5BEL

eastwestdivide

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It just involves far too many changes and compromises for my liking...
I know what you mean, but one person's change and compromise is another's improvement, namely the ride (apparently the originals were pretty rough), the extra space with the revised seating, and importantly, compliance with current standards.

And on certain steam locos:
I suppose they're not, but they do at least look like they are!
Apart from the air brakes, bright headlights, fitment with modern safety systems, lack of steam heating on many of the coach rakes it pulls, and all the other things a steam expert would mention...
But yes, absolutely, the creation of Tornado was a stunning achievement, and I don't think anyone's downplaying the amount of work in restoring and maintaining FS and the others.
 
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I know what you mean, but one person's change and compromise is another's improvement, namely the ride (apparently the originals were pretty rough), the extra space with the revised seating, and importantly, compliance with current standards.
Admittedly these are tough questions to answer, and if you can't provide something that people want to travel on, and can cope with the modern railway, it won't run at all. It's probably better that this thing does run than doesn't, and I appreciate it's a miracle they've managed it, almost fifty years after the Belle was withdrawn. However, I just think it's a bit much, as the train will be in nowhere near original condition, or even the condition it was withdrawn in. I also think the revised product offering - premium dining - is recreation of a false "golden age" that never existed. I know the Belle was well known for offering food that's fondly remembered, but it wasn't anywhere near the sort of product that's going to be offered.

I just struggle to be all that fond of Pullman cars, if I'm honest, and there's actually no shortage of them running on the network.

I suppose a comparable unit is the Hastings DEMU, which again has seen some compromises - it's had to be fitted with modern safety systems, and operates with two full-width vehicles in the formation. It makes it look a bit wrong, but the interiors of the DEMU vehicles have been fantastically restored and recreate the experience of travelling on this train when it was in everyday use perfectly. I can't help feeling the Belle is being turned into something it never was, and I find that hard to stomach.
 

big all

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the simple answer
you want to dictate what happens to it you buy it :D
there is enough choice if you want origional
you need different to get the funds in
 

eastwestdivide

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...which on steam are battery powered and just drop on a lamp bracket, they're not a permanent fixture. Why not do this on the BB? Then everyone is happy.
Fair point, but there are two "buts":
1. If you see steam (or anything for that matter) on the main line, it always has the bright headlights = not authentic, whatever "authentic" means. The same would apply to the 5-BEL - we're way past the era of an approaching SR EMU illuminated by nothing more than an incandescent bulb or two behind the 2-character headcode.

2. On the 5-BEL, the fiddle factor/safety factor (especially in 3rd-rail land) of having to change it each time the train reverses - one of the selling points of the 5-BEL project is:
It is a feature of this train that it can reverse direction within moments; it will fit neatly in to almost any station.
(from http://brightonbelle.com/about)
 

big all

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Fair point, but there are two "buts":
1. If you see steam (or anything for that matter) on the main line, it always has the bright headlights = not authentic, whatever "authentic" means. The same would apply to the 5-BEL - we're way past the era of an approaching SR EMU illuminated by nothing more than an incandescent bulb or two behind the 2-character headcode.

2. On the 5-BEL, the fiddle factor/safety factor (especially in 3rd-rail land) of having to change it each time the train reverses - one of the selling points of the 5-BEL project is:

(from http://brightonbelle.com/about)
suspect the quick reverse is more to do with not having to run round or isolate de-isolate locos each end rather than flicking a light switch :D
 

Deepgreen

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Fair point, but there are two "buts":
1. If you see steam (or anything for that matter) on the main line, it always has the bright headlights = not authentic, whatever "authentic" means. The same would apply to the 5-BEL - we're way past the era of an approaching SR EMU illuminated by nothing more than an incandescent bulb or two behind the 2-character headcode.

2. On the 5-BEL, the fiddle factor/safety factor (especially in 3rd-rail land) of having to change it each time the train reverses - one of the selling points of the 5-BEL project is:

(from http://brightonbelle.com/about)
Oddly, not every steam working on the main line has the intense headlight - see this working, for example, from December 2018, where the central headlight has been covered by the '70' sign.
 

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Cowley

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Oddly, not every steam working on the main line has the intense headlight - see this working, for example, from December 2018, where the central headlight has been covered by the '70' sign.
Is that a mistake do you think Deepgreen? I don’t think I’ve seen that before.
 

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is there a faults and failures or regulations to cover failure or non availability off equipment ??
for example if main headlamp is not available and providing all other marker lights are working normally may run to end off journey or next available station at speed no greater than 45mph as an example ??
 

contrex

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Most of the Bournemouth line was electrified at 850v
I thought that old howler had been nailed long ago. The nominal voltage was (and is) 750v. The substations on the electrification west of Pirbright Junction had silicon rectifiers with a lower voltage drop than the earlier mercury-arc rectifiers, so the DC busbar voltage might rise to 850v or so, but the voltage would drop directly power was taken in the section. The voltage used for timing purposes is 675 volts.
 

simple simon

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A pastiche of heritage from 'ye olde worlde' creates a new heritage for the people of today.

Yes it would have been even better if it had been a more historically authentic 10 car train and the 2+2 seating retained.

But to get such investment in an electric train is an achievement in itself. I just wish that more historic electric trains had survived and could be restored, even if only in a condition suitable for use as static exhibits (pre LMS Mersey units, NER / LNER Tyneside units, pre BR Manchester Bury 1200v dc etc). I am thinking of what has been done with the Liverpool Overhead Railway carriage, at a minimum.
 
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Deepgreen

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Regarding the headlights - I can confirm that none of the many photos I have of 'Clan Line' show anything other than the route indicator lights used - it's never carried a high-intensity light as far as I have seen. Five shots from various trips attached.

8392254019_df169dde02_o1200.jpg 26790480019_2f9f4e7675_o1200.jpg 31467463117_e815cb3d22_o1200.jpg 43423156991_f6fa7352ef_o1200.jpg 48919670577_4fc990e5c7_o1200.jpg
 

Cowley

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reddragon

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Unlike the first class cars, the second class cars and in particular the motor coaches have not fared well over the years. One driving motor and many other Pullman cars have been lost over the years due to neglect or lack of usefulness.

Rebuilding 2 as usable main line motor cars gives them a future as would the 2 at Belmond. The 5th remaining coach could be a museum piece, not moving but restored to its original condition.

What other EMUs have survived without a purpose? Sad to loose the CIG but really it had no future beyond the eyes of a few fans without deep pockets!
 

Deepgreen

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I’m really surprised by that. Loved looking at the photos though
Thanks - glad you liked them. It's a puzzle - I know of no other steam loco which doesn't carry a HIH, or indeed any other main line traction. I don't want to risk raising it elsewhere in case this last bastion of marker lights is noticed and changed!
 

matt

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Thanks - glad you liked them. It's a puzzle - I know of no other steam loco which doesn't carry a HIH, or indeed any other main line traction. I don't want to risk raising it elsewhere in case this last bastion of marker lights is noticed and changed!
Are you sure they are not high density but disguised as a marker light? Vintage Trains do the same with their locos where the high density headlight is disguised as a traditional headlamp.
 

Cowley

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Are you sure they are not high density but disguised as a marker light? Vintage Trains do the same with their locos where the high density headlight is disguised as a traditional headlamp.
I’ve been wondering about that too, they’re pretty subtle if that’s what they’ve done.
In all of the photos @Deepgreen has posted it’s clear to see that the steam generator powered electric lights are much brighter than they were in BR service back in the 60s.
 

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Yes, they are high intensity lights fitted in the housings of the original electric lights on 35028. The spare portable lamp is in the support coach, just in case.... The A1 group have done the same with 60163 and no doubt will fit the P2 with the same equipment.
 

Cowley

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Yes, they are high intensity lights fitted in the housings of the original electric lights on 35028. The spare portable lamp is in the support coach, just in case.... The A1 group have done the same with 60163 and no doubt will fit the P2 with the same equipment.
@Romsey - Is that still the standard single high intensity headlight arrangement then?
 

Deepgreen

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Well, they may be high-intensity (not "density") light units fitted in old housings, but their output is very far from light-intensity! They are of marker-light brightness at very best. I see no point in using HI units if their actual perceived output is so very dim - they are just heating their housings for no reason! Don't get me wrong, I like their dim appearance, but why waste all that light in heat?
 

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Normally two lights are used. They certainly are not as bright as the halogen headlights on the desiro units, but are comparable to the DB C class 66's.
Whatever, they are better than the original electric lights or paraffin lights.
 

big all

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I don't know about bells originally I think 32 or 33 stock but SUBs designated as 36 stock had 4 bulbs in series x2 in the cab.

They were 40w bulbs with 2 circuits in a zig zag pattern in the headcode, with a further bulb in the cab to make the full circuit.

In other words you had 6x40w bulbs in a box fronted with opaque glass with 2 metal stencils giving no external illumination whatsoever; just enough light to show the headcode to those that needed to see what train was coming.

It wasn't until perhaps the mid '80s when giving the driver a bit off light to see what was ahead was thought important.

Indeed, before that, 95% off driving was fully by route knowledge with the driver knowing fully in the dark where he was with the odd yellow painted cutout to help.
 
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VEP3417

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will there come a point where heritage trains wont need any yellow warning panel at the front if they have brighter lights, meaning you could have more original liveries as i see a few modern trains have no yellow warning panel/cab fronts
 

43096

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It wasn't until perhaps the mid '80s when giving the driver a bit off light to see what was ahead was thought important.

Indeed, before that, 95% off driving was fully by route knowledge with the driver knowing fully in the dark where he was with the odd yellow painted cutout to help.
The main reason for fitting of headlights in the 1980s was to make trains more visible from the trackside, not illuminate where the driver was going (although that was a side benefit).
 

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