6Z54 Derails Leyton Midland Road 23/01

[Chris M]

And the resilience , or "give" of timber sleepers is noted , - anyone in the past could spot the tell take marks of minor derailments on plain line with wooden sleepers by observing the tell tale scoring. Those who had legitimate reasons to be on the track that is.

Surely anyone who was on the track could spot those marks, whether they were there legitimately or otherwise? </pedant>

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not speculating on the specifics but often it's a case of the lesser of two evils .
If the train stayed in line and didn't separate , the brake pipe remained continuous and the train continued albeit with additional drag which can be difficult to detect if loco us high power like a 66. Hence lots of track damage.

The other option is train doesn't stay in line , brake pipe separates and train stops sooner. However given the ' chimney pot ' nature of the location, the viaduct could have been badly damaged and people and property killed / damaged.

Given the location this could have been worse. No one hurt and some track damage albeit in a pretty difficult to repair location.

And to those asking why it won't be fixed tomorrow morning , it's because it's not a hornby train set .

Oooooh this armchair is comfy.......

Indeed Bexley 4/2/97 shows what happens when a train derails on a viaduct and doesnt stay on the track

 

[Chris M]

Indeed Bexley 4/2/97 shows what happens when a train derails on a viaduct and doesnt stay on the track

More tragically so does Potters Bar, where a pedestrian was killed by falling masonry.

 

[LAX54]

Initial reports seemed to suggest that it was a broken rail under the train that caused the derailment.

IF that is the case, far from Network Rail charging the FOC, it will be the FOC charging Network Rail.

There are 3 or 4 (or more) broken rails, all caused by the train, there are also tales that the train was well overweight as well

 

[Dr Hoo]

There are 3 or 4 (or more) broken rails, all caused by the train, there are also tales that the train was well overweight as well

Post #41 suggested that the wagons were empty. Can anyone clarify?

 

[GB]

Post #41 suggested that the wagons were empty. Can anyone clarify?

Consists shows zero empty wagons with a train weight of just over 2000 tonnes.

 

[Snow1964]

I am intrigued by photo 2 on Network Rail Media story

What are the red marks on rail, could a flange have been scraping because track gauge was wrong, if it was bit narrow could have caused wheel to ride up, or is it rail head burn from a train spinning wheels

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/resources/gob-track-damage-2-png

If the train has almost vertically cracked rails in a number of places, I suspect there will be some serious questions of axle weights (overloading)

 

[Dr Hoo]

Consists shows zero empty wagons with a train weight of just over 2000 tonnes.

Thanks for prompt, helpful and well-informed contribution.

 

[Romsey]

Consists shows zero empty wagons with a train weight of just over 2000 tonnes.

The reference in the train details to 2000t is the load for timing purposes.

It's a good few years since I was involved in timetable planning in Anglia and I don't remember a source of aggregate traffic in Barking.
When a train is terminated en route and the wagons attached to a different service or placed in cripple status, the TOPS record shows 0 LDD 0 MTS.

Just to confuse things further, the train could have conveyed a fully loaded wagons, if the train wasn't fully unloaded due to timing constraints or failure of equipment. The RT3973 HAW forms are applicable in both directions for any specified route unless specifically highlighted.

 

[Romsey]

I am intrigued by photo 2 on Network Rail Media story

What are the red marks on rail, could a flange have been scraping because track gauge was wrong, if it was bit narrow could have caused wheel to ride up, or is it rail head burn from a train spinning wheels

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/resources/gob-track-damage-2-png

If the train has almost vertically cracked rails in a number of places, I suspect there will be some serious questions of axle weights (overloading)

As the sockets for the pandrol clips are broken off I would suggest that the derailed wheel was inside the rail, bouncing along the baseplates and the forces would be attempting to twist the rail over. The red mark could be scuffing from the bogie frame or the wheel.

This assumes that the wheel was still complete. If a chunk had broken out of the wheel or there was a very large wheelflat we're even luckier that the whole train didn't tip over on the viaducts.

 

[GB]

The reference in the train details to 2000t is the load for timing purposes.

I referred to the actual consist, not the timing load. "22 LDS 0 MTYS 2026 TONNES" to be precise.

 

[Freightmaster]

It's a good few years since I was involved in timetable planning in Anglia and I don't remember a source of aggregate traffic in Barking.

For clarification, the train in question actually conveys spoil (destined for Calvert in Buckinghamshire),
rather than aggregate.



MARK

 

[Far north 37]

70810 and 816 currently working a train from whitemoor to leyton midland road.

 

[AndrewE]

It’s usually worse as it smashes concrete sleepers and rips the housing out.

I thought the big problem with concrete sleepers is that the steel reinforcement is pre-tensioned, i.e. wires are stretched through the moulds, the sleepers cast and then the wires are snipped to separate them. The strength comes from the fact that the concrete making up the bulk of the sleepers is in compression. The disadvantage is that if you chip off a big lump of the concrete then they are likely to self-destruct.

 

[Dave W]

70810 and 816 currently working a train from whitemoor to leyton midland road.

Looks like it was held at Seven Sisters for quite some time before moving onto the GOBLIN. Various amounts of delay put into following LO services.

 

[Far north 37]

Looks like it was held at Seven Sisters for quite some time before moving onto the GOBLIN. Various amounts of delay put into following LO services.

Yes arrived 45 late at midland road return working booked to leave at 15.06, another engineers train to come in from whitemoor at 21.22 headcode 6Z71 which should be a gbrf service i assume.

 

[GB]

6Z71 ex Whitemoor now cancelled. 6Z70 that arrived earlier will run as 6Z71 ex site on Monday.

 

[Far north 37]

6Z71 ex Whitemoor now cancelled. 6Z70 that arrived earlier will run as 6Z71 ex site on Monday.

I imagine there will be a steady stream of engineer trains into the worksite over the next couple weeks.

 

[chappers]

If I read it right, it was just one wheel ! but what IS needed, is / are: 6,000 tonnes of ballast, and 1,500 sleepers, plus some bridge timbers for a bridge or two !
Think this is part of what is req:
148 – Falcons for spoil
60 – Falcons for Base stone
120 – Falcons for Top stone
39 strings of rail

There are a lot of my former colleagues in the relaying Contractor in Anglia who will no doubt have a busy couple of weeks. I know the old supervisors used to enjoy a derailment as they are always a good money-maker. All rosters go out the window and it’s an overtime free-for-all. Also, they are jobs that are a thrill to plan as you can make demands that a Contractor normally could no. The name of the game now is to get things up and running as soon as physically possible.

Assuming the quotes figures are correct (no reason to believe they aren’t - although you could throw in some Coalfish and Sidetippers to the mix as the Anglia allocation of Falcons was only 60) that is 15 trains worth of material to bring in and out. The problem will be that the Anglia weekend allocation only ever used to be 13 locos. The likelihood is that any jobs planned over the next couple of weeks won’t provide enough trains. Works of course can be done during the weeks, but that brings the challenge of trying to weave VSTP engineering trains in and out amongst the already congested passenger service.

It will be a huge job to put right. Looking at the state of the rail that’s not going to panel out easily, so I expect the rail may need to be taken out separately and the sleepers bailed or forked out. And it’s always tricky working in and around that area with the various constraints

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Good to see they've got some resources available given Maryland works and do they also need to press on before the Wherry lines blockade

 

[GB]

Not a great week (if there’s such a thing) to have the derailment on. Big possession at Kings Cross taking up resources as well as the Maryland possession taking additional resources.

 

[Class 170101]

They fixed the track behind the oil train in south Wales far quicker than that. https://assets.publishing.service.g...data/file/748587/R172018_181016_Ferryside.pdf

More space I expect, that train has derailed on a viaduct where access will be very restricted - either from Barking or South Tottenham end.

As Chris M intimated - the cause of the problem hasn't yet been confirmed. Having got into the office this morning, the latest update is that the track damage is over a stretch of nearly 4 miles of track, and the line is under possession between Woodgrange Park Junction and South Tottenham until further notice.

What they are trying to do for the weekend is to try and get the Down T&H available for single line working to get the freight in and out of Thameside. Any trains that do run in and out of Thameside for the time being will be diesel hauled as the OLE has been isolated between South Tottenham and Barking.

I assume its still live between Barking and Forest Gate Jn, so the freight will be diverted this way instead but it will be fun unless Maryland is fixed this weekend, and I'm not sure its due to be completed as there are more Liverpool Street to Ingatestone all weekend blocks starting in a couple of weeks time.

 

[Romsey]

For clarification, the train in question actually conveys spoil (destined for Calvert in Buckinghamshire),
rather than aggregate.



MARK

Thanks for the clarification. A flow I hadn't heard of before. Is it a short term flow which will last just a few months?

 

[Chris M]

Is it perhaps connected with the Barking Riverside development?

 

[Snow1964]

Initial reports seemed to suggest that it was a broken rail under the train that caused the derailment.

IF that is the case, far from Network Rail charging the FOC, it will be the FOC charging Network Rail.

I have read reports that suggest some wagons were overloaded (overweight) with spoil (not aggregates)
Don't know the wagon type but I do remember about 20-30 years ago some spoil trains had rectangular slits cut in the side of wagons to stop this sort of thing happening as it was physically possible to put far more in than was permitted weight wise

Sounds like it was DB Cargo operated (a subsidiary of German Deutche Bahn)
The Overground service that is suspended is operated by Arriva (now also owned by DB)

If I have got that correct, presumably one subsidiary of DB will have to compensate Network Rail and another part of DB

 

[Far north 37]

I have read reports that suggest some wagons were overloaded (overweight) with spoil (not aggregates)
Don't know the wagon type but I do remember about 20-30 years ago some spoil trains had rectangular slits cut in the side of wagons to stop this sort of thing happening as it was physically possible to put far more in than was permitted weight wise

Sounds like it was DB Cargo operated (a subsidiary of German Deutche Bahn)
The Overground service that is suspended is operated by Arriva (now also owned by DB)

If I have got that correct, presumably one subsidiary of DB will have to compensate Network Rail and another part of DB

I would wait till the actual investigation is complete before speculating who is to blame for the derailment the claim that the wagons were overloaded is probably pure speculation at this time i imagine it was acton traincrew who were involved in the running of this train who have been working spoil trains for years without such incidents.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I have read reports that suggest some wagons were overloaded (overweight) with spoil (not aggregates)
Don't know the wagon type but I do remember about 20-30 years ago some spoil trains had rectangular slits cut in the side of wagons to stop this sort of thing happening as it was physically possible to put far more in than was permitted weight wise

Sounds like it was DB Cargo operated (a subsidiary of German Deutche Bahn)
The Overground service that is suspended is operated by Arriva (now also owned by DB)

If I have got that correct, presumably one subsidiary of DB will have to compensate Network Rail and another part of DB

Wagons used on track relaying works have a painted marker on the bogie springs to aid loading within wagon capacity due to the variability of material density on discreet sites. Conversely aggregate flows are repetitive so much easier to know visually whats max limit with operators doing it day in day out. That said someone still has to sign off the train as fit to travel but not necessarily a Certified Loads Examiner as its not a gauging issue.

RAIB havent shown there hand which usual indicates they've not seen anything in the initial reports that suggests anything new will be learnt

 

[edwin_m]

Don't know the wagon type but I do remember about 20-30 years ago some spoil trains had rectangular slits cut in the side of wagons to stop this sort of thing happening as it was physically possible to put far more in than was permitted weight wise

Four-wheel mineral wagons back in BR days that were built to be filled to the top with coal but when transferred to engineering duties could be only filled part way with recovered ballast etc because it is more dense. I think some big box wagons (MBA?) were cut down to lower ones in the early days of privatization.

If I have got that correct, presumably one subsidiary of DB will have to compensate Network Rail and another part of DB

The Overground is on a concession not a normal franchise, so Arriva is paid to operate the trains but the revenue goes to TfL. So Arriva is probably saving a bit of money by not operating the trains, and the loss of revenue is suffered by TfL. Not sure who pays for the replacement buses, if any. ​

RAIB havent shown there hand which usual indicates they've not seen anything in the initial reports that suggests anything new will be learnt

Usually nothing appears on the RAIB site until they've done a preliminary investigation and decided to do either a full report or a Safety Digest. That can take a couple of weeks. I tend to think they will do at least a Safety Digest, in view of the amount of damage and disruption and especially if the rumours of overloading turn out to be true.

 

[185143]

I passed through London this morning. Noticed announcements at Euston saying there was no service between South Tottenham and Barking "due to a faulty freight train".

Yet at Liverpool Street, the same was announced "due to an earlier derailment". Surely the same reason should be given everywhere? (Unless of course something significant was discovered between around 07:55 and 09:00...)

 

[reddragon]

Any information on the ELR mileages of the damage start to finish?