8 Northern routes to not return to full service in December

[peters]

It will almost certainly be a parliamentary service - and much less useful for those of us living in Ellesmere Port than the service to Warrington BW, Manchester and Leeds that it replaces. Ellesmere Port already has a frequent direct service to Liverpool.

See post 81 the 'new' service is on RTT now.

 

[sportzbar]

Why is Northern still so short of drivers? Have some moved to another TOC/freight company, or is there still a backlog of training on new stock? And is dependence on so much overtime a good thing?

It's all to do with being "covid secure". Yes there are training bubbles that have been created and some driver training has restarted. This is just one aspect. You also have route learning and traction training programmes which are still being worked on.

But the problem with more trainees coming back is that with the new Covid secure workplace and social distancing in messrooms there isn't enough space for these extra staff. Don't forget that number will increase with the other trainee staff (guards for example) that will also need messroom space.

Another part of the problem is securing enough tests for each training bubble. Each bubble (trainee drivers) consists of an instructor, trainee driver and manager. That's 3 test per week. Multiply that by the number of training bubbles and that soon goes into 400+ tests a week just for drivers alone.

Finding extra messroom facilities, acquiring tests, all takes time. I know it's frustrating believe me. I'm one of those trainee drivers still waiting......

 

[geoffk]

Local to me, I see that the Blackburn - Todmorden - Man Vic - Wigan service is back to hourly, having been every 3 hours since (when?). But Castleton, Mills Hill and Moston still have only one tph at off-peak times as the Rochdale - Vic - Blackburn has not been reinstated.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Local to me, I see that the Blackburn - Todmorden - Man Vic - Wigan service is back to hourly, having been every 3 hours since (when?). But Castleton, Mills Hill and Moston still have only one tph at off-peak times as the Rochdale - Vic - Blackburn has not been reinstated.

Isn't Rochdale to Blackburn via Manchester running but only in the peaks?* À la Manchester to Chester via Altrincham, Manchester to Buxton and Manchester Airport to Liverpool semi-fast among others, just so that Northern can say that they've reinstated it.

*said peaks currently do not exist!

 

[peters]

From RTT I would deduce that the stock off the morning Ellesmere Port train (arr ECS in Chester P6 at 0702 as 5D33) will remain in Chester P6 for 3 hours. It will then work the 1002 to Piccadilly (2H38 from P6). The stock off the 0808 Piccadilly to Chester (2D43, arr in Chester P5 0936) will run ECS to Newton Heath as 5J43, dep Chester P5 0942.

Looking at what happened this morning the 07:09 Manchester-Chester was worked by a pair of units, which then were sent back to Newton Heath, with the single unit that worked the earlier Ellesmere Port service working the 09:02 Chester-Manchester. It means all services are now 2 carriages except the below:
05:56 Chester-Manchester (which then goes on to Rose Hill Marple services)
07:09 Manchester-Chester
15:02 Chester-Manchester (by being paired up with the train that should work the 14:02 Chester-Manchester)
16:40 Manchester-Chester (by being paired up with the train that should work the 15:41)

While I understand Northern may think the 17:02 Chester-Manchester and 18:41 Manchester-Chester aren't the highest priority for being 4 carriage workings in the evening peak, I think it's a shame they've decided the send the doubled up set back to the depot after one morning peak services, rather than leave them in service and then do a switch if needed before the evening peak.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Looking at what happened this morning the 07:09 Manchester-Chester was worked by a pair of units, which then were sent back to Newton Heath, with the single unit that worked the earlier Ellesmere Port service working the 09:02 Chester-Manchester. It means all services are now 2 carriages except the below:
05:56 Chester-Manchester (which then goes on to Rose Hill Marple services)
07:09 Manchester-Chester
15:02 Chester-Manchester (by being paired up with the train that should work the 14:02 Chester-Manchester)
16:40 Manchester-Chester (by being paired up with the train that should work the 15:41)

While I understand Northern may think the 17:02 Chester-Manchester and 18:41 Manchester-Chester aren't the highest priority for being 4 carriage workings in the evening peak, I think it's a shame they've decided the send the doubled up set back to the depot after one morning peak services, rather than leave them in service and then do a switch if needed before the evening peak.

The 14:02 Chester to Manchester and corresponding 15:41 return are scheduled to return in January, as are a few others.

 

[warwickshire]

The 14:02 Chester to Manchester and corresponding 15:41 return are scheduled to return in January, as are a few others.

Hence a rethink on again maybe for Pacers to make a return until the complete complement of 769s are in place.

Also for the record today, short forms have also been apparent on Clitheroe to Rochdale services with only two cars instead of 3, with the booked 153 not being available either.

 

[peters]

Hence a rethink on again maybe for Pacers to make a return until the complete complement of 769s are in place.

The number of units isn't the main issue, it's not having enough drivers to drive everything even with 6% of services missing from the December 2020 altogether i.e. not being reinstated on 25th January.

I also thought the issue with Northern Pacers is they've run them all for the maximum number of miles they can handle without another expensive mechanical overhaul.

 

[scrapy]

Hence a rethink on again maybe for Pacers to make a return until the complete complement of 769s are in place.

Also for the record today, short forms have also been apparent on Clitheroe to Rochdale services with only two cars instead of 3, with the booked 153 not being available either.

The Stalybridge to Southport's seem to be 2 car today as well. Not sure if this is a permanent change, they've been 4 car for some time now.

 

[AMD]

Hence a rethink on again maybe for Pacers to make a return until the complete complement of 769s are in place.

It should be noted that there is a greater availability of the rest of the fleet - the last new train has been delivered and in use (excepting the one that's had a mishap) and the refurb programme of heavy work is winding down, so the balance of more or less a handful of pacers isn't making a difference now.
The 769s coming into service will support the fleet utilisation for stepping up the timetable next year, we are now up to 92% of full timetable so not having 8% frees up a good few trains from the plan when the full plan is +2600 services a day.

The Stalybridge to Southport's seem to be 2 car today as well. Not sure if this is a permanent change, they've been 4 car for some time now

Three of the four diagrams are still booked as pairs of 150s, only the diagram that starts at Southport at 0836 is two car, albeit a 156.
I've had a look at the diagram that starts at Wigan 0612 as it's running as a single 150, but is booked as 2x150, but can't find a reason.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The number of units isn't the main issue, it's not having enough drivers to drive everything even with 6% of services missing from the December 2020 altogether i.e. not being reinstated on 25th January.

I also thought the issue with Northern Pacers is they've run them all for the maximum number of miles they can handle without another expensive mechanical overhaul.

A driver or lack thereof doesn't affect the formation, does it? He or she is only in the front cab.

 

[peters]

A driver or lack thereof doesn't affect the formation, does it? He or she is only in the front cab.

So explain why the unit off the Ellesmere Port shuttle sits at Chester doing nothing for two hours between 07:00 and 09:00, while two units off the 07:09 Manchester to Chester run empty back to Newton Heath? That unit sat at Chester doing nothing could run the first missing Chester-Stockport and the Stockport-Chester return working, while the full Manchester-Chester could go back to it's 07:41 slot without Northern finding an additional train or reducing capacity on another service. So unless the timetable planners have done something really stupid that unit is stuck at Chester doing nothing for the whole morning peak time due to issues with the number of drivers and driver breaks.

I've never seen Northern do an empty movement with more than 8 carriages so if 8 is the limit then they also may need more drivers to shunt units between Manchester Piccadilly and the depot if they start putting Pacers on the back of them again.

 

[Geeves]

100% there is no way any Pacers will be coming back this time. Two cars on most services is enough right now the demand is very low.

 

[peters]

100% there is no way any Pacers will be coming back this time. Two cars on most services is enough right now the demand is very low.

The problem with the 150s is the tightly packed seating, meaning if a person travelling alone takes a seat on one of the 3 seaters then ideally 8 seats around them should remain out-of-use.

One of the arguments regarding why plane travel is safe is that everyone's facing the same way, the other is the level of filtering of the air being comparable to hospitals. Trains don't have those advantages.

Also in areas where non-essential travel is permitted, like Cheshire and Cumbria, people will be doing Christmas shopping trips still and may try to choose what they think will be quiet weekday services to avoid the crowds. Some people doing Christmas shopping may not be regular train users so they may be shocked when what they think will be a quiet afternoon service is rammed with school children. Then once the schools break up no-one knows what'll happen with regards to train loadings, other than people will be travelling for various different reasons.

 

[warwickshire]

The problem with the 150s is the tightly packed seating, meaning if a person travelling alone takes a seat on one of the 3 seaters then ideally 8 seats around them should remain out-of-use.

One of the arguments regarding why plane travel is safe is that everyone's facing the same way, the other is the level of filtering of the air being comparable to hospitals. Trains don't have those advantages.

Also in areas where non-residential travel is permitted, like Cheshire and Cumbria, people will be doing Christmas shopping trips still and may try to choose what they think will be quiet weekday services to avoid the crowds.

Agree. If Manchester gets and stays tier two, then services will get busier.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Agree. If Manchester gets and stays tier two, then services will get busier.

Voila. I live in Stockport and can tell you, down in Leamington, although you may have been to Manchester before, that it's a very social city whose inhabitants do not take lightly to being cooped up indoors the whole time despite the frequent drizzle! peters knows more about the Altrincham line than me as he lives over the boundary in Cheshire, although it's only a very short drive for me, but it will only get away with 2-car trains and social distancing on the days between Christmas and New Year.

 

[peters]

Agree. If Manchester gets and stays tier two, then services will get busier.

At present a number of the services to and from Manchester have a large town or city in level 2 on the same line e.g. Chester, Warrington and Liverpool, so some of the people who may normally travel to Manchester for Christmas shopping may just go in the other direction instead. I quite often go to Manchester for Christmas shopping but the year when there were all the RMT strikes I went to Warrington instead and found all the things I needed there.

Voila. I live in Stockport and can tell you, down in Leamington, although you may have been to Manchester before, that it's a very social city whose inhabitants do not take lightly to being cooped up indoors the whole time despite the frequent drizzle! peters knows more about the Altrincham line than me as he lives over the boundary in Cheshire, although it's only a very short drive for me, but it will only get away with 2-car trains and social distancing on the days between Christmas and New Year.

I looked at the official ONS map the other day and noticed there isn't one area with very high COVID infection rates on the Altrincham to Manchester Metrolink line. Altrincham and Sale are probably low enough to be level 1 if they were considered independently.

One of my relatives caught the first off-peak Chester to Manchester service on a day between Boxing Day and New Year the year before last and he said the train was so full it left people behind at Knutsford. Although, the peak time services can have very low loadings on those days.

 

[warwickshire]

Voila. I live in Stockport and can tell you, down in Leamington, although you may have been to Manchester before, that it's a very social city whose inhabitants do not take lightly to being cooped up indoors the whole time despite the frequent drizzle! peters knows more about the Altrincham line than me as he lives over the boundary in Cheshire, although it's only a very short drive for me, but it will only get away with 2-car trains and social distancing on the days between Christmas and New Year.

Yes until very recently especially the Cheshire lines, before lockdown and even the four car was busy in the middle of thed ay, from Northwich to Altrincham in particular to connect with the tram.

It was also busy with shoppers for Chester and day out in Delamere Forest as well.

I used to live up north in Urmston so know it very well.

Also the Kirkby line gets busy as well and don't know what is different from the old timetable to this one. I.e. two services are still only a two car.

For the record Sheffield side for social distancing today no class 153s are on booked trains. Makes you wonder if northern same story will remove them asap for no known reason.

 

[Bow Fell]

So explain why the unit off the Ellesmere Port shuttle sits at Chester doing nothing for two hours between 07:00 and 09:00, while two units off the 07:09 Manchester to Chester run empty back to Newton Heath? That unit sat at Chester doing nothing could run the first missing Chester-Stockport and the Stockport-Chester return working, while the full Manchester-Chester could go back to it's 07:41 slot without Northern finding an additional train or reducing capacity on another service. So unless the timetable planners have done something really stupid that unit is stuck at Chester doing nothing for the whole morning peak time due to issues with the number of drivers and driver breaks.

A little thing called maintenance.

One of the units off the 0709 is actually booked to stay out in service and works the 0902 service.

The unit of the 0808 from Picc couples to the other unit off the 0709 and they go to Newton Heath, for fuel or exam.

And also it’s about mileage. So while an extra run in between might seem like nothing it’s extra miles.

One of the things the planners look at in line with the maintenance/engineering department is the amount of exams getting done and have to base the mileage on that. It’s no good running the units in the ground on 500+ mile diagrams each day if they amount of exams they do doesn’t match.

So when you’re doing a start of day plan at Buxton where these units come from, I’m looking at putting the units with the worst miles or defects on these diagrams to get them to NH.

 

[peters]

A little thing called maintenance.

One of the units off the 0709 is actually booked to stay out in service and works the 0902 service.

The unit of the 0808 from Picc couples to the other unit off the 0709 and they go to Newton Heath, for fuel or exam.

And also it’s about mileage. So while an extra run in between might seem like nothing it’s extra miles.

One of the things the planners look at in line with the maintenance/engineering department is the amount of exams getting done and have to base the mileage on that. It’s no good running the units in the ground on 500+ mile diagrams each day if they amount of exams they do doesn’t match.

So when you’re doing a start of day plan at Buxton where these units come from, I’m looking at putting the units with the worst miles or defects on these diagrams to get them to NH.

I hadn't noticed there was a change to which two units are coupled together but it still looks like both the units which go to Newton Heath have worked one Buxton-Manchester and one Manchester-Chester service before going to the depot.

Yesterday I notice the 07:09 Manchester-Chester was worked by 150220+150149, with the following service being worked by 150123, then 150123+150220 go to the depot.
Today I notice the 07:09 Manchester-Chester was worked by 150149+150220, with the following service being worked by 150132, then 150132+150149 go to the depot.

I'm not looking through all the workings but if 150220 spent the night at Buxton, presumably that means it returned to service for the evening peak yesterday.

What I was really getting at though is the unit off the Ellesmere Port service doing nothing from 07:00-09:00. Northern weren't cancelling services pre-COVID due to unit shortages and now they have a unit sat at Chester out-of-service for the morning peak and two Chester to Stockport services not operating. I would suggest that's down to driver shortages, rather than unit shortages or limitations on mileage between servicing/refueling.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I hadn't noticed there was a change to which two units are coupled together but it still looks like both the units which go to Newton Heath have worked one Buxton-Manchester and one Manchester-Chester service before going to the depot.

Yesterday I notice the 07:09 Manchester-Chester was worked by 150220+150149, with the following service being worked by 150123, then 150123+150220 go to the depot.
Today I notice the 07:09 Manchester-Chester was worked by 150149+150220, with the following service being worked by 150132, then 150132+150149 go to the depot.

I'm not looking through all the workings but if 150220 spent the night at Buxton, presumably that means it returned to service for the evening peak yesterday.

What I was really getting at though is the unit off the Ellesmere Port service doing nothing from 07:00-09:00. Northern weren't cancelling services pre-COVID due to unit shortages and now they have a unit sat at Chester out-of-service for the morning peak and two Chester to Stockport services not operating. I would suggest that's down to driver shortages, rather than unit shortages or limitations on mileage between servicing/refueling.

Those missing services being useful in peaks and school runs.

 

[peters]

The 13:02 Chester to Manchester today (Thursday) had more passengers than seats and I think that's a service that would have 4 carriages if Northern decided to send 2 back to the depot to the morning peak instead of 4.

******************New post Saturday at 11:38******************

Less than 25% of Mid-Cheshire services showing as running with 4 carriages on RTT today (Saturday.) This time last year it would have been 75-100% of services operating with 4 carriages.

 

[AMD]

Less than 25% of Mid-Cheshire services showing as running with 4 carriages on RTT today (Saturday.) This time last year it would have been 75-100% of services operating with 4 carriages

Thing is this isn't last year.
I've just worked 2x150s into Manchester, last year (as it's last Saturday before Christmas) I would have probably have brought c.200 to 300 people in on that train. Today just 30.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Manchester to Chester via Altrincham is very nearly back to full service. I think it's just the 15:41 from Manchester that doesn't run now, and even that is scheduled for reinstatement in the New Year

Of course it should be 2tph Mondays to Saturdays by now but that's another story!

 

[markymark2000]

Manchester to Chester via Altrincham is very nearly back to full service. I think it's just the 15:41 from Manchester that doesn't run now, and even that is scheduled for reinstatement in the New Year

Of course it should be 2tph Mondays to Saturdays by now but that's another story!

There are a few peak extra trips which are missing. I'm sure there were 2 Stockport starters in the morning (none showing) and 2 in the evening (only 1 shows). I know for a fact as well there were some from Chester which terminated at Stockport in the peaks due to paths into Piccadilly. These aren't showing either.
Main off peak service is normal but the peak service isn't and that's a shame as it's the high school kids who are suffering most as it's those trips which are not running.

 

[peters]

Manchester to Chester via Altrincham is very nearly back to full service. I think it's just the 15:41 from Manchester that doesn't run now, and even that is scheduled for reinstatement in the New Year

There's a lot more services missing as discussed previously.

The services which were running in March 2020 which are still not reinstated are:
06:21 Chester to Stockport SX
07:15 Chester to Stockport SX
07:41 Manchester to Chester
12:41 Manchester to Chester
14:02 Chester to Manchester
15:41 Manchester to Chester
18:01 Chester to Manchester
18:18 Stockport to Chester SX
19:41 Manchester to Chester

From 25th January the list will be reduced to the following:
06:21 Chester to Stockport SX
07:15 Chester to Stockport SX
07:41 Manchester to Chester
18:18 Stockport to Chester SX

Thing is this isn't last year.
I've just worked 2x150s into Manchester, last year (as it's last Saturday before Christmas) I would have probably have brought c.200 to 300 people in on that train. Today just 30.

Of course the flip side is, normally 120 people on a 2 car train isn't an issue but this year 120 passengers should be enough to warrant 4 carriages, subject to availability of trains.

It looks like Northern are focusing using 4 car sets on services almost completely within a tier 3 area like Rose Hill Marple to Manchester and Buxton to Manchester! Do they not realise Warrington, Chester and Liverpool are in tier 2 so if people follow government guidelines they'll get some of the Christmas shoppers who normally go to Manchester, while people on the Buxton and Rose Hill Marple lines should be avoiding any travel?

 

[geoffk]

Crossing the Pennines for a moment, anyone know what's happening with Huddersfield - Wakefield/Castleford? It's disappeared altogether apart from a couple of peak workings. A difficult journey to make now unless you can connect with GC at Mirfield, otherwise via Leeds.

 

[Jamesrob637]

There's a lot more services missing as discussed previously.

The services which were running in March 2020 which are still not reinstated are:
06:21 Chester to Stockport SX
07:15 Chester to Stockport SX
07:41 Manchester to Chester
12:41 Manchester to Chester
14:02 Chester to Manchester
15:41 Manchester to Chester
18:01 Chester to Manchester
18:18 Stockport to Chester SX
19:41 Manchester to Chester

From 25th January the list will be reduced to the following:
06:21 Chester to Stockport SX
07:15 Chester to Stockport SX
07:41 Manchester to Chester
18:18 Stockport to Chester SX



Of course the flip side is, normally 120 people on a 2 car train isn't an issue but this year 120 passengers should be enough to warrant 4 carriages, subject to availability of trains.

It looks like Northern are focusing using 4 car sets on services almost completely within a tier 3 area like Rose Hill Marple to Manchester and Buxton to Manchester! Do they not realise Warrington, Chester and Liverpool are in tier 2 so if people follow government guidelines they'll get some of the Christmas shoppers who normally go to Manchester, while people on the Buxton and Rose Hill Marple lines should be avoiding any travel?

12:41 Manchester to Chester ran yesterday and has run again today. But the Stockport ones are still missing indeed.

 

[peters]

12:41 Manchester to Chester ran yesterday and has run again today. But the Stockport ones are still missing indeed.

I was wrong about the 12:41, it's down to run and has been running since the timetable change date. I was forgetting on weekdays that train remains at Chester until the 13:41 arrives and then is attached to the train off that service, resulting in the 15:02 to Manchester and 16:41 from Manchester operate as 4 carriages.

The others mentioned are still not running meaning 8 services are currently not running on weekdays and 5 on Saturdays. That must mean for weekdays just over 80% of services are operating, up from the previous around 45% but still well short of 100%.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I was wrong about the 12:41, it's down to run and has been running since the timetable change date. I was forgetting on weekdays that train remains at Chester until the 13:41 arrives and then is attached to the train off that service, resulting in the 15:02 to Manchester and 16:41 from Manchester operate as 4 carriages.

The others mentioned are still not running meaning 8 services are currently not running on weekdays and 5 on Saturdays. That must mean for weekdays just over 80% of services are operating, up from the previous around 45% but still well short of 100%.

And just over 90% from the 25th of January if your chart is correct which I don't doubt it is.