89001 'Avocet' to return?

[caliwag]

Talk in this weeks Rail about assessment of the 89 for East Coast services. Is this a spoof?

 

[DarloRich]

if it was April i would say so.

it is 125 mph capable locomotive. Would be nice to see it back!

 

[sprinterguy]

Again? hock: While I agree with DarloRich that it would be nice to see it back, surely unless East Coast intend to scratch together a rake of loco hauled mark 3s then with thirty one class 91s available but only thirty mark 4 rakes it isn’t really needed? The 89 hardly covered itself in glory when it was brought back by GNER for a short time, it can’t have run a great many trouble free hours of service. The curse of being the sole member of a class incorporating many unique features.

 

[Yew]

A 125mph locomotive would be nice, but what would it pull? a new rake of MK3's? or mk4's when an Electra was in for repair. Maybe the pretendolino's carriages?

Also, its recently been painted into IC swallow. I wonder if It would stay like that, or would we see a repaint? If it stays I imagine it could be popular with enthusiasts if some BR painted stock was hooked on the back

 

[sprinterguy]

Also, its recently been painted into IC swallow. I wonder if It would stay like that, or would we see a repaint? If it stays I imagine it could be popular with enthusiasts if some BR painted stock was hooked on the back

To be pedantic, it has been repainted into Intercity Executive livery, which suited it far, far better than Intercity Swallow IMO. It’d be good to see it retain Executive livery on the main line. Hook it up with Riveria’s rake of Intercity mark 2s, and it would be immediately reminiscent of the ECML’s late 80s/early 90s mark 2 commuter runs to Peterborough! However, this would be more appropriate for the present operator: http://www.fictitiousliveries.co.uk/photo.php?89001_ec.jpg

 

[ainsworth74]

Well if they're still worried by the 91s reliability it might make vague sense to bring in an extra loco to add a bit more breathing room in the fleet for maintenance (be it preventative or otherwise).

 

[captainbigun]

The 89 hardly covered itself in glory when it was brought back by GNER for a short time, it can’t have run a great many trouble free hours of service.

Actually, it wasn't that bad at all. The poor quality of the motor overhauls ultimately told, that's not the loco's fault.

 

[Yew]

To be pedantic, it has been repainted into Intercity Executive livery, which suited it far, far better than Intercity Swallow IMO. It’d be good to see it retain Executive livery on the main line. Hook it up with Riveria’s rake of Intercity mark 2s, and it would be immediately reminiscent of the ECML’s late 80s/early 90s mark 2 commuter runs to Peterborough! However, this would be more appropriate for the present operator: http://www.fictitiousliveries.co.uk/photo.php?89001_ec.jpg

I agree there, Swallow definately looked best as a 91/90/DVT livery. How does Badger compare to an Electra for acceleration?

 

[185]

Back when I was at GNER, at the time I didn't really notice working behind it, nor did I understand the hoardes of people who were out taking pictures of it. Think I worked behind it about 15-20 times in all.

It certainly is a one-off remarkable machine, but I hear it's been languishing for a long time outside in the open.

 

[captainbigun]

It certainly is a one-off remarkable machine, but I hear it's been languishing for a long time outside in the open.

Warm storage is a bit hard to come by....however languising doesn't involve being lifted and motors being sent for overhaul.....

Nice paint doesn't equal excellent engineering condition.

 

[sprinterguy]

Actually, it wasn't that bad at all. The poor quality of the motor overhauls ultimately told, that's not the loco's fault.

Oh, fair enough. Apologies, I wasn’t aiming to sully the class 89s’ good name, I just seem to recall a lot of reports of it breaking down after only a few days in service. Not so much a fault of the loco’s technologies themselves by the sounds of it then.

 

[captainbigun]

Oh, fair enough. Apologies, I wasn’t aiming to sully the class 89s’ good name, I just seem to recall a lot of reports of it breaking down after only a few days in service. Not so much a fault of the loco’s technologies themselves by the sounds of it then.

No problem :grin:

 

[Peter Sarf]

I seem to remember reading that the 31 class91s are not available enough for the 30 rakes of Mk4s. I also read somewhere recently that there are enough spare Mark4 coaches to cobble together another rake. In terms of the aformentioned its probably as likely as it was last time it actually happened.

The only problem I see with 89001 is that it is unique so a bit of a maintenance overhead. But it might still be better than a 91 !. It is also available isnt it ?. Wonder how many extra passengers it would pull in if it runs on predctable services ?.

 

[sprinterguy]

I also read somewhere recently that there are enough spare Mark4 coaches to cobble together another rake.

There aren't: There are 30 x 9-car rakes plus two spare carriages and a spare DVT. That the reliability of the thirty one class 91s might be insufficient to provide sufficient locos for the thirty mark 4 sets is a very good point though.

 

[370001]

I hadn't actually realised that the 89 is Co-Co configuration until i saw the fictitious liveries picture...

 

[Maxfly]

Was there not talk of the 91's needing a refurb again? Could the 89 be brought back to cover for a 91 going in for overhaul...'if' the story has substance behind it of course.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think that comes from East Coast saying they were looking at all the options to sort out the reliability of the 91s with options ranging from another total refurb (in the style of GNER's) to ditching them and the Mk4s entirely and buying new trains. Now I don't think there's been another mention of that since, but I'd imagine any plans they have are slowly moving forward and that a total refurb of the 91s would be the most logical course of action.

 

[ryan125hst]

Again? hock: While I agree with DarloRich that it would be nice to see it back, surely unless East Coast intend to scratch together a rake of loco hauled mark 3s then with thirty one class 91s available but only thirty mark 4 rakes it isn’t really needed? The 89 hardly covered itself in glory when it was brought back by GNER for a short time, it can’t have run a great many trouble free hours of service. The curse of being the sole member of a class incorporating many unique features.

Don't forget, they are hiring at least one HST set from East Midand's Trains (I'm sure it's following me- I've been on it three times vs once on a true EC HST!) I think they have also hired a set from FGW.

If they were able to hire a rake of 9 Mark 3's then Avocet might be a good loco to haul them. Class 90's can only go 110 mph can't they?

 

[ainsworth74]

The EMT set has been transferred to East Coast so it's now one of theirs. They've hired an FGW set in the past but at the present time they don't have one. I still think that if this rumour about the 89 is true then it's going to be hauling Mk4s whilst a 91 is off being overhauled rather than cobbling together a Mk3 rake. Also yes, 90s top out a 110mph which is why they're not an option as Network Rail are fairly adamant that the ECML is a 125mph railway for inter-city services.

 

[43167]

The EMT set has been transferred to East Coast so it's now one of theirs. They've hired an FGW set in the past but at the present time they don't have one. I still think that if this rumour about the 89 is true then it's going to be hauling Mk4s whilst a 91 is off being overhauled rather than cobbling together a Mk3 rake. Also yes, 90s top out a 110mph which is why they're not an option as Network Rail are fairly adamant that the ECML is a 125mph railway for inter-city services.

Theres abit in current Rail about hiring another set.

 

[Yew]

The EMT set has been transferred to East Coast so it's now one of theirs. They've hired an FGW set in the past but at the present time they don't have one. I still think that if this rumour about the 89 is true then it's going to be hauling Mk4s whilst a 91 is off being overhauled rather than cobbling together a Mk3 rake. Also yes, 90s top out a 110mph which is why they're not an option as Network Rail are fairly adamant that the ECML is a 125mph railway for inter-city services.

I know its not ideal, but what about a 67?

 

[ryan125hst]

Also yes, 90s top out a 110mph which is why they're not an option as Network Rail are fairly adamant that the ECML is a 125mph railway for inter-city services.

Has this rule changed since the last refurbishment? I vaguely remember seeing a class 90 at Retford years ago, presumably replacing either a failed class 91, or one that was undergoing refurbishment.

Also, would it ever be possible to allow class 90's to run at 125 mph. How much work would be needed to be done to allow this (and the loco hauled Mark 3 coaches for that matter)?

 

[ainsworth74]

I know its not ideal, but what about a 67?

I think a 67 hauling +9/10 would have pretty terrible acceleration so would really not be at all ideal what with the timetabling being so tight on EC services these days. Also unless you borrow some of the 67s that have been modified to work with DVTs (and aren't they nearly all accounted for elsewhere?) then you're going to be doing a lot of running around adding time and complications to the service.

Also I've always been under the impression that 67s are 125mph locos in name only and that there are problems with them going much above 100mph, though I'm not sure what the problem is so that might just be me picking up on a 'railway myth'.

 

[sprinterguy]

Has this rule changed since the last refurbishment? I vaguely remember seeing a class 90 at Retford years ago, presumably replacing either a failed class 91, or one that was undergoing refurbishment.

The "125mph only" rule on the ECML has only been introduced since the introduction of the new timetable in order to maximise paths available. Indeed, National Express' original proposal for the new timetable to provide bi-hourly trains to York was to introduce class 90s and mark 3 rakes, later replaced by 180s to allow 125mph operation and services to Lincoln.

GNER used to regularly hire a class 90 from EWS on a daily basis on a London - Leeds diagram to cover for insufficient class 91s. In fact, one class 90, 90024, was even painted into GNER livery for this duty, although it very rarely actually appeared on it!

 

[D365]

Would it be worth it reengineering 3+ 90s for 125mph as ECML cover, considering that it wouldn't benefit WCML/GEML or freight trains. That said, I would love to see 89 back in service; isn't it being restored by ACLG?

 

[ryan125hst]

Who introduced the rule then, East Coast or Network Rail?

 

[ainsworth74]

Who introduced the rule then, East Coast or Network Rail?

If you mean the 125mph only rule then that would have been Network Rail as they were the ones that had/have to try and make the timetable work.

 

[bluenoxid]

Apart from a number painted in the cab and the paperwork, what stops a 90 reaching 120/125mph?

 

[IanBanks-Jones]

Would venture that it is all to do with gearing and power. Whilst a 91 was (loosely) based on the apt power car, the 90 is just an updated version of a class 87 (the 90's were going to be designated as 87/2's). Just 'cos they were built at similar times, painted the same and had pointy front ends doesn't mean that they were the same.

That isn't to say they couldn't be modified to do so. Whether it'd be financially viable for such a short term measure is a major doubt though.

 

[DXMachina]

Also, they're about 25 years old - if you want to add 15mph to the top speed you'd stand a better chance with a more modern locomotive. Assuming the usual 10% overspeed, 90s when new would only have been capable of 121mph