A rant about Class 222's

[All Line Rover]

That certainly doesn't add up and to me summarises your seemingly one-man debate in this thread, pedantic and unnecessary.

You wouldn't put spots all over the wall, so why put big ones all over the carpet? It's as if EMT are trying to make any real dirt "blend in."

Perhaps I am a pendantic person (and that's not necessarily a bad thing when it comes to paying attention to detail), but my general experience with rail travel is that it is most relaxing and enjoyable - not so in this case.

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jordeh beat me to that, you complained about the colour scheme in your first post with the white spots... so obviously you care abou thte colour scheme.

I've never considered carpet to be part of a "colour scheme," but perhaps some people on here would be quick to correct me.

 

[WestCoast]

T
There isn't Business Class on trains. I know that a significant proportion of First Class revenue comes from leisure travelers (such as myself - most of the time), but a lot of First Class revenue still comes from business travelers.

Furthermore, First Class is supposed to be even better than Business Class!

Chiltern Business Zone?

In railway terms it's either first or standard class, which derives from the old terms 1st class, 2nd class and 3rd class, nothing else.

Premium economy, business class and first class are all classes of airline cabin (although not all are available on every long-haul flight, or with every airline). I'd say the best rail first class in the country does not come anywhere near to first class on most airlines.

As you know, the standard of the accommodation and service varies between TOCs and this is even stated quite clearly in some National Rail literature.

I am surprised that people consider a journey of over 2 hours to be "short" when Virgin offer a much enhanced service on journeys of a similar, if not shorter, length between Liverpool/Manchester/Preston/Birmingham and London.

That's irrelevant in the bigger picture. They are offering 'enhanced service' as part of their business plan to attract first class passengers to their services, when they could just as easily choose standard class for a journey of that length. It doesn't detract from the fact that you can spend 2 hours on a Regional train and not get very far.
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I've never considered carpet to be part of a "colour scheme," but perhaps some people on here would be quick to correct me.

The interior colour scheme would involve the colour of the carpet, yes. It's surprising how much the interior colours actually affect the 'mood' of the train, those who dismiss it as unimportant don't necessarily realise that. Think of the difference between an XC HST and an FGW one, it's quite a difference IMHO.

I don't find Virgin's interior very pleasant in this regard either.

 

[The Crab]

I remember when travel could be really comfortable. Give me a newly refurbished Mk1 First Open any day! The leg-room, the deep upholstery, the thick carpet, opening windows, individual heating control, the solid and safe feel, all windows line up, no announcements .... Only 32 people per carriage?

No air-con, usually limited to 90mph, slightly less safe but I could quite happily stay in one all day whereas I start to sqirm a bit after an hour or so on a Voyager or whatever.

 

[trentside]

That's a fair point. But the last time I traveled with EMT (a few months ago before the refurb), First Class was still packed and there wasn't a sale on! The fact that the cheapest First Advance fare is less than 1.5x the cheapest Standard Advance fare makes First Class significantly busier (almost as busy as Standard Class). On Virgin, the cheapest First Advance fare is 3x the cheapest Standard Advance fare, but is still a reasonable price. (The cheapest Standard Advance fare on Virgin is cheaper than the cheapest Standard Advance fare on EMT.)

Having to fight for legroom with the person opposite, being in a busy (and therefore) noisy carriage - as well as a hot one - in a seat that has no window view, as well as having extremely limited refreshments, in a carriage which is supposed to be FIRST CLASS (!), well, I might as well be in the Standard Class Quiet Coach on Virgin, might'n I? And bring my own food? I don't understand how EMT expect people to work in such an environment.

So you're saying you think 1st Advance fares on EMT should be substantially increased to keep the 'riff-raff' (quoting Basil Fawlty) out of First Class? At the same time, EMT should introduce complimentary food for the now empty FC carriage.

Be grateful the carriage you were in wasn't declassified (it's happened to me on EMT before) as if FC was busy, standard would have been packed.

 

[All Line Rover]

Chiltern Business Zone?

Oh yeah, sure!

I don't find Virgin's interior very pleasant in this regard either.

That is very subjective, though. I quite like the Virgin colour scheme - sitting in the Quiet Zone when facing towards the loo and travelling forwards feels a bit like a rocket!

The EMT colour scheme isn't bad, either (except the carpet), but I don't think it's much better than the colour scheme on most other TOC's.

 

[WestCoast]

That is very subjective, though. I quite like the Virgin colour scheme - sitting in the Quiet Zone when facing towards the loo and travelling forwards feels a bit like a rocket!

I find the vestibules horrible to stand in, when you can't find a seat on a packed London - Glasgow service! The 'spaceship' bright blue and grey just isn't a nice place to linger IMHO.

 

[All Line Rover]

So you're saying you think 1st Advance fares on EMT should be substantially increased to keep the 'riff-raff' (quoting Basil Fawlty) out of First Class? At the same time, EMT should introduce complimentary food for the now empty FC carriage.

Be grateful the carriage you were in wasn't declassified (it's happened to me on EMT before) as if FC was busy, standard would have been packed.

Just to give you some statistics...

London to Sheffield (EMT):
Cheapest Standard Class: £13
Cheapest First Class: £19

London to Manchester (VT):
Cheapest Standard Class: £11.50
Cheapest First Class: £34.50

Now in all honesty, if it only cost you £6 extra to go First Class (£4 extra if you had a Railcard) - less than 1.5x the price of Standard Class - wouldn't you upgrade? I imagine most people - except those with a Family Railcard - would.

First Class on EMT is almost always 1.5x the price of Standard Class during the Off-Peak. Sheffield to London fares in the mid-morning are £16 Standard Class, £24 First Class. The high price of Standard Class and low price of First Class doesn't help in keeping First Class reasonably quiet.

On Virgin, the difference is larger (and, I'll point out, Standard Class is cheaper!), so people who want to save a few pennies will travel in Standard Class. Many people want to save a few pennies (), so First Class will be quieter.

In my opinion, First Class on EMT during the Off-Peak is not First Class at all. It's Standard Premium!

 

[WestCoast]

In my opinion, First Class on EMT during the Off-Peak is not First Class at all. It's Standard Premium!

First class on many networks around the world just means a larger, more comfortable seat (again subjective) and that also includes some TOCs in the UK. It often doesn't mean 'free' (ahem) food and drinks.

 

[Hydro]

First Class on SouthEastern means a different seat colour.

I can't help but get a little feel of snobbishness from this thread.

 

[All Line Rover]

First Class on SouthEastern means a different seat colour.

I can't help but get a little feel of snobbishness from this thread.

There is a difference between "snobbishness," and wanting to have peace and quiet with space to spread out and decent refreshments (rather than just an Eat Natural Bar), along with the nagging feeling of: "Why don't I just travel in Standard Class?"

On a train with 192 Standard Class seats and 50 First Class seats, it just doesn't make sense to price First Class at 1.5x the price of Standard Class.

XC go to one extreme (pricing First Class too high in relation to Standard) whereas EMT go to the other extreme (pricing First Class too low in relation to Standard).

 

[SouthEastern-465]

First Class on SouthEastern means a different seat colour.

I can't help but get a little feel of snobbishness from this thread.

First Class on SouthEastern means a little cloth on the head rest and that's about it...

 

[All Line Rover]

First class on many networks around the world just means a larger, more comfortable seat (again subjective) and that also includes some TOCs in the UK. It often doesn't mean 'free' (ahem) food and drinks.

I'm not "begging" for free food and drink, but to provide a *mini* Eat Natural Bar, an inedible ginger biscuit, and just juice and water for those who don't drink tea/coffee seems a bit stingy.
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First Class on SouthEastern means a little cloth on the head rest and that's about it...

Mmm, I know. It was so embarrassing!

At least I was travelling on an ALR.

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I'm not "begging" for free food and drink, but to provide a *mini* Eat Natural Bar, an inedible ginger biscuit, and just juice and water for those who don't drink tea/coffee seems a bit stingy.
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Mmm, I know. It was so embarrassing!

At least I was travelling on an ALR.

I'm totally not a snobby person, but I feel SE have a crap first class service I'd never dream of paying extra for. I remember I got a declassified Class 465/9 turn up on a Gravesend service had the whole coach to myself and when I sat in first class I was like "is this it?"

Class 222s as I said are quite nice, even in standard they I thought were nice!

 

[Hydro]

There is a difference between "snobbishness," and wanting to have peace and quiet with space to spread out and decent refreshments (rather than just an Eat Natural Bar), along with the nagging feeling of: "Why don't I just travel in Standard Class?"
.

Brian Potter said it best, "I wanna moonwalk son, but life's a sh*thouse".

The service isn't inadequate, it's not extortionately priced, it just doesn't live up to your standards. Be glad you found out whilst travelling on a £2 ticket, so you can "blacklist" EMT for future reference.

SET's First Class sections should actually be withdrawn. They are utterly, utterly pointless.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not "begging" for free food and drink, but to provide a *mini* Eat Natural Bar, an inedible ginger biscuit, and just juice and water for those who don't drink tea/coffee seems a bit stingy.

So, £19 for a First Class ticket plus maybe £10 for food/drink if the customer wants it is "stingy", but Virgin charging £34 including free food & drink isn't "stingy" even though Virgin are charging more, whether you want/like the food or not?

 

[All Line Rover]

So, £19 for a First Class ticket plus maybe £10 for food/drink if the customer wants it is "stingy", but Virgin charging £34 including free food & drink isn't "stingy" even though Virgin are charging more, whether you want/like the food or not?

During Mon-Thu, the £19 EMT fare is (to the best of my knowledge) only available on a very late evening (and slow!) departure from London - the [22:25], arriving at Sheffield at [01:32]. The cheapest First Class fare available during hours when people are actually awake is £24. (The cheapest Standard Class fare during this time is £16.)

At £11.50 for Standard Class fares, Virgin are a clear winner. That's £9 cheaper for a return journey. And at £34.50 for a First Class fare, I believe that this represents reasonable value. (Yes, it is triple the price of Virgin's Standard Class, but at the same time it's only £10 more than EMT's First Class). There are airline style seats, much more space, more First Class hosts, quieter carriages, PROPER First Class lounges and decent refreshments. In my opinion, if you want to travel First Class, it's definitely worth an extra £10.

Before everyone starts pointing out that First Class is dead on Virgin during Off-Peak hours, yes, I agree, but I disagree that the reason is because First Class is too expensive. The reason is that 3tph is far too much during the Off-Peak!

 

[NSE]

I really don't understand this notion of complaining first class was busy. Yes if tickets were £2 and plenty of people snapped up the offer, then yeah I can see why its busy, but why does going into First Class automatically garuntee you a whole carriage to yourself? In your case chances are this chap opposite you may well have paid a walk up fare so, I really don't see your argument, its just confusing.

 

[Yew]

There isn't Business Class on trains. I know that a significant proportion of First Class revenue comes from leisure travelers (such as myself - most of the time), but a lot of First Class revenue still comes from business travelers.

Furthermore, First Class is supposed to be even better than Business Class!

Personally I think that the meridians feel more buisinessy than EMT's HST's The meridian tables of 4 feel like somewhere you could have a meeting, which high backs, and the interesting arm rests. whereas on a HST it feels more like a lounge, somewhere that you could smoke a pipe in.

I think that if we needed some more LDPE stock, an electrified meridian (possibly tilt enabled) wouldnt be a bad start. (and if they decided to take the engines out, and put them into some sort of Locomotive Power unit at either end of the train, then even better..

 

[Blindtraveler]

i 2 must defend the 222s - they are everything (other than tilt capable) virging promised voyagers would be, and arnt. My milage on them is tiny but that aside I would give my rite ear (a big thing to me as the eyes dont work) for some of these to run up here!

 

[142094]

I prefer the Meridians over XC's Voyagers, but still they do not come close to a HST or 225.