AAA Emerson Park

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by PavlosA, 9 Nov 2011.

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  1. PavlosA

    PavlosA Member

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    Hi

    I'm trying to buy an annual season ticket for a colleague. They normally purchase Gidea Park to London, but I'm being given the option of a ticket with AAA Emerson Park for the same price.

    Am I right in thinking this means the ticket would give access to the Upminster c2c line into Fenchurch Street/Liverpool Street, as well as the NXEA line into Liverpool Street? Seems strange for the same price to give quite a few more options...

    Thanks!
     
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  3. PavlosA

    PavlosA Member

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    Thanks very much. Not sure why I'm being told different by trainline...
     
  4. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I would take much of the advice from thesheepline with a pinch of salt.

    What are you doing using them anyway? You will be much better off ringing the TOC concerned, in your case, NXEA.
     
  5. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    For clarification, does "AAA" mean simply that the ticket is valid at the "AAA" station, but that the "main" route is defined by the two stations shown as "Between:"?

    Emerson Park-London is valid via either Romford or Upminster - but an Emerson Park-London AAA Gidea Park Season does not seem to be available (possibly for this reason). A Z1-6 Travelcard would be appropriate if this is needed; it's not much more expensive and possibly better value.

    How does this work where the "AAA" ticket covers unconnected two stations on different routes - from memory I think Seasons from Farnborough have such an example.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    NXEA don't determine the routeing validity of that ticket - and using it via Upminster you'd be travelling with c2c who may (reasonably) claim it's not valid. ATOC could give a definitive answer, and National Rail Enquiries is their customer-facing branch.
     
  6. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Farnborough Stations - London Terminals seasons can be AAA at Frimley, Aldershot, Camberley, Ash Vale and Farnham iirc.

    I wonder if NRE's India-based call centre would be able to tell me much. Writing to them will take longer for a response but might ultimately be more preferred.
     
  7. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Definitely. A phone call even to the TOC concerned holds about as much weight as "this bloke on the platform told me..." in the event of you getting duff advice.
     
  8. island

    island Established Member

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    You can solve that by never using thetrainline, as it's always more expensive than buying a ticket directly from a TOC, or from redspottedhanky.com.
     
  9. thedbdiboy

    thedbdiboy Member

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    'Also Available At...' (AAA) Season Tickets are a carry-over from BR days, and very useful for some people. The ticket layout doesn't lend itself very well to showing the validity, but in effect it means the ticket is valid for both journeys indicated, with exactly the same route permission (and break of journey rights) as either individual journey allows. In this case, the additional availability at Emerson Park will be the same as that which would apply to a ticket issued from there to the same destination and via the same route as the ticket from Gidea Park
     
  10. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Seems to contradict:
    Either it's valid on Gildea Park-London routes and Emerson Park-London routes, or only Gildea Park-London routes plus Emerson Park to a point on that route (in which case how is this determined - it's obvious in this case but what about a Farnborough-London AAA Frimley ticket?)
     
  11. thedbdiboy

    thedbdiboy Member

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    To clarify, an Emerson Park - London Season Ticket is valid via Romford /Ilford but excludes Upminster. so if you have a Season Ticket from Gidea park to London AAA Emerson Park, it's valid the same way.
    Farnborough - London AAA Frimley will be valid as per a Farnborough - London ticket and also as per a Frimley - London.
     
  12. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Why do you say it's not valid via Upminster?
     
  13. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    To expand. Emerson Park has 3 routeing points: Romford, Barking and Southend. Romford and Barking pass the fare check rule. There are no direct trains to Barking so the shortest route applies. Emerson Park - Upminster - Barking is 9.25 miles while Emerson Park - Romford - Forest Gate (walk) Woodgrange Park - Barking is 11 miles. Therefore Emerson Park to London must be valid via Upminster.
     
  14. PavlosA

    PavlosA Member

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    We have a contract with them to supply annual season tickets. I actually received much the same advice on trying to speak to NXEA. Sounded like a foreign call centre.

    So there appears to be disagreement on the Emerson Park ticket. Are you saying an Emerson Park to London would be valid on both routes?

    Edit: What happened to the original post #2?
     
  15. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    AAA Emerson Park is valid via Upminster. In addition to what MikeWh said above, it is no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, which means that it is always valid.

    Emerson Park - Romford: 2 miles
    Romford - Liverpool Street: 12.5 miles
    Total: 14.5 miles

    Emerson Park - Upminster: 1.5 miles
    Upminster - Fenchurch Street: 15.25 miles
    Total: 16.75 miles

    It was deleted. It was incorrect.
     
  16. Parkview094

    Parkview094 New Member

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    ..Sadly the ticket barriers at Upminster don't seem to agree. Thankfully for me, the guy manning the barriers didn't want to put up an argument! :)
     
  17. PavlosA

    PavlosA Member

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    A further query to add to the mix.

    A colleague with Gidea Park to London AAA Emerson Park annual season ticket has been stopped at the barriers at Stratford domestic and told their ticket does not allow them to leave the train at ANY intermediate station on the route, apparently because the ticket does not say 'Any Permitted'.

    I've told her this can't possibly be the case, but her local ticket inspector says there is something unique about her route.

    Can anyone shed any light?

    Ta Pav
     
  18. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Ask these ticket inspectors what the route is if it is not Any Permitted, and where it is documented that break of journey is barred on an AAA ticket.

    Someone has been making up rules themselves.
     
  19. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Lack of barrier operation doesn't ever automatically mean a route is not valid. Ticket barriers do not understand break of journey by default, even on seasons.
     
  20. PavlosA

    PavlosA Member

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    So there is nothing specific about that particular journey that prohibits ending a journey at an intermediate station, as mentioned in the COC.16?

     
  21. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    It is absolutely not the case.

    No season tickets prohibit break of journey, except for some special discounted ones (e.g. for airport passengers) which, as the NRCoC says, has to be "made clear", and obviously that is not the case here.

    I would consider writing to Greater Anglia Customer Relations regarding this issue. If a satisfactory response is not received then I would take it to Passenger Focus.
     
  22. A60K

    A60K Established Member

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    Stratford - that would be LU staffed? Doesn't excuse it though.
     
  23. PavlosA

    PavlosA Member

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    Hi all

    Thanks for your help so far. Received a pretty quick response from Greater Anglia Customer Relations, but have quizzed further about the AAA validity on c2c. Receive the following:

    On validity at Stratford:

    On validity via Upminster (first response)

    I sent the reply

    And received the following

    Hmmm
     
  24. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    How can the ticket only be valid "between the two stations printed on the ticket"; there are 3 stations printed on the ticket!

    The Customer Services department for whatever the Great Eastern franchise happens to be called today are known for being appallingly lacking in knowledge, with several 'interesting' but incorrect responses from them published on this forum on a range of issues, so this isn't a surprise.

    I would ask them this question:

    "What are the permitted routes between Emerson Park and London?"

    The answer to that is Upminster is permitted.

    I would then ask them to confirm that this ticket is valid between Emerson Park and London, and therefore must be valid on permitted routes between Emerson Park and London.
     
  25. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    I disagree. We aren't talking about an Emerson Park to London ticket (if we were, I 100% agree that the route via Upminster would be permitted).

    We are talking about Gidea Park to London route aaa (also avail at) Emerson Park.

    The point of these tickets is to offer an alternative route (usually for a little extra cost) so suiting people who may live between these two stations.

    For example, FCC were considering introducing dual route tickets on their network a couple of years back (don't think they ever did), example Hitchin-London Terminals AAA luton. Such a ticket would be valid Luton-London but NOT (in my view) permitted routes Luton to Hitchin so (unless permitted by either Hit-london or Lut-london) not valid via Gospel Oak (which would presumably be a valid route Luton-Hitchin).

    Comments please from others.

    At the moment, I believe the TOC correctly advised that the ticket from Gidea Park was not valid via Upminster. Discuss
     
  26. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

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    Shhh - better be quiet or Moody's'll downgrade it to A++ !
     
  27. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    But the argument is that via Upminster is valid for Emerson Park-London, not Emerson Park-Gidea Park. In your example that would be like saying that Hitchin-London is only valid to Kings Cross and not Moorgate, as Kings Cross is closer to St Pancras (or some other ad-hoc rubbish).

    I'm not sure how I'd interpret the validity routeing between the two "starting" stations. I don't think it should be valid, but then the validity is described as "between ... and ..." so can you really say that one is an origin (along with the AAA station) and one a destination?
     
  28. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    But that's exactly what our argument is!

    If you say that AAA Emerson Park does not allow London-Emerson Park permitted routes, then what are the rules for determining permitted routes?

    But that's the opposite of what I am arguing, surely?

    I am arguing that London - Gidea Park AAA Emerson Park means:

    • London - Gidea Park; and
    • London - Emerson Park

    By the same logic, London-Bexleyheath AAA Sidcup means:

    • London - Bexleyheath; and
    • London - Sidcup
    Surely we are in agreement about the method and I wonder if you just need to check the map to see where these places are as I think there must be a misunderstanding here.

    It appears that Greater Anglia's weird logic would have a London-Bexleyheath AAA Sidcup valid by the shortest route from Sidcup to Bexleyheath, so valid via Crayford, rather than what is clearly intended which is an alternative route to London.

    However I doubt their customer service staff have the intelligence to figure this out. Speaking to an ex-employee who told me that their customer service staff asked him for advice because they knew he was knowledgeable even though he worked in a completely different department. They probably don't have anyone left with a clue.

    They were clueless under NX, and they remain clueless now. I am not at all surprised. They have given poor advice to various forum members and they'll keep doing so because no-one seems capable of making them see any sort of sense whatsoever.


    I spoke with someone at ATOC about this and they agreed with my interpretation (after looking up the mileages).
     
    Last edited: 27 Mar 2012
  29. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    With the greatest of respect, I used to work in Romford, so I don't think I do.

    The ticket is valid permitted routes Gidea Park to London. The ticket is also available at Emerson Park (instead of Gidea Park) if required.

    In my view, this means that you can deviate from the routes of Gidea Park-London to serve Emerson Park.

    I do not believe the routing (for when Emerson Park is being used) is necessarily the same as an Emerson Park-London ticket - though I have no source for that apart from my own version of logic.

    As someone said a few posts above, let's have the OP reply (to both TOCs) and ask them what routes they may use for the Emerson Park leg.

    I'm very happy to apologise if I'm wrong, however to my mind it is simple that this is a Gidea Park-London season, also available to deviate from that permitted route to go to Emerson Park (shortest route from that line of route to Emerson Park).

    Is there an Emerson Park-London AAA gidea park? I don't think we would have a dispute over that ticket (if it exists).
     
  30. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    So the permitted routes are:
    London - Gidea Park; and
    Gidea Park-Emerson Park via Romford?

    If so, where can you deviate from the route on a London - Bexleyheath? Like the Gidea Park example, can I only deviate near Bexleyheath, in which case travel should be via Crayford? I don't agree with that.
    Hmm, but isn't a London - Bexleyheath AAA Sidcup ticket not usable as a London - Sidcup ticket? If not, what is it usable as?
    Indeed I've given the OP some advice on how to take the matter further.
    Hmm, but shortest route from Bexleyheath to Sidcup is going to be via Crayford so I am not sure that should be the logic.
    No, there isn't, the price is identical to the Gidea Park AAA Emerson Park ticket though (so there's no anomaly here; no revenue reason why the ticket should not be valid as a London - Emerson Park).

    Edit: actually I couldn't find it in Avantix Traveller but someone from ATOC was going to try to get it set up from Emerson Park AAA Gidea Park; can anyone with up-to-date access check if this has been done please?
     
  31. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    But this argument takes no account of the prices:
    • Gidea Park - London Terminals route Any Permitted - 7 days £41; Annual £1640
    • Gidea Park - London Terminals route AAA Emerson Park - 7 days £41; Annual £1640
    • Emerson Park - London Terminals route Any Permitted - 7 days £41; Annual £1640
     
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