A rant about Class 222's

[Yew]

However, of you look at a comparable journey on east coast or virgin, the firs class is much cheaper. The refreshments on weekdays are tea, coffee, water, and biscuits. That's fine for a toc that has such short intercity times.


I agree that emt should have installed some airline seats, but usually it complaining about not enough tables, not this way around

The food on the all day menu is excellent, and even with the price of it included, it is still cheaper than other toc's. And there is none of this 'it's complimentary so you can't complain of you don't get it' stuff. And also you aren't paying for food if you don't want it

Would you like them more if they where painted in virgin red?

 

[All Line Rover]

However, of you look at a comparable journey on east coast or virgin, the firs class is much cheaper. The refreshments on weekdays are tea, coffee, water, and biscuits. That's fine for a toc that has such short intercity times.

Over 2 hours is short!?

Would you like them more if they where painted in virgin red?

Not unless they changed the interior and introduced more food.

 

[trentside]

Over 2 hours is short!?

Yes, in the grand scheme of things it isn't a long inter-city journey.

I know lots of people think the offering from EMT isn't great, but really, for the length of journeys over the MML I think a cup of coffee is ok.

 

[Lampshade]

Airline style first class seats? Why would you want such a thing? hock:

 

[Yew]

Two hours is short compared to London Edinburgh on ec or vt

I've covered the issue of free food, I agree maybe some crisps and chocolate could improve the normal offering, (especially at weekends) but full meals and sandwiches aren't really an issue And the all day menu is delicious, my only problems with the ploughmans platter was the cheese (it's red Leicester, I would have preferred cheddar or Stilton. But it is an east midlands ploughmans isn't it). And the bread would have been better sliced, instead of in chunks.

 

[90019]

I travelled in first class once.
I had to share a table with a stranger, I should be compensated for this injustice!!

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I've found 'Meridians' to be quite nice units. And I was in standard class!

 

[NSE]

I really don't agree with your comments about the heat or the seating. These are personal opinions, I liked the seating in EMT 222 first class. I don't think it's possible to design a seat everyone likes. I mean think logically, everyone wants different things, some squashy, some hard. Its all personal. Same with heat, I get hot and sweaty easily, so if I have run for my train, chances are I'll arrive hot and sweaty, even in winter so I'll want the window open/air con on. I also understand the person opposite me may be much thinner, been waiting on the platform and thereforew very cold, and so they want the heating on.
This has nothing to do with EMT or any other Toc. I can't at all see how those are both constructive points to criticise a new refurb.

 

[WestCoast]

I've always liked the 222s, the standard class seems to be of a reasonably high standard, much more comfortable than the oppressive conditions on a Pendolino or Voyager.

First class on 390s is often rather quiet off-peak and hence you do get more room to stretch out, but in standard class it's a very different story!

So now I have to share a table (of 2!) on a SUPER OFF PEAK service with someone else - wonderful! :roll:

Just because you are travelling off-peak doesn't mean you should expect to secure a table for yourself (or an airline seat for that matter). That may be the case on Virgin, where there is an oversupply of first class accommodation off-peak on certain routes, but not on EMT.

Finally, there is no "proper" complimentary food."

In my opinion, the key to good catering is that it is high quality and not necessarily complimentary in first class, so that it can also be offered to standard class passengers.

Over 2 hours is short!?

It's a reasonably short journey, yes. I undertake longer journeys on Pacers.

 

[Hydro]

Yours,

Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells.

 

[shedman]

I might be missing something here but isn't it good bussiness sense for EMT to run trains around full by having a largest quota of cheaper tickets off peak than carry fresh air. It might only be £2 but if 20 spend £2 that's £40 more than nothing and some of these passengers might buy a meal etc while on the train generating more income. So having to share a table with someone might be a bit of a bummer but put yourself in a companies position. Also I remember my 222 training and I'm sure something was said that 1st class passengers were asked about what they would like from a train and table seats was up there.

 

[YorkshireBear]

This is a serious point, and one which doesn't seem to be getting addressed any time soon (given how few seven coach 222s there are, and how few HSTs you see in Sheffield).

Whilst we have two/hour to London (unlike Liverpool which only gets one), I still think that the capacity from Sheffield to the capital isn't that great (compared to most other cities a similar distance away).

Yes i agree completely, we usually do on sheffield as it is woefully served for a city of its size. To be fair it is usually a 7/10 car and a 5 car an hour never seen it as two 5 cars per hour. No aspirations for rail in south yorkshire or indeed public trasnport in south yorkshire and it is quite depressing.

 

[tbtc]

Where have I said that I dislike 222's because of having to sit next to someone else? The fact that First Class is packed (during the Off-Peak when there is no disruption), that there are no airline style seats, that loads of seats do not align with the windows, that the seats are not very comfortable, that there are very limited refreshments, and that the heating is constantly on (I have just noticed this) even though it is a warm day - causing me to sweat - contributes to a very poor overall experience, which is worse than Standard Class on many other TOC's

...you still don't see any irony in complaining that a service is busy whilst benefitting from a £2 ticket?

No, just me then...

 

[All Line Rover]

...you still don't see any irony in complaining that a service is busy whilst benefitting from a £2 ticket?

No, just me then...

No, I don't, because I was travelling on a "special" ticket just to see what EMT is like, and will base my opinions on what I would normally pay. At £24 for EMT and £34.50 for VT (for similar distance journeys), I consider Virgin to be much better value. (Even though I don't usually travel First Class with VT to/from London anyway as I consider the sandwich to be very expensive! Standard Class is fine most of the time.)

 

[HSTEd]

I remember the time when I travelled to Nottingham for a friends 21st from Manchester via London to try out EMTs london services and to avoid the dreaded Liverpool-Norwich, drew a HST unfortunately, and it was slow as anything, although first class was empty.

I should have walked across the road to King's Cross and changed at Grantham.

But oh well.

 

[tbtc]

No, I don't, because I was travelling on a "special" ticket just to see what EMT is like, and will base my opinions on what I would normally pay. At £24 for EMT and £34.50 for VT (for similar distance journeys), I consider Virgin to be much better value. (Even though I don't usually travel First Class with VT to/from London anyway as I consider the sandwich to be very expensive! Standard Class is fine most of the time.)

But surely you can understand that First Class (on a day when they are flogging £2 tickets) is going to be a lot busier than First Class (on a day when everyone pays full price). So complaining that the service was busy is hardly any guide to a "normal" day...

 

[CosherB]

222's

(several times).

I have to ask....

222's what?

 

[90019]

Although they're not long enough, at least the 158s (and I presume other members of the Desiro family) have been thought through.

Eh? :?

 

[Hyphen]

Eh? :?

Oops! 185s

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Oops! 185s

Quite a debatable statement.

 

[WestCoast]

Yep, the Voyager family certainly sucks arse.

I try to avoid CrossCountry, EMT and Virgin services on Voyagers where possible. Truly, truly awful trains.

Although they're not long enough, at least the 158s (and I presume other members of the Desiro family) have been thought through.

222s are Meridians and have completely different interiors (better seating, colour schemes, luggage storage, no smells e.t.c) to Virgin/CrossCountry Voyagers. The problems of the Voyagers were ironed out with these trains. Personally, I think they are much better than Voyagers, Pendos and more suitable than 185s for InterCity services.

 

[bb21]

Well, where do I start .

I don't understand why sheffield has less carriges.

It's normally only the xx47 departures leaving Platform 7 that is a 5-car unit. Unfortunately that is all that platform can take and even then not the whole train fits. The xx27 departures are mainly formed of 7-car units and HSTs. EMT might want to run longer trains there, yet they're constrained by what they're allowed to do.

I just don't why you'd even mention it. Fair enough, if you paid for First Class and had to stand, but...

Me neither.

I will soon be travelling on SE High Speed, which I also prefer.

You do realise that they do not convey First Class accommodation, don't you?

Yes, an obvious one. Could EMT please install airline style seats in First Class.

Em, no, thank you.

The fact that First Class is packed (during the Off-Peak when there is no disruption)

So EMT should be forced to convey fresh air around just so that all First Class passengers can have a table to himself/herself?

I have paid £2 because I am on a promotional ticket

... which means that you have been ripped off, my friend. I paid 55p from Leicester to London in First Class so proportionally speaking you should have paid no more than £1 to class it as a good deal.

The food on the all day menu is excellent, and even with the price of it included, it is still cheaper than other toc's.

I agree that they are very good value for the price charged.

I really don't agree with your comments about the heat or the seating. These are personal opinions, I liked the seating in EMT 222 first class. I don't think it's possible to design a seat everyone likes. I mean think logically, everyone wants different things, some squashy, some hard. Its all personal. Same with heat, I get hot and sweaty easily, so if I have run for my train, chances are I'll arrive hot and sweaty, even in winter so I'll want the window open/air con on. I also understand the person opposite me may be much thinner, been waiting on the platform and thereforew very cold, and so they want the heating on.
This has nothing to do with EMT or any other Toc. I can't at all see how those are both constructive points to criticise a new refurb.

Precisely.

 

[Hyphen]

222s are Meridians and have completely different interiors (better seating, colour schemes, luggage storage, no smells e.t.c) to Virgin/CrossCountry Voyagers. The problems of the Voyagers were ironed out with these trains. Personally, I think they are much better than Voyagers, Pendos and more suitable than 185s for InterCity services.

Better seating?! Whilst the Voyager already does my back in, the Meridian is even worse! 185s are relatively kind on my back.

Colour schemes I'll give you, but the luggage is worse - since XC did away with the buffet there's a lot more luggage space.

No smells isn't true - it's just as bad as the Voyagers, though at least they were sensible enough to realise that not every WC needed to be a disabled style area.

If anything, the area the Meridians actually prove worse on is the lighting. 222s are positively dark in comparison to just about every other train. This is incredibly noticeable at night.

 

[BrummyBoy]

Yes, an obvious one. Could EMT please install airline style seats in First Class.

They could but then people would sit next to you.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Well, where do I start .



It's normally only the xx47 departures leaving Platform 7 that is a 5-car unit. Unfortunately that is all that platform can take and even then not the whole train fits. The xx27 departures are mainly formed of 7-car units and HSTs. EMT might want to run longer trains there, yet they're constrained by what they're allowed to do.

Oh i understand that, i just generally think sheffield is not well off for a city of its size. I know the station and the surrounding infrastructure dont exactly allow for it. Without spending big money uneconomically.

 

[All Line Rover]

222s are Meridians and have completely different interiors (better seating, colour schemes, luggage storage, no smells e.t.c) to Virgin/CrossCountry Voyagers. The problems of the Voyagers were ironed out with these trains. Personally, I think they are much better than Voyagers, Pendos and more suitable than 185s for InterCity services.

I find no significant difference in comfort between the First Class seating on Meridians and Voyagers, although I have a slight preference for the Voyagers. Both are "adequate."

I don't find the colour scheme on EMT to be better than the Voyagers either. Does anyone really care about the colour scheme? Providing it's not garish bright colours then I'm happy! The carpet, though, leaves something to be desired......

There may be more luggage space for large items (even though that is debatable when compared to XC Voyagers) but since I am now accustomed to travelling with a mini suitcase, there is DEFINITELY less space for them. I traveled on a VT Voyager on the way back to Crewe and my suitcase fit comfortably in the overhead luggage rack (unlike on EMT).

And finally, I completely disagree with your last point. There was a definite aroma in the vestibule in Coach G. One that wasn't pleasant!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They could but then people would sit next to you.

1+2 seating. The left for busy trains, the right for quiet ones.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But surely you can understand that First Class (on a day when they are flogging £2 tickets) is going to be a lot busier than First Class (on a day when everyone pays full price). So complaining that the service was busy is hardly any guide to a "normal" day...

That's a fair point. But the last time I traveled with EMT (a few months ago before the refurb), First Class was still packed and there wasn't a sale on! The fact that the cheapest First Advance fare is less than 1.5x the cheapest Standard Advance fare makes First Class significantly busier (almost as busy as Standard Class). On Virgin, the cheapest First Advance fare is 3x the cheapest Standard Advance fare, but is still a reasonable price. (The cheapest Standard Advance fare on Virgin is cheaper than the cheapest Standard Advance fare on EMT.)

Having to fight for legroom with the person opposite, being in a busy (and therefore) noisy carriage - as well as a hot one - in a seat that has no window view, as well as having extremely limited refreshments, in a carriage which is supposed to be FIRST CLASS (!), well, I might as well be in the Standard Class Quiet Coach on Virgin, might'n I? And bring my own food? I don't understand how EMT expect people to work in such an environment.

 

[Yew]

I think you're mistaking first class for buisness class...

 

[All Line Rover]

It's normally only the xx47 departures leaving Platform 7 that is a 5-car unit. Unfortunately that is all that platform can take and even then not the whole train fits. The xx27 departures are mainly formed of 7-car units and HSTs. EMT might want to run longer trains there, yet they're constrained by what they're allowed to do.

That's very useful information, thank you.

You do realise that they do not convey First Class accommodation, don't you?

Yes, but I find the accommodation to be of an excellent standard, with plenty of seats available during the Off-Peak (most of which line up with the windows!).

Em, no, thank you.

Why not? I don't mean that EMT should replace all of the seats with airline style seating, but to have a few would be nice (like on Virgin in Coach K). There is still plenty of space to spread out - much more than in Standard Class.

So EMT should be forced to convey fresh air around just so that all First Class passengers can have a table to himself/herself?

No, of course not. I would have a table to myself if they just installed some airline style seats (that line up with the windows)!

I agree that they are very good value for the price charged.

I do not consider £4.99 for a dish of mediocre quality to be "very good value" when I can get a Meal Deal from Sainsbury's (which includes a drink) for just £2.99, or some "fine dining" cheese and crackers from Waitrose for less than £5.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you're mistaking first class for buisness class...

There isn't Business Class on trains. I know that a significant proportion of First Class revenue comes from leisure travelers (such as myself - most of the time), but a lot of First Class revenue still comes from business travelers.

Furthermore, First Class is supposed to be even better than Business Class!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's a reasonably short journey, yes. I undertake longer journeys on Pacers.

I am surprised that people consider a journey of over 2 hours to be "short" when Virgin offer a much enhanced service on journeys of a similar, if not shorter, length between Liverpool/Manchester/Preston/Birmingham and London.

 

[Jordeh]

I do not consider £4.99 for a dish of mediocre quality to be "very good value" when I can get a Meal Deal from Sainsbury's (which includes a drink) for just £2.99, or some "fine dining" cheese and crackers from Waitrose for less than £5.

You obviously don't get the convenience of purchasing on the train though when you purchase it from Sainsbury. It's ridiculous economics to expect the prices of food on trains to be able to compete with supermarkets.

I am surprised that people consider a journey of over 2 hours to be "short" when Virgin offer a much enhanced service on journeys of a similar, if not shorter, length between Liverpool/Manchester/Preston/Birmingham and London.

Regardless of this, journeys of 2 hours or so really don't need much in the way of catering.

I don't find the colour scheme on EMT to be better than the Voyagers either. Does anyone really care about the colour scheme? Providing it's not garish bright colours then I'm happy!

The carpet, though, leaves something to be desired......

That certainly doesn't add up and to me summarises your seemingly one-man debate in this thread, pedantic and unnecessary.

 

[YorkshireBear]

jordeh beat me to that, you complained about the colour scheme in your first post with the white spots... so obviously you care abou thte colour scheme.