8 Northern routes to not return to full service in December

[northernchris]

Crossing the Pennines for a moment, anyone know what's happening with Huddersfield - Wakefield/Castleford? It's disappeared altogether apart from a couple of peak workings. A difficult journey to make now unless you can connect with GC at Mirfield, otherwise via Leeds.

Still just 1 AM peak and 2 PM peak return services. A shame as it is a useful link, even a 2 hourly all day service would be good

 

[johntea]

Crossing the Pennines for a moment, anyone know what's happening with Huddersfield - Wakefield/Castleford? It's disappeared altogether apart from a couple of peak workings. A difficult journey to make now unless you can connect with GC at Mirfield, otherwise via Leeds.

Another service that has vanished without much of a trace is the new xx:15 Leeds - Harrogate express services

 

[peters]

Another service that has vanished without much of a trace is the new xx:15 Leeds - Harrogate express services

TfN have said that some of the May 2018 changes will be permanently reversed due to some lines getting an over provision of services which takes up valuable paths around the big cities. I think they were mainly referring to services through Castlefield, Manchester when they said that but it's possible Leeds will be affected as well.

 

[northernchris]

TfN have said that some of the May 2018 changes will be permanently reversed due to some lines getting an over provision of services which takes up valuable paths around the big cities. I think they were mainly referring to services through Castlefield, Manchester when they said that but it's possible Leeds will be affected as well.

That's interesting, as Leeds had some horrific congestion issues especially from Armley in to the station. It was quite common to spend 10-15 minutes in a queue so removing the Harrogate fasts would be an obvious choice

 

[geoffk]

That's interesting, as Leeds had some horrific congestion issues especially from Armley in to the station. It was quite common to spend 10-15 minutes in a queue so removing the Harrogate fasts would be an obvious choice

Isn't this what Platform 0 is intended for though (if the delay is caused by trains waiting for a platform)?

 

[northernchris]

Isn't this what Platform 0 is intended for though (if the delay is caused by trains waiting for a platform)?

I think it should improve things, although think its more about getting 6 car 331s on the Airedale /Wharfedale lines. From what I remember there was only 1 set of points controlling access to the lower platforms, and with trains arriving and departing roughly every 3 minutes at the peaks there was no margin for error, hence the holdups

 

[37424]

I notice the Leeds-Lincoln service is still missing between Leeds and Sheffield, and that was a pre 2018 timetable service aside the fact it ran as a separate service between Leeds and Sheffield and wasn't combined with the Lincoln service. The Sheffield-Gainsborough Central is now also only running on a very limited basis instead of hourly.

Of course the original plan was to move the Nottingham service to the Moorthorpe route and extend it to Bradford but presumably that's dead in the water now.

 

[YorksLad12]

I notice the Leeds-Lincoln service is still missing between Leeds and Sheffield, and that was a pre 2018 timetable service aside the fact it ran as a separate service between Leeds and Sheffield and wasn't combined with the Lincoln service. The Sheffield-Gainsborough Central is now also only running on a very limited basis instead of hourly.

Of course the original plan was to move the Nottingham service to the Moorthorpe route and extend it to Bradford but presumably that's dead in the water now.

Dead for other reasons that Covid. I thought the fast service to Lincoln (from Sheffield) had been dropped, but the slower one was still running? There's only Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham running of the two semi-fast services.

 

[37424]

Dead for other reasons that Covid. I thought the fast service to Lincoln (from Sheffield) had been dropped, but the slower one was still running? There's only Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham running of the two semi-fast services.

The Sheffield-Lincoln is running as stopper, the hourly Sheffield-Gainsborough Central was meant to allow the Lincoln service to be speeded up but as there only a few of those running in the morning and evening then the Lincoln service has to run as a stopper.

 

[Jamesrob637]

So which Northern routes have not returned at all in the latest timetable change? Many are still peak-only such as the second Buxton, and the fast Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[peters]

So which Northern routes have not returned at all in the latest timetable change? Many are still peak-only such as the second Buxton, and the fast Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street.

Are you actually looking for a full list of routes which have returned to their pre-COVID timetables? Your question suggests that you only want to know which routes returned to a full service at the December 2020 timetable change, some (particularly non-North West ones) were already at a full timetable before the timetable change date.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Are you actually looking for a full list of routes which have returned to their pre-COVID timetables? Your question suggests that you only want to know which routes returned to a full service at the December 2020 timetable change, some (particularly non-North West ones) were already at a full timetable before the timetable change date.

No, those services which were not reinstated and have likely not run since March.

 

[peters]

No, those services which were not reinstated and have likely not run since March.

Ah, I read your question in reverse.

Hopefully the Buxton ones are among what TfN are reviewing. When they were added in May 2018 it was expected that the extra Macclesfield and Greenbank services would follow in December 2018 and it was never the case that if only one extra path was available that the Buxton services were most in need of that path.

 

[Greybeard33]

Hopefully the Buxton ones are among what TfN are reviewing. When they were added in May 2018 it was expected that the extra Macclesfield and Greenbank services would follow in December 2018 and it was never the case that if only one extra path was available that the Buxton services were most in need of that path.

No, but it was the case that only a Buxton or Hazel Grove service was able to take advantage of the available path. A Macclesfield service would not fit between the Avanti and XC paths south of Edgeley, while Network Rail deemed that a Greenbank service would introduce too much performance risk.

It should be borne in mind that the Dec 2020 timetable in the NW would not have been the same as the Dec 2019 timetable even without Covid. There were plans afoot to make a start on reducing services through the Castlefield corridor to address the congestion, probably with more drastic timetable changes in May/Dec 2021.

 

[peters]

No, but it was the case that only a Buxton or Hazel Grove service was able to take advantage of the available path. A Macclesfield service would not fit between the Avanti and XC paths south of Edgeley, while Network Rail deemed that a Greenbank service would introduce too much performance risk.

According to MCRUA paths were approved for the additional Greenbank services and while they were nicely spaced in the Chester direction, leaving Piccadilly at 10 past and 20 to the hour, they were very close together in the Manchester direction with the semi-fast getting in to Piccadilly something like 15 minutes after the stopper. They said there was a shortage of available trains due to delays in cascading from GWR and for reasons unknown to them Northern decided they would launch the Buxton service and delay the additional Mid-Cheshire service, only for Network Rail to change their minds about paths after the May 2018 timetable change.

*******************
24 Dec:
Seems the 17:18 Stockport-Chester has been deleted the RTT and National Rail systems for today. No mention of it being cancelled or anything. Looks like the 09:41 Manchester to Chester ran as 4 carriages with the return working only being 2, so there's still a train at Chester available for the evening Helsby-Ellesmere Port services.

 

[johntea]

Did Northern services knock off a bit earlier for Christmas Eve this year or am I just imagining things?

19:32 Leeds to Sheffield was the last service available for Castleford, I'm sure in previous years there was one an hour later but I may be wrong, to be honest with all the pubs shut in Tier 3 there probably weren't too many passengers after 6pm considering most shops were closing at 5pm!

 

[peterblue]

That seems about right to me. They finish earlier on Christmas Eve. Northern aren't doing anything on Boxing Day either this year.

 

[JRT]

That seems about right to me. They finish earlier on Christmas Eve. Northern aren't doing anything on Boxing Day either this year.

Similar to last year, finishing about 20:00, 8 PM. A few years back trains continued until around 21:00 / 9 pm

Last year's Boxing Day timetables on the ‘triangle’ were not highly patronised. There's also some engineering works on the Bradford Forster Square to Leeds line, including the complete closure of Leeds station. Plus many stores and other attractions are closed.

 

[peters]

Seems while Northern haven't reduced Sunday services they are using engineering works as an excuse for longer bus replacements than necessary. For example, for 5 Sundays Network Rail will be working on a 300m section of track between Navigation Road and Stockport. Northern have decided to run replacement buses from Chester to Stockport, rather than retaining a Chester to Altrincham service and only running a bus replacement on the closed section. The work Network Rail are undertaking is apparently to prevent flooding, which is very welcome after flooding recently caused severe disruption.

 

[Greybeard33]

Seems while Northern haven't reduced Sunday services they are using engineering works as an excuse for longer bus replacements than necessary. For example, for 5 Sundays Network Rail will be working on a 300m section of track between Navigation Road and Stockport. Northern have decided to run replacement buses from Chester to Stockport, rather than retaining a Chester to Altrincham service and only running a bus replacement on the closed section. The work Network Rail are undertaking is apparently to prevent flooding, which is very welcome after flooding recently caused severe disruption.

According to the Network Rail website:

During the rail closures, work will also be undertaken to upgrade signalling equipment between Cuddington and Northwich stations.

Passengers to benefit from railway drainage improvements in Trafford

Passenger journeys are being made more reliable with railway drainage upgrade work underway in Greater Manchester.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

That is why the whole line is being bustituted.

 

[JRT]

More news about the May 2021 timetable in the https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/may-2021-timetable-change.213723/unread

 

[Jamesrob637]

Seems while Northern haven't reduced Sunday services they are using engineering works as an excuse for longer bus replacements than necessary. For example, for 5 Sundays Network Rail will be working on a 300m section of track between Navigation Road and Stockport. Northern have decided to run replacement buses from Chester to Stockport, rather than retaining a Chester to Altrincham service and only running a bus replacement on the closed section. The work Network Rail are undertaking is apparently to prevent flooding, which is very welcome after flooding recently caused severe disruption.

There aren't many trains to bustitute on Sundays given that line should have become an hourly service on Sundays way back!

 

[peters]

According to the Network Rail website:

Passengers to benefit from railway drainage improvements in Trafford

Passenger journeys are being made more reliable with railway drainage upgrade work underway in Greater Manchester.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

That is why the whole line is being bustituted.

Northern's site doesn't mention the signalling upgrades so it made it sound like they are running rail replacement buses from Chester to Stockport because of 300m of track being worked on!

 

[JRT]

From other thread, May 21 timetable

Blackburn to Rochdale - hourly
Preston to Victoria - 2 hourly service
Victoria to Stalybridge - hourly
Rose Hill Marple to Piccadilly - Mix of hourly and half hourly
Liverpool to Wigan - hourly
Buxton to Piccadilly - hourly (plus limited peak extras)
Chester to Manchester via Altrincham - hourly
Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington - hourly daytime

 

[ChrisC]

I notice the Leeds-Lincoln service is still missing between Leeds and Sheffield, and that was a pre 2018 timetable service aside the fact it ran as a separate service between Leeds and Sheffield and wasn't combined with the Lincoln service. The Sheffield-Gainsborough Central is now also only running on a very limited basis instead of hourly.

Of course the original plan was to move the Nottingham service to the Moorthorpe route and extend it to Bradford but presumably that's dead in the water now.

Unless I’ve missed something there still doesn’t seem to be much improvement in the new timetables from May. Will there now not be any improvement in frequency of trains between Sheffield and Leeds before the next timetable change.

If passenger numbers recover during the summer it is going to get very overcrowded between these 2 major cities if the only relatively fast services are the hourly XC train and the hourly Leeds to Nottingham.

 

[peters]

Unless I’ve missed something there still doesn’t seem to be much improvement in the new timetables from May. Will there now not be any improvement in frequency of trains between Sheffield and Leeds before the next timetable change.

If passenger numbers recover during the summer it is going to get very overcrowded between these 2 major cities if the only relatively fast services are the hourly XC train and the hourly Leeds to Nottingham.

On some routes the May timetable is showing fewer services than the December timetable. Someone did mention about there being an option to reinstate missing services in September but that's over 3 months after things should have returned to 'normal' based on the government's roadmap.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Bit of an oddity at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme on Sundays (please feel free to move to another thread if necessary) in that they have gained one more train at 15:46 towards Manchester, thereby plugging the 3-hour gap between 14:17 and 17:17. They will also gain a 12:25 towards Manchester from the 4th or 11th of April.

 

[peters]

So Northern currently have a timetable on their website applicable from 5th April showing the 08:04 Stockport to Chester and 10:00 Chester to Manchester Oxford Road services. Despite that these services haven't operated since Maundy Thursday (1st April.)

There's been the following conversation on Twitter:

Claire Hello - the 8.04 Stockport - Altrincham is now not showing as running. Has it been removed from the timetable?

Northern Hello Claire, sadly we do not have a 08:04 service on this route ^VR

Claire But you did last week and the two weeks before that. I tweeted you and the reply I got was that whilst it wasn’t on the timetable, it was running.

Northern I cannot find this service running at all, as it is not on the timetables I cannot take this any further. I am very sorry for the confusion caused. ^VR

(following someone else getting involved)

Northern Hello again, we have just been informed that the service not running this week and next, because it’s the school holidays, and the service was intended to support school flows, but it is planned to resume from Monday 19th April. ^VR

https://twitter.com/trixiefox01/status/1379189763845066757

It's almost like Northern don't want anyone to use the train. The 10:00 Chester to Manchester via Altrincham service would be very useful today considering an incident has resulted in the suspension of services between Warrington Bank Quay and Manchester.

 

[adrock1976]

Hidden on the last page of a TfGM meeting document is a mention that 8 routes won't return to a full timetable in December. The lines are services affected are as below:

Blackburn to Rochdale - hourly service
Preston to Victoria - 2 hourly service
Victoria to Stalybridge - hourly service
Rose Hill Marple to Piccadilly - hourly service
Liverpool to Wigan - hourly service
Buxton to Piccadilly - will remain hourly at off-peak times only
Chester to Manchester via Altrincham - peak time extras won't be reinstated
Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington - 10 fast services daily instead of 18

The Rose Hill mention is particularly interesting after Chris Jackson reassuring passengers they'll get their pre-COVID timetable back in December.

Link to the meeting notes: https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/s9425/05 GMTC MRN 20200918 Local Rail Service Performance.pdf

Something I have noticed is that the Hull - Scarborough has a lot of missing trains.

For example, the 11:21 Filey (ex Hull) - Scarborough is missing according to the Real Time Trains website, even though I booked on this connecting train using the LNER website (Filey - Seamer/Scarborough - York - Croy split tickets for Friday 7 May) on 26 March.

It is noted that there are no missing trains for the outward on Monday 3 May (11:55 Croy - Filey arrive 17:12).

 

[Watershed]

It is noted that there are no missing trains for the outward

Not yet.