AAA Emerson Park

[34D]

No, there isn't, the price is identical to the Gidea Park AAA Emerson Park ticket though (so there's no anomaly here; no revenue reason why the ticket should not be valid as a London - Emerson Park).

But plenty of revenue reasons why we need something more concrete (for your rationale) - as we do not want to OP/his friend to get a penalty fare between Upminster and Barking. I want you to be right (for the purposes of passenger rights) not me.

To illustrate my POV further:

The mapped routes for Gidea Park to London Terminals (in addition obviously to shortest route and direct trains) is map CO (which is great eastern main line, shown as just a single line Liverpool St to Shenfield).

Mapped routes for Emerson Park to London Terminals (in addition obviously to shortest route) are CO, or EA, or TS (for this route, EA is the same as CO, and TS is romford-emerson park-upminster-barking thence all permutations west of there that C2C serve from time to time (inc the little used gas factory spur).

Our ticket (gidea park to london terminals) is valid by map CO and is also available to Gidea Park. I do not believe we can infer map TS for a gidea park-London terminals.

 

[yorkie]

But plenty of revenue reasons why we need something more concrete (for your rationale) - as we do not want to OP/his friend to get a penalty fare between Upminster and Barking. I want you to be right (for the purposes of passenger rights) not me.

That would give us ammunition against Penalty Fares and Greater Anglia's competence.

To illustrate my POV further:

The mapped routes for Gidea Park to London Terminals (in addition obviously to shortest route and direct trains) is map CO (which is great eastern main line, shown as just a single line Liverpool St to Shenfield).

Mapped routes for Emerson Park to London Terminals (in addition obviously to shortest route) are CO, or EA, or TS (for this route, EA is the same as CO, and TS is romford-emerson park-upminster-barking thence all permutations west of there that C2C serve from time to time (inc the little used gas factory spur).

Our ticket (gidea park to london terminals) is valid by map CO and is also available to Gidea Park. I do not believe we can infer map TS for a gidea park-London terminals.

The maps are not the only reason an Emerson Park ticket should be valid via Upminster, but the shortest route rule too.

There isn't an anything in the above that answers any of my questions above, and the comparison with the Bexleyheath ticket also remains unanswered.

 

[PavlosA]

So if an Emerson Park - London AAA Gidea Park was available, it would definitely be valid via Upminster? Would this still cause questions and disagreement from inspectors on the route?

 

[34D]

So if an Emerson Park - London AAA Gidea Park was available, it would definitely be valid via Upminster? Would this still cause questions and disagreement from inspectors on the route?

We are all in agreement that such a ticket would be valid via both Upminster and Romford.

May I ask you to send a further reply to C2C asking for the routes your ticket (gidea park-london) is valid on please.

 

[PavlosA]

Will do shortly...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does anyone have a contact email for c2c Customer Relations? I've used

[email protected]

as found on the NRE website, but not even an automated response received. The 'online enquiry form' asks for far too much detail.

On another note, I've had a response from ATOC which is partly pleasing and partly displeasing.

First response:

Thank you for your enquiry,

London Terminals - Gidea Park, Also Available At (AAA) Emerson Park. It is valid by all permitted routes between London Terminals and Gidea Park, and between London Terminals and Emerson Park.

Kind regards

My response: "Could I clarify something further? What exactly are the 'permitted routes' between London Terminals and Emerson Park?"

Second response:

A permitted route is either the most direct , or shortest route .

For this journey permitted routes are;

London Liverpool St to Emerson Park via Romford

London Liverpool St to Gidea Park

I am awaiting clarification from C2C regarding the route below being permitted.

London Fenchurch St - Emerson Park, via Upminster

Kind regards

So the ticket can be used on all permitted routes between London Terminals & Emerson Park. But why would ATOC need to clarify what these routes are with a TOC? Should they not know the answer themselves?

 

[swt_passenger]

The probable reason ATOC have to check with the TOC, is that ATOC is not a supervisory organisation for the TOCs. In terms of the routeing guide and rail settlement plan, it is really a sort of facility provider - the TOCs 'working together'.

 

[Paul Kelly]

And if you read carefully, it doesn't say they are awaiting clarification as to whether the route is permitted, they are awaiting clarification regarding the route being permitted. In my reading, that means they know the route is permitted, but they suspect c2c might not like that fact, and want to discuss it a bit more with them in order to present a united front.

 

[swt_passenger]

And if you read carefully, it doesn't say they are awaiting clarification as to whether the route is permitted, they are awaiting clarification regarding the route being permitted. In my reading, that means they know the route is permitted, but they suspect c2c might not like that fact, and want to discuss it a bit more with them in order to present a united front.

Concur. They won't want to run the risk of stating it as fact and then having to retract it, maybe just after c2c insist on a negative easement being added... :cry:

 

[LexyBoy]

A permitted route is either the most direct , or shortest route

What is this I don't even

 

[island]

What is this I don't even

I know the quote wasn't a full sentence, but there's no need for you to do the same

 

[LexyBoy]

I was more concerned about the somewhat unconventional definition of a Permitted Route than any grammatical niggles

 

[PavlosA]

In the meantime I have a response from c2c to this:

Could you please confirm the valid routes for two season tickets?

1. London Terminals to Gidea Park AAA Emerson Park
2. London Terminals to Emerson Park

Thank you for your email.

As the routes you are enquiring about are both Greater Anglia train routes we would be unable to confirm a definte answer for you and would suggest contacting Greater Anglia directly. However, to the best of my knowledge both these routes would be valid to London Liverpool Street only. I have attached the link below to Greater Anglia's website for your convenience:

http://www.greateranglia.co.uk/

Thank you again for taking the time to contact us and we hope to be of service to you again in the future.

Yours sincerely

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Confirmation from ATOC today that this ticket is valid via Upminster, contrary to the thought of GA & C2c

 

[bb21]

Confirmation from ATOC today that this ticket is valid via Upminster, contrary to the thought of GA & C2c

Glad that you got the correct response and at least someone knows what they are doing.

 

[swt_passenger]

When you show or explain it to rail staff though, make sure to have a suitable response prepared for when they reply that they've never heard of ATOC... :roll:

 

[34D]

Confirmation from ATOC today that this ticket is valid via Upminster, contrary to the thought of GA & C2c

That's great news, just the result we wanted. Well done for being persistant/ent (its late and time for bed).

 

[jspencer74]

PavlosA, are you able to provide a copy your confirmation letter from ATOC? Mysteriously my Emerson Park / Fenchurch Street ticket has stopped working in recent days.

And apparently the barrier ticket people at are not open to discussion.

 

[PavlosA]

Hey there. Just waiting for it to arrive, so I'll see what I can do. So is your current ticket just Emerson Park to London Terminals? And you use on c2c every day?

 

[jspencer74]

Thanks PavlosA; That's right I have been using it for my commute without problem until recently...

to make a short story long...

I originally purchased at the ticket at Upminster Station in November (I moved into the area around then) and it was fine until about three weeks ago. Have been going through the 'manually operated' barriers at Fenchurch until yesterday when the chap stopped me.

I was in a rush so I bought a fresh ticket instead of 'discussing' the point there and then.

However in my 'layover' waiting for the EMP train I got a replacement ticket at UPM, and again the operator / booth person gave it to me without question.

However I have just noticed the ticket operator gave me my old ticket back yesterday, not my new ticket... so perhaps the old ticket has just stopped working and it is not a 'barrier' issue.

However, I would like to have a copy of the letter as insurance for whatever it is worth in the future.

 

[yorkie]

...
I was in a rush so I bought a fresh ticket instead of 'discussing' the point there and then....

Make sure you get a refund for this additional ticket. I am happy to proof read it for you if you wish.

If you continue to have issues with the barriers, then it is possible that we could pay a 'mystery shopping' visit one day next week (PM me if this is the case) and if problems persist then it needs escalating (e.g. to Passenger Focus).

 

[jspencer74]

PavlosA, did you get your letter from ATOC?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yorkie, thanks for your post, would be interested in discussig further, learning more. How do I PM you? (I am new here so lots to learn), I tried via your himpeage but that did not appear to work.

 

[MikeWh]

How do I PM you? (I am new here so lots to learn), I tried via your himpeage but that did not appear to work.

Welcome to the forum. The PM system is activated when you have made 5 posts. There is an automatic upgrade process which will detect your 5th post shortly after you have made it, but not immediately. Note that two posts in the same thread adjacent to each other will be merged into one.

 

[PavlosA]

Hey

Sorry for the delay, I was off for a week. Letter attached. It specifiies the AAA Emerson Park ticket, but should be fine for you.

I wonder if I should go back to both GA and c2c customer relations to tell them what ATOC confirmed?

 

[34D]

Hey

Sorry for the delay, I was off for a week. Letter attached. It specifiies the AAA Emerson Park ticket, but should be fine for you.

I wonder if I should go back to both GA and c2c customer relations to tell them what ATOC confirmed?

Did you reply to the silly C2C email? Did they send anything back?

 

[PavlosA]

Perhaps I pushed a little too much:

Thank you for your further comments.

I have checked with the fares department with regards to the ticket from Emerson Park to London Terminals and its 'routing'. This ticket is valid for travel from Emerson Park, to London Fenchurch Street, via Upminster according to the routing guide.

Please note that when purchasing tickets via any rail website, if you enter any London Terminal station (such as Paddington) it will sell a ticket to London Terminals but may not provide you with travel to that specific one. London Terminals is the station of destination which is used to note the terminal on the line on which you travel.

What you will need to be aware of is that there is no point to point ticket available from Upminster to London Fenchurch Street, only a Zonal Travelcard. The ticket from Emerson Park, which is in Zone 6, should also therefore be a Travelcard if travelling to London Fenchurch Street, and not have a point to point option.

The ticket which you have purchased is therefore an anomaly in the system which will be looked at in future fares amendments. Please note that the ticket from Emerson Park to London Terminals is one that is set by Greater Anglia and not c2c.

Please feel free to use this email should your ticket be checked by a Revenue Protection Inspector on our route. I have also made these comments available to the Head of Revenue so that he may brief his staff.

Once again, please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Yours sincerely
Carley Maidment
Customer Services Executive
c2c Rail

 

[island]

Not really, they're just digging further. No point to point tickets within the zones? First I've heard of that!

 

[MikeWh]

Not really, they're just digging further. No point to point tickets within the zones? First I've heard of that!

Well, there are no point to point season tickets on LU, and c2c use the LU charging model within the Oyster area, so he might be right. Sure enough, in the NFM Upminster to London terminals only has 4 fares (SDS, SDR, PAP, POP) and two of those are Oyster PAYG.

 

[PavlosA]

Some colleagues have confirmed they cannot purchase point to point from Upminster.

Response from GA

Thank you for your recent email.

I have contacted c2c regarding the validity of your season ticket from Upminster. I have discovered that while this would be valid on c2c services between Upminster and Fenchurch Street it has been identified as an anomaly within the system. The season ticket between Emerson Park and London is set by Greater Anglia and can be used on any valid route at the present time. Season tickets are not available between Upminster and London on c2c services because this is within the travel card zone and only travel cards can be sold on this route. This anomaly has been brought to the attention of Greater Anglia and c2c and who will be changing this as quickly as possible.

Once this has been changed your ticket will no longer be valid on c2c services and can only be used travelling via Romford. Once the fare changes have come in to operation for this particular ticket, the only way to travel from Upminster would be to purchase a travel card.

At this present time you can use your season ticket from Upminster but as previously mentioned this will change soon. I have been informed that c2c Revenue Protection Officers have been briefed about this anomaly and until the fares are changed they will continue to pass tickets.

I hope this information has helped you.

Once again, thank you for contacting us.

Yours sincerely,
Steven Farrell
Customer Relations Advisor
Greater Anglia

A bit more shirty than the other response.

 

[calc7]

If this is an annual season, surely your ticket will continue to be valid via Upminster, under the conditions it was sold?

 

[causton]

Well done, a great success!

I suppose it's a success if you're against anomolies in the system, but not very good if you... actually wanted to use that ticket, erm, yes... oops! :P

And in reply to calc7, if I buy a ticket for future travel (let's say without an itinerary) but I know the permitted routes, if one of those routes gets removed am I still allowed to use it as it was allowed at the time of purchase?
...of course!

 

[RJ]

Some colleagues have confirmed they cannot purchase point to point from Upminster.

Response from GA



A bit more shirty than the other response.

Not surprising in the slightest. Once you got confirmation from ATOC, you should have just left it! I'm a believer in only rustling feathers if it's absolutely imperative and there's no alternative.

What it looks like is that you got the confirmation you required from ATOC which was more than fair enough, then ran back to the TOCs and rubbed it in their faces!