• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

5x Class 153 conversion to bike and baggage vans for Scotrail

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Maxfly

Member
Joined
9 Mar 2010
Messages
269
Location
Scotland
I know that most of the gauging locations for the 153 also applied to the 158, so there was little extra to do to clear for both.

Also, with fewer trains there would have been more available time, so I think that it's been completed ahead of the original schedule. The dry spring must have helped, but that's all over now!

from what I remember, the 153 was the more awkward unit to gauge clear compared to the 158 possibly due to the steps on their bogies!?!

Thanks LOM for further confirmation although be interested to hear from 158725 of their reference material as to why 158’s wouldn’t be cleared anytime soon?
Also as the last that I heard was it would be hay market 158’s on the WHL not Inverness based units, don’t know how that would work as would assume either would still be able to appear anyways but that knowledge would be for ScotRail fleet as it’s their units and diagrams

Of course just because something is cleared doesn’t mean they will just suddenly appear on the line in question :)
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
is there any online resource that would state what trains are cleared for what lines?

A little digging required, but the sectional appendices have it in them, towards the end of the documents

 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
This is presumably an issue across Europe, as vertical racks of some sort seem to be common practice (on a random search)?
Not ever so common. It is unusual or maybe not done at all in the Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark. It is widespread in France but so is hearing bikes crashing off the hooks as the train stops!

I think Greater Anglia's 3-bikes-per-side floor spaces are better but I hope that ScotRail have surveyed bikes on their line and know that sufficient people use lightweight bikes with no long back mudguard for it to be worthwhile.

CTC might have agreed with it years ago but its successor CUK have been arguing against hooks for years.
 
Joined
31 Jan 2020
Messages
345
Location
Inverness
Oh dear - stupid bike rack where you have to hang the bike by the front wheel. Why couldn't they have blocked off the windows on one side, installed a proper horizontal bike rack, put the racks for bags and (seemingly) ski equipment above the bike storage and then had the corridor going down the other side?
You'd think they would be able to get this right on a carriage fitted out specifically for this purpose, but no...
I imagine the majority of bikes will be lightweight mountain bikes or road bikes, which should hang from the hooks without much trouble. There's a bit of a misconception that hooks can damage wheel rims but assuming the bike can't swing around too much they're not a problem. Hooks aren't so good for heavy things like Dutch Bikes (20kg+ but unlikely to be on the West Highland Line) or touring bikes with loaded panniers, but they can probably be accommodated on a conventional rack elsewhere on the train.


Just no pleasing some people is there? They could of course just not have bothered with any extra accommodation for bikes at all, given that the bikes themselves make zero revenue.
Operators are obliged to provide bike capacity are they not?

Since we're being discouraged from using public transport, I imagine other trains trains will be needing a lot more bike capacity as people use bikes rather than busses to get to and from stations.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,539
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I imagine the majority of bikes will be lightweight mountain bikes or road bikes, which should hang from the hooks without much trouble. There's a bit of a misconception that hooks can damage wheel rims but assuming the bike can't swing around too much they're not a problem. Hooks aren't so good for heavy things like Dutch Bikes (20kg+ but unlikely to be on the West Highland Line) or touring bikes with loaded panniers, but they can probably be accommodated on a conventional rack elsewhere on the train.

You're probably asked to remove your panniers and store them near your seat, anyway, as that's unattended luggage otherwise.

Since we're being discouraged from using public transport, I imagine other trains trains will be needing a lot more bike capacity as people use bikes rather than busses to get to and from stations.

Most people using a bike to get to the station don't take it to their destination, the vast majority of commuter and other short distance train journeys are smaller place/suburb to city centre, and you don't really need it in the city centre because most of them (London aside) are walkable. In London you've got Bozza bikes (Sadiq cycles?), while some other commuters keep a basic, less desirable to thieves bike at their usual London terminus.
 

ScotRail158725

Established Member
Joined
27 Nov 2018
Messages
2,170
from what I remember, the 153 was the more awkward unit to gauge clear compared to the 158 possibly due to the steps on their bogies!?!

Thanks LOM for further confirmation although be interested to hear from 158725 of their reference material as to why 158’s wouldn’t be cleared anytime soon?
Also as the last that I heard was it would be hay market 158’s on the WHL not Inverness based units, don’t know how that would work as would assume either would still be able to appear anyways but that knowledge would be for ScotRail fleet as it’s their units and diagrams

Of course just because something is cleared doesn’t mean they will just suddenly appear on the line in question :)
726-741 moved last year from Haymarket to Corkerhill to be used on the WHL but that plan was scrapped
 

InOban

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2017
Messages
4,208
158s for the WHL was a franchise commitment. Abellio asked for a waiver but were turned down. But now we're on emergency funding, who knows.
 

haggishunter

Member
Joined
25 Aug 2016
Messages
349
Is there any reason why the 158s were mostly fitted with USB sockets and occasional 3 pin 230v sockets, but the 156s are all mains sockets? On the length of the WHL journeys proper power sockets are more useful - could they be changed over is there not enough power on the 158s?
 
Joined
31 Jan 2020
Messages
345
Location
Inverness
You're probably asked to remove your panniers and store them near your seat, anyway, as that's unattended luggage otherwise.

Most people using a bike to get to the station don't take it to their destination, the vast majority of commuter and other short distance train journeys are smaller place/suburb to city centre, and you don't really need it in the city centre because most of them (London aside) are walkable. In London you've got Bozza bikes (Sadiq cycles?), while some other commuters keep a basic, less desirable to thieves bike at their usual London terminus.
Removing cycle touring panniers is often easier said than done. By the end of one of my trips I had duct tape holding one on because the strap had broken. No way would I take that off on the train. I tend to sit within sight of my bike though anyway.
In Glasgow and Edinburgh a lot of people use busses, the subway or trams to get from the station to work, so I guess it might make sense to take a bike to avoid these secondary journeys? That's kinda my plan for when I have somewhere to commute to again.
 

Maxfly

Member
Joined
9 Mar 2010
Messages
269
Location
Scotland
726-741 moved last year from Haymarket to Corkerhill to be used on the WHL but that plan was scrapped

Is that the sets that had retb wiring carried out?
As InOban states above it was a franchise commitment that was requested to be changed but was turned down and of the course the flip side as also stated is the financial climate which could change things now but will have to wait and see.
 

squizzler

Established Member
Joined
4 Jan 2017
Messages
1,903
Location
Jersey, Channel Islands
I imagine the majority of bikes will be lightweight mountain bikes or road bikes, which should hang from the hooks without much trouble. There's a bit of a misconception that hooks can damage wheel rims but assuming the bike can't swing around too much they're not a problem. Hooks aren't so good for heavy things like Dutch Bikes (20kg+ but unlikely to be on the West Highland Line) or touring bikes with loaded panniers, but they can probably be accommodated on a conventional rack elsewhere on the train.
Hmm, that's an interesting point, and risks the internal arrangement being soon made obsolete by the rapid adoption of ebikes.
Looks smart kind of wish tfw done it on some of their services in Pembrokeshire and the heart of Wales line
It would be a shoe-in on the Heart of Wales line. I seem to recall that West Midlands have run 170s coupled to 153s between Hereford and Birmingham, and if so there is no reason why it should not work at a technical level with the replacement HoWL stock. I am sure the HoWL community rail partnership must be aware of Scotrail's innovation.
 

py_megapixel

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2018
Messages
6,642
Location
Northern England
I imagine the majority of bikes will be lightweight mountain bikes or road bikes, which should hang from the hooks without much trouble. There's a bit of a misconception that hooks can damage wheel rims but assuming the bike can't swing around too much they're not a problem. Hooks aren't so good for heavy things like Dutch Bikes (20kg+ but unlikely to be on the West Highland Line) or touring bikes with loaded panniers, but they can probably be accommodated on a conventional rack elsewhere on the train.
I'm more concerned about the strength required to lift bikes into the racks (and possibly adoption of ebikes as @squizzler says). There is this misconception that nobody could possibly want to travel with a bike who isn't particularly strong, but in reality bikes represent an efficient, enjoyable and easy means of travel, even for those who aren't.
 

scotraildriver

Established Member
Joined
15 Jun 2009
Messages
1,626
158s for the WHL was a franchise commitment. Abellio asked for a waiver but were turned down. But now we're on emergency funding, who knows.
Why anyone would want to travel the WHL in a boiling hot, noisy, claustrophobic 158 over a 156 is a mystery to me. Getting out of 158s into 156s has been a relief for me with the recent hot weather. And from a drivers viewpoint the braking on a 158 on the WHL will be a nightmare. The timetable will be in tatters as drivers creep around on wet days trying not to go into a slide.
 

py_megapixel

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2018
Messages
6,642
Location
Northern England
Why anyone would want to travel the WHL in a boiling hot, noisy, claustrophobic 158 over a 156 is a mystery to me. Getting out of 158s into 156s has been a relief for me with the recent hot weather.
I actually have the opposite opinion. I find the 156s to be far noisier and the seats on the 158s more comfortable. Also the 156s seem to ride rougher but that might just be me.

I'll give you boiling hot though. The 158s are supposed to have air conditioning, but the refrigerant that the system was designed to use is no longer allowed, so it's rather ineffective.
 

ScotTrains

Member
Joined
13 Nov 2014
Messages
376
Location
Scotland
Will the 153s get the awful, bright, flickering, migraine inducing PIS system as now fitted to the refurbished class 156s?
I cannot sit in a 156 facing it and have not risked my once often 3hr journey to Oban in one since they were installed.
 

py_megapixel

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2018
Messages
6,642
Location
Northern England
Will the 153s get the awful, bright, flickering, migraine inducing PIS system as now fitted to the refurbished class 156s?
I cannot sit in a 156 facing it and have not risked my once often 3hr journey to Oban in one since they were installed.
If they are to remain in service without a PRM TSI derogation then they will have to unfortunately.
The system you are referring to is called TrainFX and the displays are notoriously flickery and unreliable.
Of course it's possible they'll go with a better PIS solution but I find it very unlikely.

In a 150 there are a few positions you can sit where you can't see a PIS screen, I don't know if it's the same on a 156.
 

ScotTrains

Member
Joined
13 Nov 2014
Messages
376
Location
Scotland
If they are to remain in service without a PRM TSI derogation then they will have to unfortunately.
The system you are referring to is called TrainFX and the displays are notoriously flickery and unreliable.
Of course it's possible they'll go with a better PIS solution but I find it very unlikely.

In a 150 there are a few positions you can sit where you can't see a PIS screen, I don't know if it's the same on a 156.
I was on an East Midlands 158 back in March and noticed how much better their system was with easy on the eye words moving smoothly across the screen. I think it was an LCD rather than an LED screen. You could easily read a book/ look out window etc without being distressed by the screen. I guess Scotrail went for the cheap version!

The system used on the Scotrail 156 is totally unsuitable for anyone who suffers from epilepsy, migraines, etc. Half the seats on a Scotrail 156 don't face the screen but then only half of them wil be facing forward.
 

ScotRail158725

Established Member
Joined
27 Nov 2018
Messages
2,170
Why anyone would want to travel the WHL in a boiling hot, noisy, claustrophobic 158 over a 156 is a mystery to me. Getting out of 158s into 156s has been a relief for me with the recent hot weather. And from a drivers viewpoint the braking on a 158 on the WHL will be a nightmare. The timetable will be in tatters as drivers creep around on wet days trying not to go into a slide.
156s are way noisier that 158s. overall id take a 156 over a 158 any day or even better, a 170
 

haggishunter

Member
Joined
25 Aug 2016
Messages
349
Why anyone would want to travel the WHL in a boiling hot, noisy, claustrophobic 158 over a 156 is a mystery to me. Getting out of 158s into 156s has been a relief for me with the recent hot weather. And from a drivers viewpoint the braking on a 158 on the WHL will be a nightmare. The timetable will be in tatters as drivers creep around on wet days trying not to go into a slide.

I've to say from the passenger perspective I'm also rather of the opposite opinion. The Inverness 158s on the Far North Line provide a significantly better travelling experience than the 156s on the WHL, and I've never been as hot and uncomfortable on a train as some trips on seriously overcrowded 156s on the WHL last summer and that includes being on 158s where the Air Con has been AWOL.

Don't know how the 156s fair at the drivers end in Winter, but I've also never been on a colder train than a 156 on the WHL in wintry weather. Partly its people are terrible at not closing the manual end doors (and I've had my head bitten off by the Trolley person before for sliding them shut), but even when the ones that exist are closed because there's not full vestibules ice cold draughts blast through the 156s and any warmth at the start of the journey is soon expelled. It seems particularly bad when the toilet end is leading, an advantage of the 158s in that regard is the toilets and doors in are a sealed vestibule at both ends and of course twice the toilet provision. The WHL is the only rail journey I've had to queue for over 20minutes to use the toilet!

I know people like to moan about the seats, but I find they are an improvement on what went before and you can now actually work on a laptop using the airline tables, which was utterly impossible before and the 220v sockets is in the 156s favour too. To be honest, most of the shortcomings of the 156s could have been dealt with in the refurb, an extra non accessible toilet to square off the end of the accessible toilet and have an automatic vestibule door between the toilet and saloon would have made a huge difference.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,162
Why anyone would want to travel the WHL in a boiling hot, noisy, claustrophobic 158 over a 156 is a mystery to me. Getting out of 158s into 156s has been a relief for me with the recent hot weather. And from a drivers viewpoint the braking on a 158 on the WHL will be a nightmare. The timetable will be in tatters as drivers creep around on wet days trying not to go into a slide.
Why anyone would want travel on the WHL in a 156 fitted with ironing board seats over a 158 is a mystery to me.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,539
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Why anyone would want travel on the WHL in a 156 fitted with ironing board seats over a 158 is a mystery to me.

If they fitted a totally new aircon/air cooling system (or openers to all windows) to the 158 which was capable of maintaining a temperature of no more than 21 degrees regardless of what it was like outside I'd agree, particularly if it was one of the excellent Inverness units. As it is, I'd rather a 156 than a sauna.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,162
If they fitted a totally new aircon/air cooling system (or openers to all windows) to the 158 which was capable of maintaining a temperature of no more than 21 degrees regardless of what it was like outside I'd agree, particularly if it was one of the excellent Inverness units. As it is, I'd rather a 156 than a sauna.
It is Scotland, not the Sahara...
 

route101

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
10,594
The 156s seem to offer better views but more airy. The new seats on 156s are not comfortable for long journeys.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top