station. A stop signal clearly visible in normal conditions but often seen at danger, so a situation ripe for being “normalised” by the driver. Add in perhaps some distraction, fog, and all it needed to take was a subconscious AWS cancellation - if indeed the AWS was functional which was a matter of conjecture in itself.
 
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yorksrob

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Nowadays with the likes of TPWS there’s no real safety issue. However a reasonable argument could certainly be forumulated that at that time the layout increased risk by introducing more serious consequences to any SPAD which might occur.

Cowden wasn’t the only fatal accident to occur on a singled line around that time. Newton was another accident where the layout design arguably contributed, and which (I presume) would have been prevented by TPWS.

The risk of a SPAD on OD.58 could perhaps, with a hefty dose of hindsight, have been foreseen, along with the potential consequences. Repeater signal, usually seen on, in the rear of a station. A stop signal clearly visible in normal conditions but often seen at danger, so a situation ripe for being “normalised” by the driver. Add in perhaps some distraction, fog, and all it needed to take was a subconscious AWS cancellation - if indeed the AWS was functional which was a matter of conjecture in itself.

Indeed, but as I understand it, trap points could have mitigated that risk.

Anyhow, if it was up to me, the line would be double track to Lewes !
 

Chrisgr31

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Even cab radios, which I believe were mandated after Clapham, but implementation stopped, would have prevented the accident. The signaller had even contacted the emergency services to warn them there was likely to be a crash, he just didn't know where.

This is of course off topic though and whether an authorised person was driving at Cowden or not the safety systems have changed considerably since then so the risks of that sort of thing causing an accident are significantly less.

In this case it appears there was a driver driving but possibly not qualified for the train or route.
 

etr221

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Regarding the original Javelin issue, the problem is that we don't (from the information above) know who the unauthorised person was, hence why he wasn't authorised ... and as Sherlock Holmes said, you shouldn't theorise without data.

Regarding Cowden, as it has come up, my understanding is that the station stop was (and I believe still is) between the starting signal (controlling access to the single line) and its distant signal - i.e. the train could and did start, accelerate and then approach a signal without any warning that it was at danger: and I believe that this was a significant factor leading to the accident. There was I believe an accident, at about the same time, at Western Avenue, Chicago on (IIRC) the CRI&PRR, with similar contributory factor - a signal at danger some distance from the station stop, without any intermediate warning signal.
 

tsr

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Probably not appropriate for me to comment any further, but regardless rules were broken.

There's still a fair amount of internal politics about the Cowden incident, so I can understand that.

Opinions certainly remain divided both about the report and about who was to blame.

True, I'm just saying it is feasible. I've been in an 800's cab with 6 in and it didn't feel cramped.

There are certain TOCs with rules which dictate that anything above 4 people in the cab would require special authorisation.

Can we please not forget that the basic cause of the Cowden accident was BR pennypinching by singling the line between Ashurst and Edenbridge. If the line hadn't been singled, then the accident would never have happened, SPAD or not.

It's entirely possible that a SPAD could have had horrific consequences elsewhere. There are several signals on the Oxted Lines which could lead to a major collision if a SPAD occurred at any speed, especially if TPWS equipment wasn't working for any reason.

To be fair, singling a line isn't in itself dangerous - there have been many single lines for many years.

I can't remember whether the Uckfield line had catchpoints at the time, but lack of these would have been a more effective focus of blame.

The Uckfield Line does not have trap or catch points.

Even cab radios, which I believe were mandated after Clapham, but implementation stopped, would have prevented the accident. The signaller had even contacted the emergency services to warn them there was likely to be a crash, he just didn't know where.

This is of course off topic though and whether an authorised person was driving at Cowden or not the safety systems have changed considerably since then so the risks of that sort of thing causing an accident are significantly less.

In this case it appears there was a driver driving but possibly not qualified for the train or route.

Cab radios won't always prevent crashes. There have been plenty of stories around the country of people pushing big red buttons (the GSM-R emergency group call) and other services carrying on flying past without a care in the world. Or the wrong areas being stopped. And in one instance of which I am aware, a driver struck something on a route which is fairly near the line through Cowden (though not actually on that line). The driver who made the call was inexplicably cut off from the voice comms, the signaller deemed there not to be an emergency and instructed all drivers that the emergency call was finished. The situation was only resolved by the driver making a second emergency call and holding down the push-to-talk button so that nobody could say anything.

In other scenarios, perhaps the other way round (which is more pertinent), there have been issues where drivers have not responded to emergency calls made by signallers and the signallers have been unable to ascertain if they have been able to get trains stopped. I am aware of one such incident very recently on an Uckfield Line service. Luckily the driver did get the message, but the two-way comms were non-existent.

Regarding Cowden, as it has come up, my understanding is that the station stop was (and I believe still is) between the starting signal (controlling access to the single line) and its distant signal - i.e. the train could and did start, accelerate and then approach a signal without any warning that it was at danger: and I believe that this was a significant factor leading to the accident.

The signalling is still arranged as such.

There are mitigations now, including mandatory use of the DRA (Driver's Reminder Appliance) on the Up Uckfield Line during station calls at Ashurst if the preceding distant was showing a single yellow. The signal sighting is also quite good for the main OD58 signal - the two-aspect red/green signal which protects Blackham Junction, which is the one just north of Ashurst, controlling access onto the single line. Even in mist or snow, the signal has a habit of being quite visible from a reasonable distance. There are also SPAD Indicators at all junctions between Uckfield and Edenbridge Town.

An important distinction as well - said OD58 signal is not regarded as a starter signal in the dispatch sense. "Up" Trains will always draw forward from Ashurst station to Blackham Junction, unless instructed by the TOC controllers to remain in the platform, which would only occur during service disruption. It is my opinion that it would be more sensible to always hold trains in the station platform if OD58 is at danger, perhaps by use of a banner repeater, or it may be best to consider relocating OD58, but there would be a performance impact of sorts.

It would be even better to redouble the line up to Cowden, where the second platform could be refurbished with comparatively little effort, and have a shorter single line section north of there, which would also minimise reactionary delays from late-running southbound trains on the single line (but also prevent the undoubtedly higher cost of redoubling through Mark Beech Tunnel). You could just fit a set of points between the platforms and the tunnel, which could be protected by starter signals on the platforms and TPWS grids.
 

krus_aragon

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... and as Sherlock Holmes said, you shouldn't theorise without data.
Here you go then:
Sherlock_Holmes.jpg

Star Trek's Lieutenant Commander Data dressed as Sherlock Holmes

Sorry, couldn't resist! :)
 
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