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8-car services to King's Lynn after completion of platform lengthening work

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arb

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There are lots of weekend closures on the line to King's Lynn at the moment due to work to extend the platforms to allow 8-car trains to be used all the way to King's Lynn.

When this work is completed, does anybody know what the plan is for actually running 8-car trains on this line?

I'm going to guess that Great Northern don't have a stash of unused trains lying around that will be used to magically extend every single service to 8-car from day 1?

So the next logical thought is that the peak-time services will be extended to 8-car. But many of the peak-time services are already run as two 4-car units within a few minutes of each other, joining/splitting at Cambridge. Would these actually be extended, or would they just run as one train instead of two and remove the join/split? If they do run as one train, this would (hopefully) be of benefit to overall journey time, and (hopefully) reduce the number of cancellations elsewhere due to needing fewer drivers on this line, but it wouldn't actually provide any extra capacity, which is the big selling point of all the engineering work and line closures.

Maybe all/most weekend services are going be extended to 8-car? I suggest this under the assumption that less stock is needed elsewhere compared to weekdays, so it can be re-purposed to go to King's Lynn?

Something else?
 
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philjo

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I think the intention was the off-peak services would run as 8 coaches through to Kings Lynn.
In the peaks a number of the services are 12 coaches between Kings Cross and Cambridge - so I assume some joining/splitting would still be required for these services at Cambridge.
We had been told a while ago that once the new Thameslink trains were introduced then the fast Cambridge services would be 12 coaches all day - but that not happened. Even some of the peak ones are still 8 coaches and have a large number of people sitting in the doorways.
 

MikeWM

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The 0812, 0844, 0910 and 0944 from KLN on weekdays certainly require strengthening to 8-cars. Later ones are probably not quite as necessary, but all services being 8-car would be welcome.

Equally, the early evening services north from CBG that are currently 4-cars - the 1636, 1738, 1837 and 1941 - certainly need strengthening to 8.


The other priority for strengthening should be Sunday services, towards London in the morning and away in the evening.
 

arb

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The 0812, 0844, 0910 and 0944 from KLN on weekdays certainly require strengthening to 8-cars. Later ones are probably not quite as necessary, but all services being 8-car would be welcome.

Yes, it's the trains before these that currently have two 4-car units following each other from King's Lynn to Cambridge.

Equally, the early evening services north from CBG that are currently 4-cars - the 1636, 1738, 1837 and 1941 - certainly need strengthening to 8.

The 1738 and 1837 already divide at CBG with the back half following on at 1744 and 1844. So you're not going to get any extra capacity here unless you can somehow get more cars from somewhere to join at CBG and then run two 8-car services in quick succession north of CBG.
 

bramling

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There are lots of weekend closures on the line to King's Lynn at the moment due to work to extend the platforms to allow 8-car trains to be used all the way to King's Lynn.

When this work is completed, does anybody know what the plan is for actually running 8-car trains on this line?

I'm going to guess that Great Northern don't have a stash of unused trains lying around that will be used to magically extend every single service to 8-car from day 1?

So the next logical thought is that the peak-time services will be extended to 8-car. But many of the peak-time services are already run as two 4-car units within a few minutes of each other, joining/splitting at Cambridge. Would these actually be extended, or would they just run as one train instead of two and remove the join/split? If they do run as one train, this would (hopefully) be of benefit to overall journey time, and (hopefully) reduce the number of cancellations elsewhere due to needing fewer drivers on this line, but it wouldn't actually provide any extra capacity, which is the big selling point of all the engineering work and line closures.

Maybe all/most weekend services are going be extended to 8-car? I suggest this under the assumption that less stock is needed elsewhere compared to weekdays, so it can be re-purposed to go to King's Lynn?

Something else?

I think the something else is that there's an element of slack in the 387 fleet as of now.

Doing some rough calculations, it's possible to run a fully 8-car half-hourly KX-Kings Lynn/Ely service with 16-18 units (depending on the amount of turnround time). Allowing for the 6 units which currently work Peterborough services, this adds up to 22-24. Allowing for two units on maintenance, this still allows 3-5 units for making up 12-cars. In reality there would be and already is some optimisation on top of this, for example shorter turnrounds in the peaks or diagramming 4-car trains against the peak flow. So I'd say the units are already there, give or take.

If they wanted to free up a few more 387s for the Cambridge route, there's always the option to steal some or all of the Peterborough six. GN already have two more 365s over what they were originally envisaging. With that fleet being confined to MF peaks only, it shouldn't be too much of an ask to push the availability up. Ways of doing this include substituting 2x387 for one of the current 2x365 workings and then replacing the 3x387 with 3x365 (frees up 1x387), or of course taking some extra 365s out of store.

Another option for expansion is simply to lease some extra 387s. The LTS units would be becoming available around the right time for a start.
 

swt_passenger

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There are lots of weekend closures on the line to King's Lynn at the moment due to work to extend the platforms to allow 8-car trains to be used all the way to King's Lynn.

When this work is completed, does anybody know what the plan is for actually running 8-car trains on this line?

I'm going to guess that Great Northern don't have a stash of unused trains lying around that will be used to magically extend every single service to 8-car from day 1?

So the next logical thought is that the peak-time services will be extended to 8-car. But many of the peak-time services are already run as two 4-car units within a few minutes of each other, joining/splitting at Cambridge. Would these actually be extended, or would they just run as one train instead of two and remove the join/split? If they do run as one train, this would (hopefully) be of benefit to overall journey time, and (hopefully) reduce the number of cancellations elsewhere due to needing fewer drivers on this line, but it wouldn't actually provide any extra capacity, which is the big selling point of all the engineering work and line closures.

Maybe all/most weekend services are going be extended to 8-car? I suggest this under the assumption that less stock is needed elsewhere compared to weekdays, so it can be re-purposed to go to King's Lynn?

Something else?
Network Rails explanation here:
VolkerFitzpatrick will start to establish the worksites and prepare the ground during summer 2019, commencing main works at the three sites in the autumn. The construction work is expected to last until summer 2020 with eight car peak services commencing from the December 2020 timetable change.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/anglia/kings-lynn-service-enhancement/
...only actually refers to peak trains.
 

MikeWM

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The 1738 and 1837 already divide at CBG with the back half following on at 1744 and 1844. So you're not going to get any extra capacity here unless you can somehow get more cars from somewhere to join at CBG and then run two 8-car services in quick succession north of CBG.

The back 8 only go to Ely though, which means the front 4 are still very full of people who go north of Ely, plus those who would rather get home a few minutes quicker, than travel in more comfort after CBG on the back 8. Would be better as 8 to KLN followed by 4 to Ely.

(Well, better for everyone else. *Personally* I'm happy with the 1844 as an 8-car terminating at Ely, with lots of space. I've been getting that a lot in recent months :) ).
 

Terry Tait

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Funny how they managed 8 + class 37 forty-five years ago to King's Lynn.
 

ChiefPlanner

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There were power supply limitations - remember this was a wafer thin electrification business case all those years ago. Used to be 5 x 4 cars drawing juice north of Ely. Maybe there is some modest increase of EC4T.
Funny how they managed 8 + class 37 forty-five years ago to King's Lynn.

Every 2 hours I think ?
 

ac6000cw

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Every 2 hours I think ?
Correct (as far as I remember). Hourly south of Cambridge, alternate trains extended to/from KL.

The current work (as I understand it) is to remove the restriction that some stations can't take 8-car trains, making the timetabling easier i.e. so every train *could* stop at any station. But the OHLE power supply and Ely North Junction limitations still apply...
 

ChiefPlanner

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Correct (as far as I remember). Hourly south of Cambridge, alternate trains extended to/from KL.

The current work (as I understand it) is to remove the restriction that some stations can't take 8-car trains, making the timetabling easier i.e. so every train *could* stop at any station. But the OHLE power supply and Ely North Junction limitations still apply...

I thought as much ! - (having been a bit involved in some of these issues before retirement) - was pleased the other day at CGE to see the work on the berthing sidings cracking on and the platform works towards Royston on the smaller stations.

Every now and then - well once a year generally - I do a run out to see how some of "my" past work streams are coming on in daily use. My particular favourite is the Norwich - Cambridge service.
 

30907

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There were power supply limitations - remember this was a wafer thin electrification business case all those years ago. Used to be 5 x 4 cars drawing juice north of Ely. Maybe there is some modest increase of EC4T.


Every 2 hours I think ?
And of course with slam doors and no central locking.
 

ac6000cw

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As I understand/remember it, since the original electrification the OHLE power supply north of Cambridge has been upgraded, but from what's been said on this forum it's limited enough that (at the moment) the GA 755's can't use the OHLE between Ely and Milton feeder station in addition to what's currently timetabled to use it.
 

swt_passenger

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As I understand/remember it, since the original electrification the OHLE power supply north of Cambridge has been upgraded, but from what's been said on this forum it's limited enough that (at the moment) the GA 755's can't use the OHLE between Ely and Milton feeder station in addition to what's currently timetabled to use it.
The last NR enhancement delivery plans for CP5 reported that OHLE power to Kings Lynn was upgraded by Nov 2018, sufficient to allow for 8 units in the area in the am peak, this was one single and two double up direction trains per peak hour, ie 5 units; and 3 units in the down direction.
 

ChiefPlanner

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The last NR enhancement delivery plans for CP5 reported that OHLE power to Kings Lynn was upgraded by Nov 2018, sufficient to allow for 8 units in the area in the am peak, this was one single and two double up direction trains per peak hour, ie 5 units; and 3 units in the down direction.

Really good to hear - thank you.
 

Class 170101

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No SDO to call at Watlington (or the villages between Hitchin and Cambridge as is occasionally required during disruption.

Agree about the SDO but I thought Watlington was being lengthened as well?

Weren't the 'village' stations lengthened already for Class 700 Reduced Length Unit Operation?
 

philjo

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Agree about the SDO but I thought Watlington was being lengthened as well?

Weren't the 'village' stations lengthened already for Class 700 Reduced Length Unit Operation?
Shepreth and Foxton northbound platforms were lengthened to avoid the trains blocking the level crossings when calling at the stations. Southbound side and both platforms at Meldreth are still only 4 coaches long.
 

arb

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So I think the summary of this thread is:
  • There are probably enough units to extend all KLN services to 8-car.
  • But when a train joins/divides at CBG with both halves travelling north of CBG, the best we can hope for is one 8-car plus one 4-car, due to the obvious limit of 12-car max south of CBG.
  • However initially the plan is only to extend peak services (which essentially means only every other train at the height of the peak, due to the above point).
I'm not clear about the point that made regarding power, and the fact the we're currently limited to 8 units around KLN at any one time. Is 8 units the number of units in the area in the morning peak currently, so further power upgrades are needed as well as platform lengthening? Or is power for 8 units over-specced for the current timetable and sufficient for extending the current timetable to 8-car?
 

Ianno87

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Agree about the SDO but I thought Watlington was being lengthened as well?

No, just Waterbeach and Littleport (really just because of the adjacent level crossings in both cases): https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/anglia/kings-lynn-service-enhancement/

Network Rail and its contractor VolkerFitzpatrick, will deliver a programme of works which will support the operation of eight car formations by delivering:

  • 2 platform extensions at Waterbeach station
  • 1 platform extension at Littleport station, a new accessible ramp and steps to platform 1, two disabled car parking spaces and a pick up/drop off facility and;
  • a new siding to stable the eight car trains overnight at King’s Lynn
 

evergreenadam

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So I think the summary of this thread is:
  • There are probably enough units to extend all KLN services to 8-car.
  • But when a train joins/divides at CBG with both halves travelling north of CBG, the best we can hope for is one 8-car plus one 4-car, due to the obvious limit of 12-car max south of CBG.
  • However initially the plan is only to extend peak services (which essentially means only every other train at the height of the peak, due to the above point).
I'm not clear about the point that made regarding power, and the fact the we're currently limited to 8 units around KLN at any one time. Is 8 units the number of units in the area in the morning peak currently, so further power upgrades are needed as well as platform lengthening? Or is power for 8 units over-specced for the current timetable and sufficient for extending the current timetable to 8-car?

Seems a shame, weekend services can get very busy too.
 

MikeWM

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Hopefully this is a good thread to resurrect to ask about progress on the platform extensions...

When I was last out and about in mid-March, Waterbeach looked pretty much done, Littleport close but not quite finished. Have they been completed yet? I note Ely to Cambridge was closed last Sunday, coincidence?

It seems like it might be a nice idea given where we are now to be ready to run 8 carriages here as soon as possible, rather than waiting until December per the original plan. Are there any plans here?
 

bspahh

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I took these photos of the extended platforms at Waterbeach yesterday evening. They are blocked off, but look to be complete.

IMG_20200628_214030.jpg

IMG_20200628_213640.jpg
 

whoosh

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Agree about the SDO but I thought Watlington was being lengthened as well?

Weren't the 'village' stations lengthened already for Class 700 Reduced Length Unit Operation?
Shepreth and Foxton northbound platforms were lengthened to avoid the trains blocking the level crossings when calling at the stations. Southbound side and both platforms at Meldreth are still only 4 coaches long.

Yes Shepreth and Foxton were lengthened to 8 cars in the down direction. However, if a 365 is used it must be 4 cars only as there is no platform DOO monitor or camera at the 8 car position.
 

Ianno87

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Yes Shepreth and Foxton were lengthened to 8 cars in the down direction. However, if a 365 is used it must be 4 cars only as there is no platform DOO monitor or camera at the 8 car position.

That, and there'd be no way of stopping the 8-car 365 on the way back!
 

Class 170101

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A bit pointless providing it if you can only stop in one direction...

Put the DOO kit at the 8 car board and four cars can stop there too even though it might be a bit of a walk from the station entrance. Unlike putting it at the four car board but 8 carriages can't call.
 
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