5x Class 153 conversion to bike and baggage vans for Scotrail

[Clansman]

It's one thing for them to be passed on the national rail network, but it's another thing to have drivers willing to drive them in the first place.

 

[irish_rail]

Too be honest I doubt scotrail men are more militant than gwr men so I assume there is just some kind of cab improvement going on let's not overblown this as if scotrail are refusing to drive them

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's one thing for them to be passed on the national rail network, but it's another thing to have drivers willing to drive them in the first place.

Generally speaking I do as my employer tells me to do, as they are paying me to do it. If that (as I'm an IT person) involves using a particular piece of hardware or software, I use it.

 

[delt1c]

Generally speaking I do as my employer tells me to do, as they are paying me to do it. If that (as I'm an IT person) involves using a particular piece of hardware or software, I use it.

Yes but at what point does an employers requests become unreasonable. Staff need employers for their salaries, employers need staff for their profits. lets not return to victorian times when staff were expendable, nor the 70's when unions became to powerful. However lets keep a happy medium where both parties listen to each other and work together.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes but at what point does an employers requests become unreasonable.

Certainly not at the point where staff are required to drive a train that is driven by other drivers throughout the UK on a regular basis.

 

[delt1c]

Certainly not at the point where staff are required to drive a train that is driven by other drivers throughout the UK on a regular basis.

You have quoted a small part of my post, point i was making is employers and employees, have t respect each other and listen to each other.

 

[marks87]

Presumably the only way drivers can refuse to drive 153s is with union (ASLEF) backing.

But if that were to happen, all 153s throughout the country would end up out of service because any objection would have to apply to all drivers, not just those working for ScotRail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably the only way drivers can refuse to drive 153s is with union (ASLEF) backing.

But if that were to happen, all 153s throughout the country would end up out of service because any objection would have to apply to all drivers, not just those working for ScotRail.

They will fairly soon anyway. Maybe that's the root of it?

 

[380101]

Anything's (im)possible when the ScotRail ASLEF awkward squad get involved.

Just looking out for the interests of the members! Nothing awkward about them!

I'm sure if you turned up at Control tomorrow and NR said "here's your new workspace" and it was a wee cramped, antiquated dookit with no desk space and a clapped out, collapsed seat you'd not be best pleased and would wish your union to do something about it. ScotRail took ASLEF reps to Brodies to show them the 153s, reps weren't impressed with the cabs and have asked for improvements to be made. Pretty simple really. What's wrong with wanting to improve working conditions and working environments for their members?

 

[alangla]

Where in Scotland have 153's run in service previously?

When Northern Spirit/ATN extended a Leeds-Settle-Carlisle service to Glasgow Central via the WCML, I saw a pair of 153s working it, but only on one occasion. It was normally 158s or, at a push, 156s from what I remember.

 

[ash39]

Just looking out for the interests of the members! Nothing awkward about them!

I'm sure if you turned up at Control tomorrow and NR said "here's your new workspace" and it was a wee cramped, antiquated dookit with no desk space and a clapped out, collapsed seat you'd not be best pleased and would wish your union to do something about it. ScotRail took ASLEF reps to Brodies to show them the 153s, reps weren't impressed with the cabs and have asked for improvements to be made. Pretty simple really. What's wrong with wanting to improve working conditions and working environments for their members?

How do you realistically improve a cab which is fundamentally too small, as it was never intended to be a cab? If it was a simple as making it a bit bigger, they would have done that when they were converted 20+ years ago.

Your analogy about the control room desk does not work.

 

[Sprinter153]

Presumably the only way drivers can refuse to drive 153s is with union (ASLEF) backing.

Or on the basis of the TOC’s ‘Refusal to Work on Safety Grounds’ policy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or on the basis of the TOC’s ‘Refusal to Work on Safety Grounds’ policy.

If 153s are declared unsafe on any TOC they are by extension unsafe on ALL TOCs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you realistically improve a cab which is fundamentally too small, as it was never intended to be a cab? If it was a simple as making it a bit bigger, they would have done that when they were converted 20+ years ago.

Your analogy about the control room desk does not work.

Have we established that it's actually the small cab that's the issue? I've definitely heard drivers saying they prefer it.

 

[Swimbar]

Have we established that it's actually the small cab that's the issue? I've definitely heard drivers saying they prefer it.

This series of posts show what is wrong with our industry and why railway workers are considered by many to be militant.
If a Leeds driver is required to and does drive a 153 then a Scotrail driver should do the same.

 

[380101]

This series of posts show what is wrong with our industry and why railway workers are considered by many to be militant.
If a Leeds driver is required to and does drive a 153 then a Scotrail driver should do the same.

Nowhere has anyone said that ScotRail driver's are not or are refusing to drive the 153s. All that the ASLEF reps have asked for is some improvements to be made to the small end cab. The railway unions are perceived to be militant by people who don't have the luxury of being in a unionised industry! Teachers have been on a nationwide strike more often than drivers in the last decade!

Absolutely nothing wrong with a union looking to improve working conditions for its members.

GWR drivers drive the class 800, so by your standards that should mean the LNER drivers should have just said "Aye, nae bother!" when in fact they didn't and their ASLEF reps negotiated them a substantial salary increase before they would agree to them driving them. So, just because a "Leeds driver drives a 153", doesn't mean a ScotRail driver should!

 

[chuff chuff]

Nowhere has anyone said that ScotRail driver's are not or are refusing to drive the 153s. All that the ASLEF reps have asked for is some improvements to be made to the small end cab. The railway unions are perceived to be militant by people who don't have the luxury of being in a unionised industry! Teachers have been on a nationwide strike more often than drivers in the last decade!

Absolutely nothing wrong with a union looking to improve working conditions for its members.

GWR drivers drive the class 800, so by your standards that should mean the LNER drivers should have just said "Aye, nae bother!" when in fact they didn't and their ASLEF reps negotiated them a substantial salary increase before they would agree to them driving them. So, just because a "Leeds driver drives a 153", doesn't mean a ScotRail driver should!

Yes a bit like the freight company drivers who it appeared not to see or if did not report the signal ghosting at night with the windscreen on the 385's, so if they were happy or didn't care scotrail drivers should just swallow it.

 

[marks87]

Nowhere has anyone said that ScotRail driver's are not or are refusing to drive the 153s. All that the ASLEF reps have asked for is some improvements to be made to the small end cab. The railway unions are perceived to be militant by people who don't have the luxury of being in a unionised industry! Teachers have been on a nationwide strike more often than drivers in the last decade!

Absolutely nothing wrong with a union looking to improve working conditions for its members.

GWR drivers drive the class 800, so by your standards that should mean the LNER drivers should have just said "Aye, nae bother!" when in fact they didn't and their ASLEF reps negotiated them a substantial salary increase before they would agree to them driving them. So, just because a "Leeds driver drives a 153", doesn't mean a ScotRail driver should!

That's not comparing like-for-like. Different drivers at different TOCs are paid differently despite similarities in their duties. It's like any job.

Here, we're talking about the physical working environment, namely one of the cabs of a class 153. If ASLEF are arguing that the working conditions in one of the cabs are unacceptable for ScotRail drivers, then they must also be unacceptable to all other drivers. Otherwise, it raises a fairly obvious question - why do ASLEF think both cabs are good enough for (e.g.) a Northern driver, but not a ScotRail one?

 

[chuff chuff]

That's not comparing like-for-like. Different drivers at different TOCs are paid differently despite similarities in their duties. It's like any job.

Here, we're talking about the physical working environment, namely one of the cabs of a class 153. If ASLEF are arguing that the working conditions in one of the cabs are unacceptable for ScotRail drivers, then they must also be unacceptable to all other drivers. Otherwise, it raises a fairly obvious question - why do ASLEF think both cabs are good enough for (e.g.) a Northern driver, but not a ScotRail one?

You'd have to ask the reps for northern,you also have to bare in mind it's been sometime since they entered service and things have moved on.It's much easier to persuade a company on improvements before a set comes into service as it tends to fall deaf ears once their in.

 

[380101]

That's not comparing like-for-like. Different drivers at different TOCs are paid differently despite similarities in their duties. It's like any job.

Here, we're talking about the physical working environment, namely one of the cabs of a class 153. If ASLEF are arguing that the working conditions in one of the cabs are unacceptable for ScotRail drivers, then they must also be unacceptable to all other drivers. Otherwise, it raises a fairly obvious question - why do ASLEF think both cabs are good enough for (e.g.) a Northern driver, but not a ScotRail one?

Again, ASLEF have NOT said they are unacceptable! Seems some on here don't understand how ASLEF as a union works. Its not a head office led union, its a locally led union where the members make the policy and every district and it's reps lead on issues that affect their members. So, in ScotRail the reps were shown the 153s by ScotRail management and on seeing them they asked for improvements to be made to the small end cabs. Pretty simple really! I'm sure if reps in other companies had the opportunity to ask for improvements to be made to their fleet whilst undergoing major overhaul, they would do so. All the ScotRail reps have asked for is improvements to be made as far as is possible whilst the seriously clapped out, corroded 153 units are undergoing major works. It's kinda the best time to do it. Currently one of the 153 units is sitting in the yard at Brodies in Kilmarnock with half the small cab back wall removed, so they are at least attempting to do something to improve it.

 

[irish_rail]

Nowhere has anyone said that ScotRail driver's are not or are refusing to drive the 153s. All that the ASLEF reps have asked for is some improvements to be made to the small end cab. The railway unions are perceived to be militant by people who don't have the luxury of being in a unionised industry! Teachers have been on a nationwide strike more often than drivers in the last decade!

Absolutely nothing wrong with a union looking to improve working conditions for its members.

GWR drivers drive the class 800, so by your standards that should mean the LNER drivers should have just said "Aye, nae bother!" when in fact they didn't and their ASLEF reps negotiated them a substantial salary increase before they would agree to them driving them. So, just because a "Leeds driver drives a 153", doesn't mean a ScotRail driver should!

Errrrr, GWR drivers got a very very nice pay rise to drive the new 800s at the unions insistence, probably rather better than anything LNER have got.....

 

[380101]

Errrrr, GWR drivers got a very very nice pay rise to drive the new 800s at the unions insistence, probably rather better than anything LNER have got.....

Fair enough, I'm only aware of the LNER one as GWR land is a bit far away for drivers in Scotland to be interested, whereas LNER is on our doorstep. But I'd say a £5k increase is pretty substantial for most drivers!

 

[Rick1984]

Could they not just blank the small cab end passenger doors and extend cab into the vestibule?

 

[hexagon789]

Could they not just blank the small cab end passenger doors and extend cab into the vestibule?

Don't you need doors both ends for evacuation purposes?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Don't you need doors both ends for evacuation purposes?

That'd be a problem for HST TGS vehicles, and 22x/180/390 driving cars... though those have crew doors that could be used in an emergency. I suppose you could keep the door on the secondmans side, with the gangway door also available for evacuation in an emergency?

 

[hexagon789]

That'd be a problem for HST TGS vehicles, and 22x/180/390 driving cars... though those have crew doors that could be used in an emergency. I suppose you could keep the door on the secondmans side, with the gangway door also available for evacuation in an emergency?

I was sure you had to have doors at both ends, but I guess the gangway could be used. Not sure how it works with Mk3 TGS or multiple unit driving cars.

 

[Killingworth]

You'd have to ask the reps for northern,you also have to bare in mind it's been sometime since they entered service and things have moved on.It's much easier to persuade a company on improvements before a set comes into service as it tends to fall deaf ears once their in.

153s have been around since 1991/2 and most recently with Northern, East Midlands, West Midlands, Greater Anglia and Transport for Wales.

If I were a Scotrail driver I'd have taken note of comments like those appearing here about 153 cabs and driver comfort. Scotrail are effectively paying for a full refurbishment of the passenger areas so it doesn't seem unreasonable to consider a little attention at the back and front. How much that is a showstopper is down to management, unions and particularly the accountants.

 

[chuff chuff]

153s have been around since 1991/2 and most recently with Northern, East Midlands, West Midlands, Greater Anglia and Transport for Wales.

If I were a Scotrail driver I'd have taken note of comments like those appearing here about 153 cabs and driver comfort. Scotrail are effectively paying for a full refurbishment of the passenger areas so it doesn't seem unreasonable to consider a little attention at the back and front. How much that is a showstopper is down to management, unions and particularly the accountants.

And with knowing what these 'improvements ' are that the scotrail reps we're all just havering ,what they have asked for my be entirely reasonable especially while a major rebuild is on going.

 

[43096]

I was sure you had to have doors at both ends, but I guess the gangway could be used. Not sure how it works with Mk3 TGS or multiple unit driving cars.

Mk3 TGS has emergency access from the saloon to the van area so meets the requirements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was sure you had to have doors at both ends, but I guess the gangway could be used. Not sure how it works with Mk3 TGS or multiple unit driving cars.

Mk3 buffets also only have passenger-openable doors at one end - aren't they normally locked using a carriage key which may not be to hand in an emergency if the buffet staff are incapacitated or it is closed? And FLIRTs only have one set of doors on each side anyway, though they have an evacuation window. Perhaps this could be fitted to the 153s and the doors at that end blanked off?