50007 Hercules?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Schnellzug

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2011
Messages
2,926
Location
Evercreech Junction
I see that there's an Appeal that's been launched to have 50007 repainted Blue and renamed back to Hercules. ( link , also accessible from wnxx.com). I can't help thinking, there's about a dozen that are in Blue already, so why not keep one, that can legitimately carry something different, different? That's what i always say. If people wanted to campaign to have one repainted, I can't help looking in the direction of 50035 ....
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
I still don't get the whole anti-Sir Edward Elgar thing, it is a lump of metal used to haul trains and the owner has the right to have it in whichever livery (s)he wants with whatever name (s)he wants on it.

I haven't seen any major hate for 50017 (50117 RfD or 50017 LMS), 50035 (50135 Loadhaul) or 50044 (Two tone green), so I can only assume that, as it is still going strong after nearly 30 years, it is a name thing. The 50s only had names applied to appease the Warship followers who had a hissy fit over their withdrawl from service.

I really think people need to get over it now, rather than waste £3,000.

Is it possible the loco is in need of a repaint and the owner can't (or won't) afford it?
 

4SRKT

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2009
Messages
4,409
I can't believe someone is trying to revive this nearly 30 year old controversy! Forget arguments about pacers or whether Pendos are better than mk IIIs or vice versa, the 50007 thing was by far the most acrimonious event I can ever recall in all my years as an enthusiast.
 

yummy125

Member
Joined
2 Oct 2010
Messages
243
I would love to see 50 007 back to "Hercules", but why not have both nameplates on it, (Hercules 1 side & "Sir" the other). :D As for 50 035 in Loadhall colours why was it repainted as it never carried these colours in service, looks better on a Class 56, 60..? Was 50's ever in two-tone green back in the 60's / 70's aka 50 044..?
 

StripeyNick

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2012
Messages
151
Location
Cowbridge, S.Wales
I would love to see 50 007 back to "Hercules", but why not have both nameplates on it, (Hercules 1 side & "Sir" the other). :D As for 50 035 in Loadhall colours why was it repainted as it never carried these colours in service, looks better on a Class 56, 60..? Was 50's ever in two-tone green back in the 60's / 70's aka 50 044..?
I personally think 35 looks great in Loadhaul. It provides a bit of variety to the railways. As for 44, 50s never carried green (apart from 7.......but that's different).

I think it's nice to have a change around with liveries.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
....As for 50 035 in Loadhall colours why was it repainted as it never carried these colours in service, looks better on a Class 56, 60..?....
No idea, but they didn't even get it right.

....Was 50's ever in two-tone green back in the 60's / 70's aka 50 044..?
All fifty were introduced in BR blue, the first green 50 was 50007 in 1984.
 

ACE1888

Member
Joined
2 Apr 2011
Messages
823
Location
Penzance, Cornwall
Personal view? Leave it in GWR Green, as there are several '50's in BR Blue/Large Logo liveries, but it's the owners choice, simple as...
As a footnote, when 50007 was painted in Green, there was a rumour around (it was in 'Rail Enthusiast' Magazine) of 50016 'Barham' being painted in Maroon...now that would have been interesting:roll:
 

Tiny Tim

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2012
Messages
463
Location
Devizes, Wiltshire.
It's amazing how people get wound up about a coat of paint and a name/number. We should count ourselves lucky that locos survive, not nit-pick about the colour scheme. I've seen letters in railway magazines from readers vowing not to travel behind a loco simply because the livery is (in their opinion) wrong. How childish is that?
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
7,764
It's amazing how people get wound up about a coat of paint and a name/number. We should count ourselves lucky that locos survive, not nit-pick about the colour scheme. I've seen letters in railway magazines from readers vowing not to travel behind a loco simply because the livery is (in their opinion) wrong. How childish is that?
Couldn't agree more.
especially in the case of the 50s, must have one of the highest survival rates of any class.
 

deltic1989

Established Member
Joined
21 Sep 2010
Messages
1,483
Location
Nottingham
It's amazing how people get wound up about a coat of paint and a name/number. We should count ourselves lucky that locos survive, not nit-pick about the colour scheme. I've seen letters in railway magazines from readers vowing not to travel behind a loco simply because the livery is (in their opinion) wrong. How childish is that?
I agree with that whole statement. Personally I dont really give 2 hoots what the livery is on a loco as long as it looks right and 50007 looks right in the GWR green, so its not an original livery big deal if all the surviving 50's were in BR Blue then in my opinion it would be a little boring.
Its the owners choice really, if the owner wants thier loco in that livery then so be it they are the one that has spent hundreds of thousnds (maybe millions) buying/restoring/running the loco, leave them to it.

The exeption to my "don't give 2 hoots about the livery" philosophy is, D9016 in Porterbrook "Purple Ronnie" livery, but that did look awful.


especially in the case of the 50s, must have one of the highest survival rates of any class.
Class 37?? :)
 

4SRKT

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2009
Messages
4,409
I agree with that whole statement. Personally I dont really give 2 hoots what the livery is on a loco as long as it looks right and 50007 looks right in the GWR green, so its not an original livery big deal if all the surviving 50's were in BR Blue then in my opinion it would be a little boring.
Its the owners choice really, if the owner wants thier loco in that livery then so be it they are the one that has spent hundreds of thousnds (maybe millions) buying/restoring/running the loco, leave them to it.

The exeption to my "don't give 2 hoots about the livery" philosophy is, D9016 in Porterbrook "Purple Ronnie" livery, but that did look awful.




Class 37?? :)
I think what a lot of younger posters having grown up in a kaleidoscopic world drenched in colour will not realise the significance of is that not so very long ago ALL locos were blue (except 40106), ALL coaching stock was blue and grey, and ALL units were either blue or blue and grey. Unusual liveries were therefore much more to be remarked on then than now (even large logo seemed revolutionary, and as for ScotRail......). The whole notion of 'authenticity' is redundant in a world where franchises constantly change hands and the only growth industry is making vinyls and decals. It's no use judging and pronouncing on the past using the standards and attitudes of the present (in any field). Those of us who were there at the time will remember the hoo-hah over 50007 and it seems it still hasn't died.

As a proportion of the total there are more class 50 survivors than 37s.
 
Last edited:

deltic1989

Established Member
Joined
21 Sep 2010
Messages
1,483
Location
Nottingham
I think what a lot of younger posters having grown up in a kaleidoscopic world drenched in colour will not realise the significance of is that not so very long ago ALL locos were blue (except 40106), ALL coaching stock was blue and grey, and ALL units were either blue or blue and grey. Unusual liveries were therefore much more to be remarked on then than now (even large logo seemed revolutionary, and as for ScotRail......). The whole notion of 'authenticity' is redundant in a world where franchises constantly change hands and the only growth industry is making vinyls and decals. It's no use judging and pronouncing on the past using the standards and attitudes of the present (in any field). Those of us who were there at the time will remember the hoo-hah over 50007 and it seems it still hasn't died.

As a proportion of the total there are more class 50 survivors than 37s.
I see what you mean. I am just old enough to remember the end of BR (only just) but even then trains were liveried differently depending on the sector they were assigned to. No doubt I would hold an entirely different opinion if I was old enough to remember BR Blue on locos in service.

on the second bit, I misunderstood the initial comment and thught that it was numbers being referred to rather than the proportion of the fleet. my apologies on that.
 

4SRKT

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2009
Messages
4,409
No criticism was intended! My own opinion on 50007 is that it's up to the owner and that in fact keeping it green as a curiosity is probably the best thing. Its repainting was one of the big talking points of the Golden Age of diesel cranking (I have a copy of Rail Enthusiast from the time somewhere that has several pages of correspondence on what now seems a totally unremarkable subject), and the green livery is by this time an authentic commemoration of that time. I was firmly in the 'keep it large logo and called Hercules' camp back in '84 though!

It was indeed a bit of a change when things like InterCity, ScotRail and Railfreight grey came along after so many years of blue and grey. I personally loved the large logo livery, especially on locos like 50s and 56s. It didn't seem to work so well on shorter locos like 37s IMHO: too much yellow.
 
Last edited:

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
So at the end of '84 there were two green locos? and by the end of '85 there were six? yet nearly thirty years on people still only have hate for just one of them? It just doesn't make sense to me.
 

4SRKT

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2009
Messages
4,409
So at the end of '84 there were two green locos? and by the end of '85 there were six? yet nearly thirty years on people still only have hate for just one of them? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Why does it have to be about sense? 40122 was different as it was reinstated from the scrapline in green livery and was thus a celebrity. The 50007 thing was because of the destruction of both the coherence of all being named after warships and all being large logo (50013 had been repainted thus only shortly before). Nobody would have minded if an anonymous newly converted 47/4 had been painted GWR green and named Sir Edward Elgar. In fact I'm sure it would have been welcomed.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
So really it boils down to a loco that spelt the end for the Warships (locos) on the Great Western region (and was hated for it) which was named (for the first time after years of hard work on the WCML) after a warship (boat) to appease the enthusiasts, was further hated because it was re-painted green and renamed into a Great Western theme for the Great Western 150 celebrations? Have I got that right?
 

4SRKT

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2009
Messages
4,409
So really it boils down to a loco that spelt the end for the Warships (locos) on the Great Western region (and was hated for it) which was named (for the first time after years of hard work on the WCML) after a warship (boat) to appease the enthusiasts, was further hated because it was re-painted green and renamed into a Great Western theme for the Great Western 150 celebrations? Have I got that right?
More or less, but you appear to be rather annoyed about something that happened 30 years ago and that you seem not to have experienced yourself. Does it matter? I was merely trying to give some historical context (i.e. not judge by today's standards) to an event that many younger posters seem to have some interest in but can't understand.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
10,549
Location
Macclesfield
I haven't seen any major hate for 50017 (50117 RfD or 50017 LMS), 50035 (50135 Loadhaul) or 50044 (Two tone green), so I can only assume that, as it is still going strong after nearly 30 years, it is a name thing. The 50s only had names applied to appease the Warship followers who had a hissy fit over their withdrawl from service.
I thought there was quite a rumpus that followed the repaint of 50017 into faux LMS "Coronation Scot" livery? Personally, I thought it looked superb in that livery.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As for 50 035 in Loadhall colours why was it repainted as it never carried these colours in service, looks better on a Class 56, 60..?
Because Loadhaul livery looks good on anything ;) and it's fun to see locos in liveries that they would never have the opportunity to carry during their operational lives on the main line :) If it helps to support the upkeep and continued operation of a loco through generating donations towards a repaint and awareness of the loco on the preservation scene then I see no big problem with it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The exeption to my "don't give 2 hoots about the livery" philosophy is, D9016 in Porterbrook "Purple Ronnie" livery, but that did look awful.
At least D9016s' Poterbrook livery followed the lines of the original two-tone green livery applied to the Deltics sympathetically. I think that the loco would have looked much worse, and raised even greater opposition, if it had been treated with the same Porterbrook livery that they applied to two of their 47s in the late nineties. I didn't mind the Porterbrook livery applied to D9016: It added a bit of variety and interest, and I think that the far bigger crime against authenticity was the fitting of those UIC standard light clusters! Nonetheless, at least that restoration got the loco out on the main line.

With regards to 50007, I completely agree with Schnellzug. With that loco, the opportunity is available to showcase a historically significant and accurate livery that was unique to that one class member, whilst there are already several other class 50s that demonstrate the other livery treatments that the class carried during its' working life. As such, I feel that the loco is more significant in GWR green livery, although if those who support it would like to see it returned to BR blue then good for them.
 
Last edited:

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
7,764
At the end of the day, whoever puts in the money and the effort chooses the colour. Its still a 50 no matter what. Although NSE is my favourite as im sure 50fan91 will agree
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,837
More or less, but you appear to be rather annoyed about something that happened 30 years ago and that you seem not to have experienced yourself. Does it matter? I was merely trying to give some historical context (i.e. not judge by today's standards) to an event that many younger posters seem to have some interest in but can't understand.
I'm not annoyed about it (I'm not sure how I could have given that impression), I rather like 50007 in green, but I don't understand the point of those who want it given it's original name back and repainted into blue.

I thought there was quite a rumpus that followed the repaint of 50017 into faux LMS "Coronation Scot" livery? Personally, I thought it looked superb in that livery....
There were people who didn't like it certainly, but it is almost forgotten these days, my impression is that if 50007 was renamed as Hercules for the next 20 years people would still be saying how wrong it was for it to have been green for nearly thirty years.
 

4SRKT

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2009
Messages
4,409
I'm not annoyed about it (I'm not sure how I could have given that impression), I rather like 50007 in green, but I don't understand the point of those who want it given it's original name back and repainted into blue.
Fair enough I suppose. My point basically is that it (llike most personal preferences) isn't necessarily rational (especially 30 years on) and that therefore there's no need for you to understand it. I personally would prefer to see it in green as a reminder of what was a huge hoo-hah at the time and one of the 'highlights' of the crank world in the early '80s.
 

GearJammer

Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
897
Location
On the Southern
The class 60's had a pretty good name theme (mountains/people of importance) ..... i don't recall anyone getting upset when that was painted green and renamed.

Keep it Green... besides when 50050/D400 is complete whos going to want to see that with a large logo 50007 'Hercules'.... personally i would like to see that blue and green pairing again.... its been far to long!
 

4SRKT

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2009
Messages
4,409
The class 60's had a pretty good name theme (mountains/people of importance) ..... i don't recall anyone getting upset when that was painted green and renamed.
If you'd been following the thread you might have seen the explanation about historical context and why different liveries are completely unremarkable nowadays. Times have changed and it's pointless judging the past through the standards and attitudes of the present.
 

Pen Mill

Member
Joined
19 Oct 2010
Messages
337
Location
Yeovil Somerset
The loco needs new batteries at a cost of £5,000 , a genuine support case.

Requesting £3,000 + for a change of livery is frankly taking the ........ out of the preservation cause.

There are around 300 Diesel main line locos in preservation of which over 100 are not operational , many requiring substantial funds.

£3,000 for a slap of paint against this scenario .. really ? sheer madness.
 
Joined
28 Dec 2011
Messages
98
Location
Derby
The loco needs new batteries at a cost of £5,000 , a genuine support case.

Requesting £3,000 + for a change of livery is frankly taking the ........ out of the preservation cause.

There are around 300 Diesel main line locos in preservation of which over 100 are not operational , many requiring substantial funds.

£3,000 for a slap of paint against this scenario .. really ? sheer madness.
If thats the correct amount required for a repaint then id definately go along with your comment. I personally prefer to see a 50 in BR Blue but 'priorities' come first.

46010 is in the same predicament i believe? (battery wise) Oh i wish i could win the bloody lottery :lol:
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
£3,000 for a slap of paint against this scenario .. really ? sheer madness.
It probably needs the cabsides replacing because they rust out, then the whole lot needs to be prepared and THEN you can put the topcoats on.
If you dont prep it properly the paint will just flake off.

£3000 isnt much for a proper repaint.

Of course you can always needle gun all the old paint off back to bare metal and do a proper job, cant we James! ;)
 

GearJammer

Member
Joined
12 Nov 2009
Messages
897
Location
On the Southern
It probably needs the cabsides replacing because they rust out, then the whole lot needs to be prepared and THEN you can put the topcoats on.
If you dont prep it properly the paint will just flake off.

£3000 isnt much for a proper repaint.

Of course you can always needle gun all the old paint off back to bare metal and do a proper job, cant we James! ;)
James LOVES needle gunning, i bet hes on his way to the GCR needle gun in hand as we type :D
 

50Fan91

Member
Joined
7 Mar 2011
Messages
161
Of course you can always needle gun all the old paint off back to bare metal and do a proper job, cant we James! ;)
James LOVES needle gunning, i bet hes on his way to the GCR needle gun in hand as we type :D
Thanks for that, you two! So much for the anonymity of the web! ;)

Although I would like to see 50007 wearing its "Hercules" plates again, I can't help but agree with the majority of comments found in this thread regarding the pointlessness of the experiment. Mr GearJammer also makes another very good point -

Keep it Green... besides when 50050/D400 is complete whos going to want to see that with a large logo 50007 'Hercules'.... personally i would like to see that blue and green pairing again.... its been far to long!
The potential for a mainline return of these two locos in such well known celebrity liveries would be huge. We just need to try and persuade the team behind 50015 to find some yellow and grey paint next....

Of course, there is only one Real livery for class 50s..

.. NSE is my favourite as im sure 50fan91 will agree
:lol:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top