A question about evening off-peak travel restrictions.

[jednick]

I'll be vague about exact details with this question, so:

A = Home station

B = Station in large city

C = Station on suburbs of the same large city. To get there from home, I must change at B.

With an off-peak day return from A to B, I'm told I can't use that ticket to return home from station B in the evening peak, let's say between 4.30 and 6.30 pm.

I notice that, although being further away, a return from A to C costs exactly the same as a return from A to B.

I also notice that if I buy a return to station C, the off-peak evening restriction doesn't apply, despite having to change at B.

So, every time I want to travel from A to B, I simply buy an off-peak day return from A to C, but not actually visit C. This way, I don't have to worry about the evening restriction when travelling home from B.

This seems sound reasoning. Have other people thought of doing this? Also, why is a situation like this allowed to happen?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'll be vague about exact details with this question, so:

A = Home station

B = Station in large city

C = Station on suburbs of the same large city. To get there from home, I must change at B.

With an off-peak day return from A to B, I'm told I can't use that ticket to return home from station B in the evening peak, let's say between 4.30 and 6.30 pm.

I notice that, although being further away, a return from A to C costs exactly the same as a return from A to B.

I also notice that if I buy a return to station C, the off-peak evening restriction doesn't apply, despite having to change at B.

So, every time I want to travel from A to B, I simply buy an off-peak day return from A to C, but not actually visit C. This way, I don't have to worry about the evening restriction when travelling home from B.

This seems sound reasoning. Have other people though of doing this? Also, why is a situation like this allowed to happen?

This is certainly a noticeable issue in the Birmingham area (recognised what you're on about immediately ), and no doubt you're not the only one to notice it. Off-Peak Day Returns are almost entirely unregulated fares (other than some very unusual corner cases), so the relevant fare setter can set whichever restrictions they wish on the fare, including evening peak restrictions for some journeys but not others. TfWM have clearly done this intentionally, as the restriction code applying to travel to/from Birmingham stations explicitly says that passengers holding tickets for onwards travel are not subject to the evening peak restrictions. It's simply a case of intentional policy (of making travel from places that involve a change of train easier, or rather, encouraging passengers who are originating from Birmingham stations to avoid the busiest services), and it's permitted because it's not subject to any kind of regulation!

The evening peak restrictions are not particularly unreasonable in terms of their length, either, and in view of the typical evening peak crowding even towards the start or end of the official 'peak', I think it's eminently justifiable. Of course, that doesn't mean we're morally bound to take it as it is

 

[Intermodal]

To provide a second opinion this is certainly allowed as ForTheLoveOf states as long as the restriction codes 'add up' along with break of journey being permitted.

If you wish for me to review the exact tickets privately feel free to PM me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfWM have clearly done this intentionally, as the restriction code applying to travel to/from Birmingham stations explicitly says that passengers holding tickets for onwards travel are not subject to the evening peak restrictions

What is it about LM (as-was) and restriction text that can't be properly implemented electronically? The WCML restriction codes are like that - Super Off Peaks for instance have much more validity than the Journey Planners will show.

 

[yorkie]

I'll be vague about exact details with this question, so:

A = Home station

B = Station in large city

C = Station on suburbs of the same large city. To get there from home, I must change at B.

With an off-peak day return from A to B, I'm told I can't use that ticket to return home from station B in the evening peak, let's say between 4.30 and 6.30 pm.

I notice that, although being further away, a return from A to C costs exactly the same as a return from A to B.

I also notice that if I buy a return to station C, the off-peak evening restriction doesn't apply, despite having to change at B.

So, every time I want to travel from A to B, I simply buy an off-peak day return from A to C, but not actually visit C. This way, I don't have to worry about the evening restriction when travelling home from B.

This seems sound reasoning. Have other people thought of doing this? Also, why is a situation like this allowed to happen?

Yes this is absolutely normal.

In fact, we use an example in the Birmingham area at some of our fares workshops, especially the data workshops if we demonstrate clustering and overrides.

It is allowed to happen on non-regulated fares because they are not regulated so train companies are allowed to charge a premium to passengers who travel from popular locations such as Birmingham Stations, as the market will bear higher prices for such journeys.

It is not allowed to happen on regulated fares that were formerly known as 'Saver Singles/Returns' (now generally known as Off Peak Singles/Returns and retaining the traditional ticket code SVS/SVR) except in the London area, so a ticket such as Birmingham to Worcester SVR cannot ever be restricted in the evening peak, whereas the Off Peak Day Singe/Return (CDS/CDR) can be.

 

[jednick]

I see it all the time when I'm buying a ticket:

The person in front of me in the queue will ask for a day return and the person selling the ticket will say, "I have to make you aware that with this Off-peak Day Return ticket you can't return during the evening peak time".

Why can't the person in the ticket office tell them that they can get around the restriction by buying a ticket to a station slightly further away, and pay the same price?

Aren't they obligated to sell me the cheapest ticket if I ask them directly?

Also, what would happen if I suggested to the person buying the ticket that they can do this? How would the person in the ticket office react if I did?

I can imagine some poor soul having to wait two or three hours in the evening waiting at the station until 7pm for the return portion of their ticket to become valid again.

 

[Intermodal]

Why can't the person in the ticket office tell them that they can get around the restriction by buying a ticket to a station slightly further away, and pay the same price?

Ultimately the railway is a business and it is not in their interests to be selling far cheaper tickets of which a smaller share may go to the operating TOC. We are lucky that this 'flawed' or 'beneficial' (depending on your viewpoint) system exists. Perhaps we would be luckier if it was just simplified entirely - but then we may lose out on anomalies such as this.

Aren't they obligated to sell me the cheapest ticket if I ask them directly?

They are obligated to sell you the cheapest ticket for your journey as indicated when they put 'TO' and 'FROM' in their retail system plus taking into account any local training they may have had, for example group discounts or rover/ranger tickets that may be available. This question has been of some debate before on this forum but in my view it is unreasonable to expect the TOC to retail the absolute cheapest ticket in all circumstances under the current system. Most forum members will know that the cheapest way to complete a large number of long distance journeys is to use split-ticketing, such as that on trainsplit.com, but if you walk up to the ticket office in London they will not offer this service. Why? Their systems don't allow for it and they are not required to go this 'deep' into it.

Some members of staff may advise customers of this type of thing but the fact is that the majority of railway staff are not railway or ticketing enthusiasts and simply want to come in, do their job to the best of their ability and as required by their employer and then go home. Nothing wrong with that! The TOC does not train on these issues for business reasons so the staff won't know unless they go and do their own research.

Also, what would happen if I suggested to the person buying the ticket that they can do this? How would the person in the ticket office react if I did?

There's nothing they can do about it at all. How they react is pretty irrelevant. I suspect they would not be too fussed, to be honest. See above about just doing the job. There is a case to be made that if you shout and scream too much something would be done about it.

Ultimately your complaint should not be with the TOCs but with the imperfect system of ticket pricing and retailing we have in the UK. You cannot expect frontline staff to know every in and out of an extremely complex system (although they should know the fundamentals) and you cannot expect a company motivated by profit to advertise a loophole in their revenue generating capabilities which is out of their control. With that said, I could not make a better system.

I think tax evasion is a similar comparison. The law has many loopholes that allow you to pay less tax and politicians state they want taxes to be low for the majority. They do not, however, advertise the loopholes that allow people to pay less tax, despite them being widely known. The system is too complicated to close some of these loopholes - so you end up with this situation.

 

[jednick]

Ultimately the railway is a business and it is not in their interests to be selling far cheaper tickets of which a smaller share may go to the operating TOC. We are lucky that this 'flawed' or 'beneficial' (depending on your viewpoint) system exists. Perhaps we would be luckier if it was just simplified entirely - but then we may lose out on anomalies such as this.

They are obligated to sell you the cheapest ticket for your journey as indicated when they put 'TO' and 'FROM' in their retail system plus taking into account any local training they may have had, for example group discounts or rover/ranger tickets that may be available. This question has been of some debate before on this forum but in my view it is unreasonable to expect the TOC to retail the absolute cheapest ticket in all circumstances under the current system. Most forum members will know that the cheapest way to complete a large number of long distance journeys is to use split-ticketing, such as that on trainsplit.com, but if you walk up to the ticket office in London they will not offer this service. Why? Their systems don't allow for it and they are not required to go this 'deep' into it.

Some members of staff may advise customers of this type of thing but the fact is that the majority of railway staff are not railway or ticketing enthusiasts and simply want to come in, do their job to the best of their ability and as required by their employer and then go home. Nothing wrong with that! The TOC does not train on these issues for business reasons so the staff won't know unless they go and do their own research.


There's nothing they can do about it at all. How they react is pretty irrelevant. I suspect they would not be too fussed, to be honest. See above about just doing the job.

Ultimately your complaint should not be with the TOCs but with the imperfect system of ticket pricing and retailing we have in the UK. You cannot expect frontline staff to know every in and out of an extremely complex system (although they should know the fundamentals) and you cannot expect a company motivated by profit to advertise a loophole in their revenue generating capabilities. With that said, I could not make a better system.

Thanks for the reply, and for your private messages.

I know if I do this, I'm not going to over-complicate things by telling the ticket office staff what I'm doing.

But, just suppose, how do you think the ticket office staff might react if I walked in and said something like:

"I want a return from here to station B and I want to return during the evening peak. I should therefore buy an Anytime Day Return, but to be honest I want to save £3. So, please sell me an Off-peak Day Return from here to station C. I'm not actually going to C. But it'll save me £3".

If you were to actually say that to the station staff, in the worst case scenario, could they refuse to sell you the ticket?

 

[Intermodal]

If you were to actually say that to the station staff, in the worat case scenario, could they refuse to sell you the ticket?

The TOC (and therefore the TOC's staff) are obliged to sell you the ticket. They must offer the full range of UK rail tickets at their manned ticket offices. This is part of their retailing agreements.

This does not mean that some staff may in fact wrongly refuse to sell you the ticket as I have had happen before. In such cases I have written to the head office of the TOC or escalated to an on-site manager with success in each case. Staff will be generally aware that loopholes such as this exist but they may not be aware of each specific case that may be relevant for a particular journey. It will not be the first time they have seen something like this unless they are very new.

I realise your question a theoretical one but ultimately I would not recommend such an approach as it comes off as difficult and arrogant despite their obligation to sell the ticket. They (with few exceptions) are doing what they think is best and making the most of their training and when they get it wrong it is usually down to the TOC training them poorly rather than the staff member themselves (usually!). Personally I would be happy for your saving and wish you a nice day. It is not our money and at my TOC we are encouraged to remember that at all times and not create any sort of conflict unless absolutely necessary. Why would we make our lives more difficult?

A good course of action for the TOC staff to take in this case would be to sell the ticket and if they felt necessary submit a report indicating that they feel the fare structure should be reviewed. It is not within the discretion of ticket office staff to refuse to sell a valid ticket. The issue comes when they believe the ticket will be used to evade the proper fare - as your question may (in a noisy, loud, busy environment, with no prior knowledge of the applicable restriction codes) potentially allude to.

 

[Western Sunset]

Thanks for the reply, and for your private messages.

I know if I do this, I'm not going to over-complicate things by telling the ticket office staff what I'm doing.

But, just suppose, how do you think the ticket office staff might react if I walked in and said something like:

"I want a return from here to station B and I want to return during the evening peak. I should therefore buy an Anytime Day Return, but to be honest I want to save £3. So, please sell me an Off-peak Day Return from here to station C. I'm not actually going to C. But it'll save me £3".

If you were to actually say that to the station staff, in the worst case scenario, could they refuse to sell you the ticket?

Why do you want to wind-up the ticket office staff? You could always try it and see their reaction, if you feel you must.

 

[jednick]

The TOC (and therefore the TOC's staff) are obliged to sell you the ticket. They must offer the full range of UK rail tickets at their manned ticket offices. This is part of their retailing agreements.

This does not mean that some staff may in fact wrongly refuse to sell you the ticket as I have had happen before. In such cases I have written to the head office of the TOC or escalated to an on-site manager with success in each case. Staff will be generally aware that loopholes such as this exist but they may not be aware of each specific case that may be relevant for a particular journey. It will not be the first time they have seen something like this unless they are very new.

I realise your question a theoretical one but ultimately I would not recommend such an approach as it comes off as difficult and arrogant despite their obligation to sell the ticket. They (with few exceptions) are doing what they think is best and making the most of their training and when they get it wrong it is usually down to the TOC training them poorly rather than the staff member themselves (usually!). Personally I would be happy for your saving and wish you a nice day. It is not our money and at my TOC we are encouraged to remember that at all times and not create any sort of conflict unless absolutely necessary. Why would we make our lives more difficult?

A good course of action for the TOC staff to take in this case would be to sell the ticket and if they felt necessary submit a report indicating that they feel the fare structure should be reviewed. It is not within the discretion of ticket office staff to refuse to sell a valid ticket. The issue comes when they believe the ticket will be used to evade the proper fare - as your question may (in a noisy, loud, busy environment, with no prior knowledge of the applicable restriction codes) potentially allude to.

Very interesting.

I'd like to know, in the instance(s) where the staff wrongly refused to sell you a ticket, did you have to reluctantly buy a more expensive ticket, but you got a refund after you complained?

And also, did you take the name of the ticket office staff member when you reported the incidents?

I can imagine that, potentially, a heated argument could erupt if you knew you weren't in the wrong.

 

[RJ]

This seems sound reasoning. Have other people thought of doing this? Also, why is a situation like this allowed to happen?

It happens because fewer people make the longer distance trips and it would be unattractive if your day trip to London had to end by 3pm or else face getting home close to midnight.

Most people see the market rate offered and take it or leave it. It wouldn't cross their mind to do this sort of thing.

Some people have the value seeking trait and will put the effort in to understand this. They find out through word of mouth, or if a helpful rebellious rail employee tells them, or if they actually travel from the station further out and clock that returning in the peak is cheaper from there.

The railways use restriction codes to regulate the way tickets can be used, though they are notoriously hard to find and not widely known about or understood, even internally.

Virgin for example forbid people buying tickets from stations north/west of Lancaster, Flint and Welshpool inclusive from starting short in codes 3A, VK and VJ . In theory there is nothing to stop you getting an overdistance excess for the return portion, just don't expect Euston to sell it to you - go to a different station.

East Midlands Trains didn't like it when Off Peak tickets were used to circumvent the premium for Anytime fares in the AM and PM peaks and went down the road of nesting a restriction code within a restriction code to stop this.

Not sure if London Midland does anything to prevent this but I don't think the pricing necessarily warrants such tactics.

The trick is to find good value Anytime fares or Off Peak fares with favourable restriction codes.

 

[yorkie]

Very interesting.

I'd like to know, in the instance(s) where the staff wrongly refused to sell you a ticket, did you have to reluctantly buy a more expensive ticket, but you got a refund after you complained?

And also, did you take the name of the ticket office staff member when you reported the incidents?

I can imagine that, potentially, a heated arguement could erupt if you knew you weren't in the wrong.

The staff are obliged to sell the ticket(s) you ask for, unless there is clear evidence that you intend to use the tickets in a way that is not valid. It is absolutely valid to start or finish short on these Off Peak Day Return fares.

If you say you are going to Birmingham they are not obliged to offer a cheaper fare beyond Birmingham. In fact, it goes further than this: they are not allowed to, under impartial retailing rules.

If staff refuse to sell a ticket that would be valid for your journey, this is a breach of impartial retailing rules and puts their employer in breach of the Ticketing Settlement Agreement (TSA) as well as their franchise agreement (if they are a franchised TOC).

Rather than have a heated argument, the breach should be reported, and the company invited to settle the matter and provide assurances about how they will comply with impartial retailing rules in future.
,

 

[Intermodal]

I'd like to know, in the instance(s) where the staff wrongly refused to sell you a ticket, did you have to reluctantly buy a more expensive ticket, but you got a refund after you complained?

In one case the manager came and did agree to sell me the ticket. In another case I bought another more expensive ticket (but only by £5) and wrote to complain, and received a free trip voucher. Certainly that is a route you can go down if you are refused the option to purchase a valid ticket.

Regarding your discussions of arguments, I agree with yorkie above that this should be avoided at all costs and that it should be defused and settled with the TOC directly. Once again these staff members are just trying to do their job and get through the day. They are people and it is unnecessary to take it out on them.

 

[jednick]

Thanks for your input, everybody.

I found out this loophole last week when I was actually travelling to station C, and realised that there was no evening restriction with tickets to/from that station.

So, are ways of saving money considered "loopholes", not "cheats" ?

I suspect there are loads like this.

Also, if the TOCs were to find out we were publicising them, could/would they make attempts to stamp them out? Or, if they are legitimate loopholes, I suppose there's not much they can do about it. Just hope most people don't find out about them.

 

[RJ]

Thanks for your input, everybody.

I found out this loophole last week when I was actually travelling to station C, and realised that there was no evening restriction with tickets to/from that station.

So, are ways of saving money considered "loopholes", not "cheats" ?

I suspect there are loads like this.

Also, if the TOCs were to find out we were publicising them, could/would they make attempts to stamp them out? Or, if they are legitimate loopholes, I suppose there's not much they can do about it. Just hope most people don't find out about them.

You can call it a loophole, it is perfectly legal if there's no restriction forbidding it. I gave some examples of what TOCs do to stop this sort of thing - in the EMT case only one person was doing that before they put a stop to it. From personal experience it's very much like a game of cat and mouse - the TOCs and the RDG love closing loopholes that serial value takers find and use. They pick up on things posted online and fed back to them from front line staff.

 

[Intermodal]

So, are ways of saving money considered "loopholes", not "cheats" ?

I suspect there are loads like this.

Also, if the TOCs were to find out we were publicising them, could/would they make attempts to stamp them out? Or, if they are legitimate loopholes, I suppose there's not much they can do about it. Just hope most people don't find out about them.

They are loopholes. They are entirely permitted. In some cases the TOC is aware of them and they cannot do anything about it, at least not easily. In other cases the TOC is not aware of them and may remove them if possible.

There are indeed lots like this however there are less than there was 5 or 10 years ago.

Yes, if you publicise them too much then they will do everything in their power as a business to maintain their maximum revenue input and therefore reduce the availability of these loopholes.

I suggest you may enjoy attending a RailUK Fares Workshop which discusses matters such as this.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Also, if the TOCs were to find out we were publicising them, could/would they make attempts to stamp them out? Or, if they are legitimate loopholes, I suppose there's not much they can do about it. Just hope most people don't find out about them.

They can't alter regulated fares and their conditions - so in this case, I can't see what they would be able to do.

They can and do however close some that come to light that are, politely put, tenuous in the first place

 

[jednick]

A further question would be this:

In my example as quoted in my opening comment, it costs me exactly the same to travel to station C as it does to station B. This is despite station C being further than station B.

In fact, I could name maybe 15 or 20 stations that are further away from me than station B, yet the price is the same. Some of those stations are an extra 5, 6, or 7 miles further away.

Why is this? I would have thought it would cost more to travel further

 

[tiptoptaff]

A further question would be this:

In my example as quoted in my opening comment, it costs me exactly the same to travel to station C as it does to station B. This is despite station C being further than station B.

In fact, I could name maybe 15 or 20 stations that are further away from me than station B, yet the price is the same. Some of those stations are an extra 5, 6, or 7 miles further away.

Why is this? I would have thought it would cost more to travel further

All to do with fare grouping.

The UK doesn't use distance based pricing - in Japan for example (or at least, the areas I've travelled) each station further out costs more

 

[A Challenge]

it is because of 'fare clustering' - simply put that it is much simpler to not have to set every individual fare, for example the fare from Penzance to Wick is the same price (ANYTIME SINGLE £266.00 on route ✠VIA LONDON) as the fares from a long list of 20 origins, including St Columb Road (on the Newquay line) and St Ives, to a long list of 25 destinations, including Kyle of Lochalsh and Ardgay (which is on the Far North Line <100 miles south of Wick).

 

[Meole]

A day journey that I occasionally for work make is cheapest by a day rover ticket which has no restriction, sometimes I join the train at a station with a private agent who put me onto it originally, buying on the train is more difficult and the conductor never offers it and some try to deny it, it is also slightly annoying to hear other customers paying for their journey station to station on the train when the rover would be cheaper.

 

[PeterY]

If I'm out and about in London, I travel for leisure, I always buy an off peak ticket and if necessary come back to Hemel Hempstead via West Brompton. No evening peak restriction.
Me and my friend always refer to the evening peaks as the "curfew" . The first off peak train from Euston, after the curfew is always rammed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I'm out and about in London, I travel for leisure, I always buy an off peak ticket and if necessary come back to Hemel Hempstead via West Brompton. No evening peak restriction.
Me and my friend always refer to the evening peaks as the "curfew" . The first off peak train from Euston, after the curfew is always rammed.

This specific one will change in January as there is going to be a move to 3 tiers of pricing on the south WCML - Anytime, Off Peak (morning but no evening restrictions) and Super Off Peak (stricter morning plus evening restrictions).

FWIW this is yet another ex-LM Off Peak with an error in the restriction. The text reads:

OUTWARD TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
arrive at London Terminals or
Kensington Olympia after 04:29
and before 10:00.

RETURN TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
depart from London Terminals
before 09:15 and after 16:49
and before 19:01

And yet in the restriction data we have:

Not valid to depart KENSINGTON (OLYMPIA) 1645–1900 on any TOC

Oops. Of course even if this was correct it would only restrict boarding there and not anywhere else.

 

[Meole]

Its aiways been fun travelling back on a peak train out of Euston announced as no off peak permitted when that only applied to Brum and not further on, argument at the barrier quite common, most conductors better informed but not all. I do wonder if some who could travel are scared off by the announcement.

 

[robbeech]

Its aiways been fun travelling back on a peak train out of Euston announced as no off peak permitted when that only applied to Brum and not further on, argument at the barrier quite common, most conductors better informed but not all. I do wonder if some who could travel are scared off by the announcement.

Scared off maybe, confused probably, denied access by poorly trained staff quite possibly.