A concept worth trying?

[ooo]

Apologies if this is in the wrong sub forum

In the Occtanie department of Southern France on some lines:

https://www.ter.sncf.com/occitanie/offres/tarifs/lignes-a-un-euro

• Nîmes - Le Grau-du-Roi
• Carcassonne - Quillan
• Perpignan - Villefranche-Vernet-les-Bains
• Marvejols - La Bastide - Saint-Laurent
• Béziers - Bédarieux - Ceilhes-Roqueredonde

all tickets for all trains are €1 along with a limited number of tickets on other lines.

I was wondering if this would be a good way to try and boost patronage on branch lines with limited use here in the UK and try and get more people out of their cars. Of course the money for this would have to come from somewhere but I imagine these lines are heavily subsided anyway and so it wouldn't make a considerable difference and would be beneficial in other ways as well.

 

[yorkie]

Unfortunately this goes against UK government policy of deterring rail use with high fares, and encouraging modal shift to road, so it is unlikely to happen!

 

[ooo]

Unfortunately this goes against UK government policy of deterring rail use with high fares, and encouraging modal shift to road, so it is unlikely to happen!

Yes sadly that is the case. It seems they take a very different approach there with all bus services in one department in the region (Pyrenees Orientales (66)) being €1 as well which appears to be effective with lots of buses being very busy and requiring reliefs.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[alistairlees]

Unfortunately this goes against UK government policy of deterring rail use with high fares, and encouraging modal shift to road, so it is unlikely to happen!

I don't know of any such government policy. Can you provide a link?

There is a government policy (and has been for some time) to ensure a higher % of rail costs are borne by rail passengers, though that isn't necessarily the same thing.

I suspect these local trains in France are very empty (many local lines are on their last legs, so I hear); it seems to me to be a bit of a last roll of the dice, rather than a sustainable policy.

 

[SS4]

In the UK the government is attempting to curb the growth of rail by making travellers shoulder more of the cost compared to previous years. In essence this means if a scheme were to exist then local authorities have to fund it when they're also facing massive cuts.

 

[yorkie]

I don't know of any such government policy. Can you provide a link?

There is a government policy (and has been for some time) to ensure a higher % of rail costs are borne by rail passengers, though that isn't necessarily the same thing.

We can agree to disagree; it is effectively the same thing as far as I'm concerned and I have seen plenty of evidence of prospective rail passengers using road transport due to the rail fares being too high.

I suspect these local trains in France are very empty (many local lines are on their last legs, so I hear); it seems to me to be a bit of a last roll of the dice, rather than a sustainable policy.

Leeds to Morecambe is an example of a line with plenty of spare capacity yet very little is done to attract passengers to it. A short term promotion of very low fares, combined with reasonably low fares at all times, would increase passenger numbers.

A York to Bentham single is over £30 and the cheapest through fares from York to Lancaster/Morecambe booked in advance of travel are on the busy route via Manchester on TPE. The fares appear to either be deliberately designed to discourage use of the line or, perhaps more likely, simply no-one with a power to change anything actually cares or thinks.

 

[455driver]

Unfortunately this goes against UK government policy of deterring rail use with high fares, and encouraging modal shift to road, so it is unlikely to happen!

Thats why all the trains are running around isnt it? :roll:

 

[KnapweedMartha]

While there is no explicit policy to discourage use (that doesn't sound good), there is an acknowledgement among the civil servants and consultants involved that pricing is the principal instrument used to manage rising demand for scarce capacity — which is a spin on the same thing.

It doesn't help that the government has put most of its expansion eggs in the one basket that is HS2, which is long term and uncertain in likelihood and scope, so it can't bank on incremental expansion to meet the demand.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I suspect these local trains in France are very empty (many local lines are on their last legs, so I hear); it seems to me to be a bit of a last roll of the dice, rather than a sustainable policy.

I'm inclined to agree. Genuinely lightly used lines in this country are few and far between, a consequence of past pruning of the network and a relatively high population density. The only through routes I would describe as quiet are (Leeds-)Settle Jn-Carnforth(-Lancaster/Morecambe), as mentioned upthread, and the Heart of Wales line. Of the dead end branches there is a number whose use is very much lower in winter while being reasonably well used in summer (eg Newquay, Kyle of Lochalsh) and perhaps a couple that are genuinely in the doldrums, namely Fishguard, where there has been some revival effort made recently, and Girvan-Stranraer.

That's not to say that additional passenger numbers wouldn't be welcomed elsewhere but "giveaway" fares would only result in a surge of passengers leading to trains being overrun leading to complaints of overcrowding. Promotional fares have their place but this example from France is not one to follow.

 

[KnapweedMartha]

While this is an understandable policy for intercity trains, it sucks for regional trains that could with minimal effort see longer trains and greater frequency.

As the original post suggests, initial special offers followed by competitive fares longer term could be very beneficial.

It isn't without precedent here: The Settle-Carlisle and Leeds-Morecambe line offer local residents the Dales Railcard, which gives a third off all year and a £10 flat day return fare during the winter months.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

While this is an understandable policy for intercity trains, it sucks for regional trains that could with minimal effort see longer trains and greater frequency.

As the original post suggests, initial special offers followed by competitive fares longer term could be very beneficial.

It isn't without precedent here: The Settle-Carlisle and Leeds-Morecambe line offer local residents the Dales Railcard, which gives a third off all year and a £10 flat day return fare during the winter months.

Yet in another thread a poster thinks that Northern run too many trains, that many of them are near empty, and that lots of platforms can't handle even 4-car trains. [/scratches head]

 

[yorkie]

I don't know who that is, or what the context is, as there is no quote, but I would, in principle, disagree with at least two of those claims.

 

[Starmill]

The problem we have and the problem France has are quite different.

I'm not sure I can sensibly comment on France (and the subject of this thread) beyond saying that it would appear they are in some trouble with fiances on these routes. A short-term, super-cheap offer might help make people aware that the service exists, but it's not going to be enough by itself to create something long-term and sustainable.

In the UK, the Government intentionally isn't going for long-term sustainable mass rail use by effectively refusing to grant any capital to allow rail to adapt into new markets. Some has become available in the past 5 years or so but many of these schemes have been cut back, delayed or cancelled entirely. Schemes which expand the scope of rail rather than just trying to get it to catch up a bit with modern expectations (e.g Borders Railway) are small and limited in nature. Even major projects like Crossrail are essentially about providing for today rather than the future. I suppose you could include HS2 as a major exception now it looks likely to go ahead, but even then this isn't guaranteed until the Phase 2 bills are through, and the results won't be really felt for another 15 years. We've caught up slowly in a few areas, but in general the government wishes to impose onerous costs on rail users so that a) they do not have to pay as much for them and b) rail growth isn't too fast. In general if you own a car you will use it and taking the train instead is either poor, or terrible value for money. If two or more people are travelling together you can forget it, the car will be cheaper. This can be dressed up however one likes but the results are the same. Government policy is not pro-rail.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I don't know who that is, or what the context is, as there is no quote, but I would, in principle, disagree with at least two of those claims.

I did not quote the post directly as I did not wish to appear that I was making a personal issue about something that is no more serious than a difference of opinion. My post was effectively to highlight just how wide a spectrum of views can found on this site even in areas where you might expect a good measure of agreement. Given that I have myself been making one or two "lively" contributions to various discussions of late I felt it would do no harm to be diplomatic.

 

[philjo]

Apologies if this is in the wrong sub forum

In the Occtanie department of Southern France on some lines:

https://www.ter.sncf.com/occitanie/offres/tarifs/lignes-a-un-euro


I was wondering if this would be a good way to try and boost patronage on branch lines with limited use here in the UK and try and get more people out of their cars. Of course the money for this would have to come from somewhere but I imagine these lines are heavily subsided anyway and so it wouldn't make a considerable difference and would be beneficial in other ways as well.

Though on Quillan -carcassonne route SNCF have replaced most of the trains by buses! 2 trains per day at Quillan I think. When I was there a couple of years ago we had to catch a bus into Carcassone (also 1euro fare for an hour's journey). The return was train about half way with connecting SNCF coach to Quillan. ( through fare of 1euro). I suspect if the fares were cut in uk the service frequency on those routes would also get cut to 1-2 trains per day.