A Few Questions About My Advance Tickets To York

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PompeyTony

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Good morning - my first post! I have purchased Advance Ist Singles for our trip to York next month from Portsmouth Harbour to York. The purchase was based on South West Trains 07:45 Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo plus East Coast 10:30 London Kings Cross to York.

My queries are:

1) Although it says 'Booked Trains Only' only the East Coast section has the departure time as I had to book a seat. Can I leave Portsmouth Harbour earlier?

2) I assume only the East Coast section allows me to sit in First Class? It's our 29th wedding anniversary and we've never ever gone First Class on any journey!

3) If South West Trains mess up my connection - ie. No train/delays etc. Is it tough luck and buy a new same day ticket at Kings Cross?

4) I had assumed we would need our Oyster Cards for the cross London connection but there is a + icon on our ticket - does this enable us to use the ticket on the Underground?

Hope I haven't duplicated previous posts and given you all sufficient information.

Thank you.
 
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John @ home

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Welcome to the Forum, PompeyTony!

1) Although it says 'Booked Trains Only' only the East Coast section has the departure time as I had to book a seat. Can I leave Portsmouth Harbour earlier?
Yes. The Portsmouth - London train is non-reservable. See Advance Fares FAQs.
Q25. Can passengers on an advance ticket travel on earlier connecting trains?

A.
Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.
2) I assume only the East Coast section allows me to sit in First Class? It's our 29th wedding anniversary and we've never ever gone First Class on any journey!
No. You have a First Class ticket for the whole journey.

3) If South West Trains mess up my connection - ie. No train/delays etc. Is it tough luck and buy a new same day ticket at Kings Cross?
No. You may catch the next East Coast train. See Advance Fares FAQs.
Q22. Can a passenger travel on any other service than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A.
The following principles apply. ...

2) Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the train company or its partners [are] at fault, which should be check by [staff] control office, change to a train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of the combination of rail tickets held.
4) I had assumed we would need our Oyster Cards for the cross London connection but there is a + icon on our ticket - does this enable us to use the ticket on the Underground?
Yes, it does.
 
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Solent&Wessex

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Welcome to the Forum, PompeyTony!

Yes. The Portsmouth - London train is non-reservable. See Advance Fares FAQs.

It might be worth just checking this with the actual booking you made. I have used Advance tickets quite a few times on SWT, most recently a month or so ago when I had a Advance fare from Leeds to Portsmouth Harbour which was marked "EC & Connections", yet I had a reservation for the SWT leg from Waterloo. SWT use the counted places system for advance fares which while you don't actually get a seat reservation, you normally get an allocated train which you have to travel on. Your booking may have no reservation for the PMH - WAT leg, but it is worth just checking how many coupons you actually have.
 

wintonian

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It might be worth just checking this with the actual booking you made. I have used Advance tickets quite a few times on SWT, most recently a month or so ago when I had a Advance fare from Leeds to Portsmouth Harbour which was marked "EC & Connections", yet I had a reservation for the SWT leg from Waterloo. SWT use the counted places system for advance fares which while you don't actually get a seat reservation, you normally get an allocated train which you have to travel on. Your booking may have no reservation for the PMH - WAT leg, but it is worth just checking how many coupons you actually have.

For the SWT (Portsmouth to Waterloo) leg a reservation coupon should be printed which states something like coach * seat * .

This I believe in effect makes the service reservable even though you do not get a specific seat meaning you do need to travel on the booked train.
 

PompeyTony

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I only have 3 Coupons + Collection Receipt. 2 Advance Ist Tickets - Portsmouth Stns to York ( +EC & Connections) together with a Mandatory Reservation Coupon for the London Kings X to York leg showing Coach letter and our 2 seats.
 

Solent&Wessex

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You should have 2 reservation coupons - one to go with each ticket.

Indeed, whenever I have used an Advance ticket either wholly or partly on SWT I have always had a reservation coupon restricting me to particular trains.
 

ainsworth74

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You should have 2 reservation coupons - one to go with each ticket.

Not necessarily, sometimes you can get on coupon that has more than one reservation on it. From what the OP has said this sounds like what has happened here (assuming that they shouldn't have a reservation between PMH and WAT).
 

dvboy

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Indeed, whenever I have used an Advance ticket either wholly or partly on SWT I have always had a reservation coupon restricting me to particular trains.

I meant for the EC leg as there are two tickets, there should be two reservation coupons, surely.
 

MCR247

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I always get a reservation coupon for two seats when I book advance tickets if thats what ainsworth74 was saying?
 

wintonian

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I have 2 tickets for a trip out on EC for later this week and the reservations came on a single coupon.

In that case if you do not (and they say you should only have the 3 coupons) have a reservation coupon for the SWT leg then you may get an earlier train, personally I have always had such a coupon for the SWT leg so am a bit suprised there wasn't one.
 

Greenback

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The last few Advance tickets I have bought for myself and Mrs G have all come with two seat reservations on one coupon, plus a ticket for each of us.
 
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Advance tickets may vary with operators with counted places (ie SWT/Southern)

It depends on what it says on the 'Route' if the route is '+Connections' or '+Conn' then you can take any train to maintain the connection onto your booked service ie. earlier train, different permitted route.

This applies even if you have a 'counted place' reservation or actual reservation on some services.

The restricted services will be on the route of the main ticket (in this case the Portsmouth to York portion route 'EC+CONN'). If it was restricted on the Portsmouth to Waterloo portion then the route would read 'EC+SWT'.

Interestingly the ticket would also be valid on the Southern service via Victoria as it is a permitted connection to your booked service (London to York)

Hope this makes sense
 

IanD

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You should have 2 reservation coupons - one to go with each ticket.

When you book advance tickets with and without a railcard in the same transaction you often get 1 seat reservation coupon for those with the railcard (even one for each type of railcard) and one for those without.
 

wintonian

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... which then presents a problem should the two passengers wish to take different connecting trains.

My tickets for lter in the week are with a disabled persons railcard so I assumed that was why they were printed on the same coupon, likewise for F&F railcards, group save etc. If that's not the case and this happens even when no discount is applied then I find that a bit concerning if as you say people want to take different connections.
 

bb21

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In case anyone is wondering, here is an example.
 

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Solent&Wessex

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Advance tickets may vary with operators with counted places (ie SWT/Southern)

It depends on what it says on the 'Route' if the route is '+Connections' or '+Conn' then you can take any train to maintain the connection onto your booked service ie. earlier train, different permitted route.

This applies even if you have a 'counted place' reservation or actual reservation on some services.

The restricted services will be on the route of the main ticket (in this case the Portsmouth to York portion route 'EC+CONN'). If it was restricted on the Portsmouth to Waterloo portion then the route would read 'EC+SWT'.

Interestingly the ticket would also be valid on the Southern service via Victoria as it is a permitted connection to your booked service (London to York)

Hope this makes sense

I'm not so sure about this. If you are travelling on a reservable service you must have a reservation for that service. If the service is unreservable then you could take an alternative connection. For example, if you have Edinburgh to Leeds Rte EC + connections, and have reservations on EC from EDB - YRK then on TPE from YRK - LDS you must go on that TPE service, and could not catch an alternative TPE or XC service as you would not hold a reservation for a reservable train. You may well be able to catch an unreservable Northern service though. In the OP's case SWT use the counted places system, and hence their services are reservable for the purposes of Advance tickets. Thus you would not be able to take an alternative connection as you would not hold a reservation. You also should remember that the conditions of Advance tickets state they are valid on "appropriate connecting trains", not any train ou fancy.



 

hairyhandedfool

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I'm not so sure about this. If you are travelling on a reservable service you must have a reservation for that service. If the service is unreservable then you could take an alternative connection........ Thus you would not be able to take an alternative connection as you would not hold a reservation. You also should remember that the conditions of Advance tickets state they are valid on "appropriate connecting trains", not any train ou fancy.

I believe the reference is to the terms of the ticket which say that if you have a ticket routed '& Connections' you can use any connecting service that is shown on the ticket or a valid travel itinerary. This makes no mention of having reserved places or not, but quite what is meant by 'a valid travel itinerary' is anyone's guess.
 

IanXC

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The issue of how reservations print when there are 2 or more passengers is one of the things we'll be using the information collected on this thread for. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1105661

Our working theory is that the booking site and/or the TVM determines how these are printed. Thanks in advance to those of you who can post details on the thread or PM me. Assuming there is some logic we will of course report back with our findings!
 
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I'm not so sure about this. If you are travelling on a reservable service you must have a reservation for that service. If the service is unreservable then you could take an alternative connection. For example, if you have Edinburgh to Leeds Rte EC + connections, and have reservations on EC from EDB - YRK then on TPE from YRK - LDS you must go on that TPE service, and could not catch an alternative TPE or XC service as you would not hold a reservation for a reservable train. You may well be able to catch an unreservable Northern service though. In the OP's case SWT use the counted places system, and hence their services are reservable for the purposes of Advance tickets. Thus you would not be able to take an alternative connection as you would not hold a reservation. You also should remember that the conditions of Advance tickets state they are valid on "appropriate connecting trains", not any train ou fancy.



Taken directly fromn 'The Manual' - Make of it what you will

Q23 - Can a passenger travel on a TOC X train if they are reserved on another TOC’s Advance dedicated ticket?
A: No. Dedicated tickets (=“TOC X only”) do exactly what they say on the ticket. However, during times of disruption, retail and on-train staff should use their discretion, as advised by their Control office.

Q24 - Can a passenger travel on a TOC X train if they are booked on another TOC’s Advance ticket e.g. “TOC Y & Connections”?
A: As a connecting TOC into the main TOC shown in the routeing on the ticket – yes.

As a replacement for the main TOC shown on the ticket - no. (However, during times of disruption, retail and on-train staff should use their discretion, as advised by their Control office).

Please note that “TOC & Connections” tickets are not the same as ‘dedicated’ tickets and should be treated differently. “TOC & Connections” simply means the majority of the journey should take place on the TOC shown plus any other local connections. Unfortunately not all Journey Planners understand the meaning of “the majority of”, and sometimes the ‘majority’ might be a relatively small portion. But it works both ways round as all TOCs are affected, and it all balances out. Do not penalise the passenger if the ticket issuing system gives them a journey where the “main” TOC has a relatively small portion, and please report any extreme examples found.

Q25 - Can a passenger with an Advance ticket travel on an earlier connecting train?
A: Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.

An exception that benefits passengers: Where East Coast is a connecting TOC from Stevenage via London and vice versa, e.g. “AP London-Reading”, or “VWC & Connections”, East Coast waives the need to travel on the exact East Coast train booked on this relatively short journey Stevenage ↔ Kings Cross, even though retail systems will force a reservation to be made.
 

34D

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Q25 - Can a passenger with an Advance ticket travel on an earlier connecting train?
A: Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.

This is of course ambiguous - does 'it' refer to the train that is originally reserved or suggested, or does 'it' refer to the proposed replacement change?

I think capedcrusader is reading this one way, and kvwr45 the other way - as always only a Court of Appeal judge can conclusively determine which interpretation is correct. UTCCR applies perhaps?
 

wintonian

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This is of course ambiguous - does 'it' refer to the train that is originally reserved or suggested, or does 'it' refer to the proposed replacement change?

I think capedcrusader is reading this one way, and kvwr45 the other way - as always only a Court of Appeal judge can conclusively determine which interpretation is correct. UTCCR applies perhaps?

I think we decided at some point that both the train on your itinerary and the train you wish to get must be unreservable.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Taken directly fromn 'The Manual' - Make of it what you will


Q25 - Can a passenger with an Advance ticket travel on an earlier connecting train?
A: Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.

An exception that benefits passengers: Where East Coast is a connecting TOC from Stevenage via London and vice versa, e.g. “AP London-Reading”, or “VWC & Connections”, East Coast waives the need to travel on the exact East Coast train booked on this relatively short journey Stevenage ↔ Kings Cross, even though retail systems will force a reservation to be made.

This is of course ambiguous - does 'it' refer to the train that is originally reserved or suggested, or does 'it' refer to the proposed replacement change?

I think capedcrusader is reading this one way, and kvwr45 the other way - as always only a Court of Appeal judge can conclusively determine which interpretation is correct. UTCCR applies perhaps?

I think it is quite clear. The OP wishes to catch an earlier connecting train from Portsmouth to London. Is it reservable? Yes, SWT use the counted places system. Thus, if the service is reservable the passenger cannot catch an alternative train.

Having said that, when I am checking tickets provided the passenger is on the "& Connections" leg of the journey on my train I am not fussed which train they are, as long it is vaguely relevant to the main (xx TOC & ...) part of the journey.
 

yorksrob

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Taken directly fromn 'The Manual' - Make of it what you will

Q25 - Can a passenger with an Advance ticket travel on an earlier connecting train?
A: Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.

Going off topic slightly,

When we were talking about breaking an advanced purchase journey in London on the forum a few weeks ago, the consensus seemed to be that this was not permitted (even though it was nigh on unenforceable anyway).

If this manual is the definative source of advice on these matters, doesn't Q25 contradict that conclusion ?
 
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