8 Northern routes to not return to full service in December

[Bletchleyite]

It's had four services a day each way for most of those years, as I understood it - far from the "once a week" minimum service requirements for something to be "parliamentary" IMHO.

4 uselessly timed trains - not quite the bare minimum, but definitely a wilfully useless service.

 

[KevinTurvey]

I too think the Wigan Liverpool reduction to hourly is a bad move. They are popular trains in the peaks and on Saturdays especially are heaving with shoppers and pub goers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I too think the Wigan Liverpool reduction to hourly is a bad move. They are popular trains in the peaks and on Saturdays especially are heaving with shoppers and pub goers.

There is still the Preston service though, I think? Perhaps some stops should be inserted in it.

 

[peters]

It always seems to have a relatively weak case whenever TfGM examine it. I think it boils down to lack of real population density after Hale to sustain a frequent service until you're at Knutsford itself.

Mobberley is a very large village by area and the issue is the station is at the far extreme so for some Mobberley residents it's 1.5 miles to the station but there's also places of employment in Knutsford also 1.5 miles away, so many people in Mobberley aren't going to get a train to a job in Knutsford. Due to how spread out the village is that increases the likelihood of passengers using the station having bikes, something Metrolink doesn't really have a solution for.

I'm pretty sure TfGM actually proposed relocating Mobberley station in their tram-train proposal to move it near where the rail line crosses Broad Oak Lane and then putting installing CCTV, 6 ticket machines, a lot of cycle storage and a lot of parking to make it a Park & Ride station, which was one of the reasons the whole proposal became unaffordable.

There is still the Preston service though, I think? Perhaps some stops should be inserted in it.

I think that's already happening in the absence of the second hourly stopper to Wigan. There's also some stations on that section which the Liverpool to Crewe via Manchester service calls at, obviously that's no good if people want to travel to Wigan but is just as good as any other service for going in to Liverpool.

 

[splashoutradio]

Liverpool- Wigan hourly, this service is heaving at 2tph plus the additional fast especially Liverpool-St Helens, Prescot will go from 2tph to 1tph that's not great for a quite sizeable town

As a regular user of the line (on a station that isn't served by the fast trains) I can confirm the line can get very busy under the current hourly timetable. Whilst trains are often formed of 6 carriages, many platforms can't accommodate trains of this size, so the guard quite often locks the rear three out of use, causing the front three to become overcrowded.

 

[bengley]

As a regular user of the line (on a station that isn't served by the fast trains) I can confirm the line can get very busy under the current hourly timetable. Whilst trains are often formed of 6 carriages, many platforms can't accommodate trains of this size, so the guard quite often locks the rear three out of use, causing the front three to become overcrowded.

It's worth kicking up a fuss about sets being locked out. Northern guards have specifically been instructed not to lock sets out if possible. 331s have selective door opening and as such should not need to be locked out completely.

 

[peters]

It's worth kicking up a fuss about sets being locked out. Northern guards have specifically been instructed not to lock sets out if possible. 331s have selective door opening and as such should not need to be locked out completely.

Even without selective door operation would it be possible to have all carriages open for part of the journey e.g. for the final stations approaching Lime Street?

 

[bengley]

Even without selective door operation would it be possible to have all carriages open for part of the journey e.g. for the final stations approaching Lime Street?

It would be and that is supposed to be the method of work as far as I'm aware.

 

[AMD]

It's worth kicking up a fuss about sets being locked out. Northern guards have specifically been instructed not to lock sets out if possible. 331s have selective door opening and as such should not need to be locked out completely.

For clarity they're not physically locked out, however as has been pointed out virtually every platform can only accommodate 8 doors maximum, which under the present system limitations means only the front unit and the leading door - which is the one the conductor uses. As we (as conductors) don't like having a crowd standing around us with Covid in play, it means only the leading 6 doors are in use, hence only passengers can only use the leading unit.
When we first had the 2 sets running on this route, I had pass in the rear unit and I've had multiple times when pass have come to me to say that the doors never opened - they haven't bothered listening to any of the announcements that either the system of myself have made - so for that reason i'd rather make the train late and have everyone moved into the front unit, unless they are going to Lime Street or Wigan specifically.

 

[scrapy]

There is still the Preston service though, I think? Perhaps some stops should be inserted in it.

Would certainly make sense to at least add a Prescot stop to this if paths allow. Certainly towards Liverpool the train often waits time at Huyton. Unfortunately northbound it can't leave Lime St earlier as stuck behind Crewe stopper and timings are tight up to Preston

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Still no Sunday service on Styal line..

 

[peters]

My local line (Saltburn - Darlington) remains hourly

Hull-Scarborough is hourly (a 2019 improvement) with a couple of extras from Bridlington (usually hourly to York). Loadings are not too bad on the 3 car turbos. So around a 55% service.

The Ellesmere Port to Leeds service seems to have been canned. I used this for a while when it started up as I used to work in Manchester next to Victoria station. There isn't even a replacement service from Chester.
The evening service to Ellesmere Port still runs I note.

Still no Sunday service on Styal line

Can please we keep this thread for discussing which lines are aren't returning to a full service at the December timetable change, opposed to mentioning every route which is currently missing services in the timetable introduced in September (which there is already another thread for)?

 

[Old Yard Dog]

From December, Ellesmere Port - Manchester - Leeds services are being diverted from/to Chester. A replacement service between Ellesmere Port and Helsby will run to/from Liverpool via Runcorn. Due to Covid-19, currently there is only one train per day each way on the Ellesmere Port - Helsby line. I don't know the full service levels post December.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From December, Ellesmere Port - Manchester - Leeds services are being diverted from/to Chester. A replacement service between Ellesmere Port and Helsby will run to/from Liverpool via Runcorn. Due to Covid-19, currently there is only one train per day each way on the Ellesmere Port - Helsby line. I don't know the full service levels post December.

Who is going to operate that DMU? TfW?

 

[Llandudno]

When is the last time a regular timetabled service operated from Ellesmere Port via the Halton Curve to Liverpool?

Does this mean that Helsby and Frodsham will have additional peak hour trains to/from Liverpool, presumably this will abstract revenue from the newish TfW service?

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Who is going to operate that DMU? TfW?

Northern will operate the Ellesmere Port - Liverpool services via the Halton curve. Northern's additional Chester - Manchester - Leeds services, gained at Ellesmere Port's expense, replace TfW's extra peak hour Chester - Manchester workings, so maintaining 2 tph between Chester and Manchester via Warrington BQ.

 

[markymark2000]

Northern will operate the Ellesmere Port - Liverpool services via the Halton curve. Northern's additional Chester - Manchester - Leeds services, gained at Ellesmere Port's expense, replace TfW's extra peak hour Chester - Manchester workings, so maintaining 2 tph between Chester and Manchester via Warrington BQ.

Very good plan.

I did notice pre Covid, people would use the TFW service to Helsby, cross over the platform and then get the Northern service from Eport because passengers knew how crammed the TFW service got past Runcorn and the Northern service was busy but not overcrowded.


I do like the plan of Eport to Liverpool via the Halton Curve. Very interesting service that one. The Halton Curve doesn't seem overly busy (all seats filled on a 153 sort of busy) so it wouldn't do much from that respect but it will certainly be decent for Ince and Elton. Arrival/departure into Lime Street dependant, it could generate some usage there since the service will be competitive on journey time (compared to driving to Helsby or the Port and using the respective services into Liverpool from there). I certainly think that the service will be better used to Liverpool and it means capacity is in the right places for passengers.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Northern will operate the Ellesmere Port - Liverpool services via the Halton curve. Northern's additional Chester - Manchester - Leeds services, gained at Ellesmere Port's expense, replace TfW's extra peak hour Chester - Manchester workings, so maintaining 2 tph between Chester and Manchester via Warrington BQ.

It will be interesting to see if the service from E Port is a useful one or a bare bones one. Thanks for the information.

 

[peters]

Northern will operate the Ellesmere Port - Liverpool services via the Halton curve. Northern's additional Chester - Manchester - Leeds services, gained at Ellesmere Port's expense, replace TfW's extra peak hour Chester - Manchester workings, so maintaining 2 tph between Chester and Manchester via Warrington BQ.

Sounds like good news for those working near Victoria station but not so good news for those working near Oxford Road and Piccadilly stations. Just glanced at the current train times and noticed the 17:20 Piccadilly to Lime Street via Newton-le-Willows, will likely be a connecting service to the Victoria to Chester service. Will there be enough room on that train leaving Oxford Road?

 

[Jamesrob637]

One peak extra, the 17:19 Stockport to Chester, will be returning in December.

Greater Manchester is predominantly urban and Cheshire predominantly rural, but I am well aware of the exceptions; I now live in the Bowdon/Dunham/Warburton ward of Trafford Council and used to live in urban Macclesfield. The Greater Manchester boundary is quite logical in this area; it runs along the line of the River Bollin, which though small, is a significant barrier to road communication, with only 3 road bridges across it between the Ship Canal and east of Ashley.

And one of those only carries barges and foot passengers/cyclists.

 

[peters]

One peak extra, the 17:19 Stockport to Chester, will be returning in December.

From looking at RTT it looks like the unit off that service will run the 19:00 Chester to Piccadilly, with the unit off the 16:41 Manchester-Chester running to Helsby to run a Helsby-Ellesmere Port service, followed by a Ellesmere Port-Liverpool service. It'll mean if anyone in Ellesmere Port is working in central Manchester they'll need to get a 06:33 service to Helsby and then an onward service to Manchester, then coming back they'll need to get an 18:54 service from Helsby. Not sure what happens to the train off the morning Ellesmere Port working, it appears to go to Chester. There's a 09:42 empty movement to Newton Heath but I'm not sure if that's been left in by accident from when the train off the 07:41 Piccadilly to Chester (not included) runs empty to Newton Heath with the train off the 08:18 Stockport to Chester, forming the next service to Manchester.

 

[daodao]

One peak extra, the 17:19 Stockport to Chester, will be returning in December.


And one of those only carries barges and foot passengers/cyclists.

I commented on this peak hour extra from Stockport in the "December 2020 timetable change" thread.

There are 3 road bridges over the River Bollin, at Heatley (A5144), Dunham Road (A56) and Ashley Road (unclassified) until one gets to the east of Ashley. I am wondering whether I may be stopped by police near a bridge over the River Bollin tomorrow on my way to work!

 

[Greybeard33]

From looking at RTT it looks like the unit off that service will run the 19:00 Chester to Piccadilly, with the unit off the 16:41 Manchester-Chester running to Helsby to run a Helsby-Ellesmere Port service, followed by a Ellesmere Port-Liverpool service.

Yes, see my previous post in the Dec 2020 thread.

Not sure what happens to the train off the morning Ellesmere Port working, it appears to go to Chester. There's a 09:42 empty movement to Newton Heath but I'm not sure if that's been left in by accident from when the train off the 07:41 Piccadilly to Chester (not included) runs empty to Newton Heath with the train off the 08:18 Stockport to Chester, forming the next service to Manchester.

From RTT I would deduce that the stock off the morning Ellesmere Port train (arr ECS in Chester P6 at 0702 as 5D33) will remain in Chester P6 for 3 hours. It will then work the 1002 to Piccadilly (2H38 from P6). The stock off the 0808 Piccadilly to Chester (2D43, arr in Chester P5 0936) will run ECS to Newton Heath as 5J43, dep Chester P5 0942.

 

[peters]

There are 3 road bridges over the River Bollin, at Heatley (A5144), Dunham Road (A56) and Ashley Road (unclassified) until one gets to the east of Ashley. I am wondering whether I may be stopped by police near a bridge over the River Bollin tomorrow on my way to work!

My point about the GM boundary being a randomly drawn line didn't mean I was suggesting it could have been drawn further out from Manchester, you could easily ask why the semi-rural villages around Altrincham are included in a Metropolitan area and why the boundary isn't closer to the old Cheshire/Lancashire boundary near Sale.

From RTT I would deduce that the stock off the morning Ellesmere Port train (arr ECS in Chester P6 at 0702 as 5D33) will remain in Chester P6 for 3 hours. It will then work the 1002 to Piccadilly (2H38 from P6). The stock off the 0808 Piccadilly to Chester (2D43, arr in Chester P5 0936) will run ECS to Newton Heath as 5J43, dep Chester P5 0942.

Seems a waste when there's 2 x Chester to Stockport services and 1 x Stockport to Chester service missing in the morning. It could do something like 07:15 Chester to Altrincham (stopping only at Greenbank, Northwich, Knutsford & Hale) and then a return working between Altrincham and Chester (all stops) at roughly the time the c.07:40 Manchester-Chester would run that part of the service, which would make things significantly better for the school children travelling in both directions.

 

[swissrailpassion]

Some improvements between Hull and Scarborough. The timings now work and there are some extras from Bridlington to York at the peaks.

 

[Greybeard33]

Seems a waste when there's 2 x Chester to Stockport services and 1 x Stockport to Chester service missing in the morning. It could do something like 07:15 Chester to Altrincham (stopping only at Greenbank, Northwich, Knutsford & Hale) and then a return working between Altrincham and Chester (all stops) at roughly the time the c.07:40 Manchester-Chester would run that part of the service, which would make things significantly better for the school children travelling in both directions.

It was stated in the 21 October TfN Rail North Committee meeting that the availability of enough suitably trained drivers (with the appropriate combination of traction and route knowledge) is still the main constraint on Northern restoring more services in December. (Meeting webcast available at:

Rail North Committee 21/10/2020 - Wednesday 21 October 2020, 11:00am - Transport for the North Webcasting

Rail North Committee 21/10/2020 - Wednesday 21 October 2020, 11:00am - Transport for the North Webcasting

transportforthenorth.public-i.tv

Just because there will be a train available that could work the extra services you suggest, it does not necessarily follow that a driver could be found to drive it. I have no information on Northern's driver diagrams.

 

[peters]

It was stated in the 21 October TfN Rail North Committee meeting that the availability of enough suitably trained drivers (with the appropriate combination of traction and route knowledge) is still the main constraint on Northern restoring more services in December. (Meeting webcast available at:

Just because there will be a train available that could work the extra services you suggest, it does not necessarily follow that a driver could be found to drive it. I have no information on Northern's driver diagrams.

I would be surprised if Northern can't source a driver until the May 2021 timetable change, as we've seen with Rose Hill Marple Northern have been able to phase in additional services which weren't on the original plan. It's not like Northern (or any other operator) will wave a magic wand the day before a timetable change and a significant number of fully trained drivers will appear as if by magic.

 

[Greybeard33]

I would be surprised if Northern can't source a driver until the May 2021 timetable change, as we've seen with Rose Hill Marple Northern have been able to phase in additional services which weren't on the original plan. It's not like Northern (or any other operator) will wave a magic wand the day before a timetable change and a significant number of fully trained drivers will appear as if by magic.

The information Northern provided to TfN (which may now be out of date - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/december-2020-timetable-change.206880/page-6#post-4834247) was that 11% of services across the Northern network would remain suspended in the December 2020 timetable, mainly due to driver shortage. For example, Rose Hill Marple would only get an hourly service vice half hourly. And 8% of services would still have to remain suspended in the May 2021 timetable. Driver training is a slow process!

 

[geoffk]

Why is Northern still so short of drivers? Have some moved to another TOC/freight company, or is there still a backlog of training on new stock? And is dependence on so much overtime a good thing?

 

[Old Yard Dog]

It will be interesting to see if the service from E Port is a useful one or a bare bones one. Thanks for the information.

It will almost certainly be a parliamentary service - and much less useful for those of us living in Ellesmere Port than the service to Warrington BW, Manchester and Leeds that it replaces. Ellesmere Port already has a frequent direct service to Liverpool.