Abbreviations

[freelance84]

Good afternoon all,

I am having a bit of a dilemma at the moment, with out going into too much detail and boring you, can you tell me what the following abbreviations stand for?

"X/S ALT RTE SGL"

As a regular passenger on trains but with out working for the train company how are you meant to just know what this means?

Is it:
Excess alternative route single?

If so, what on earth is that supposed to mean in layman's terms?

Thanks in advance,

Mike

 

[First class]

yep- you're exactly right.

Means you have paid an extra amount of money (excess) to change what route you can travel via with your tickets.

e.g.

Chester-Liverpool route Birkenhead costs £4.60 Single. I then decide I want to travel via Warrington instead, so I ask for a route excess. The 'Any Permitted' ticket which lets me go via Warrington costs £7.70. The extra fare I need to pay is £7.70-£4.60 = £3.10 X/S ALT RTE SGL.

You may also be charged the excess if you have gotten on a train that goes a route that your ticket does not permit. Valid routes are usually determined by a very complex routeing guide, and for advice, you would have to post your exact circumstances.

 

[thelem]

Valid routes are usually determined by a very complex routeing guide, and for advice, you would have to post your exact circumstances.

Do you mean to say there are "direct" trains that do not go by "Any Permitted" route? If so, that's just asking for confusion.

 

[krus_aragon]

Do you mean to say there are "direct" trains that do not go by "Any Permitted" route? If so, that's just asking for confusion.

A direct or 'through' service is always valid, even if the routes given by the routeing guide doesn't include it. That's largely for the sake of passengers' sanity. Likewise the shortest route is always valid.

The only valid routes listed by the routeing guide from Cardiff to Shrewsbury are via Newport. But if you turn up at 0809 and get on the Cardiff to Shrewsbury service then you can still travel on that train, even though it travels via Swansea and is much slower. You can't go that way any other time, as that's the only direct train.

 

[freelance84]

OK thanks for the responses, the reason I asked was:

A short while ago I purchased an open ended return from leeds to newcastle on the thetrainline.com. The 1st leg up to newcastle was fine. The next day around 3pm on the sunday i went to return back to leeds.

The return ticket had on it at the top under ticket type:
"X/S ALT RTE SGL"
And at the bottom of the ticket under route:
"ANY PERMITTED"

I had used this service dozens of times before as I was a student up in the toon, often getting to newcastle station and getting either a direct train to leeds if available or one to york and then york to leeds (been doing that for four years!!)

On this day the best option was to get the newcastle - york - leeds.

However, the ticket conductor on the train from newcastle to york looked at my ticket and somehow decided that I was on an incorrect train, I was on an east coast train when i should have been on some other train. This just doesn't make sense at all to me and would love for somebody to try and explain it.

Much thanks,

Mike

 

[142094]

Newcastle - York - Leeds is perfectly valid, and is what quite a lot of people will do as the TPE service from Newcastle - York is usually much slower than East Coast or Crosscountry, as it stops at more of the intermediate stations like Northalleton and Thirsk.

As you say it was "Any Permitted" so I don't know how he could have thought you were on the wrong train, as it would say something like "TPE Only" or "XC Only" on the ticket and therefore you wouldn't be allowed to travel on the East Coast train. Mystifying.

 

[freelance84]

I know it's crazy, you couldn't make this up if you tried.

As a result of this she (the ticket conductor) then tried to make me pay another £40 for a new newcastle to leeds ticket. I had paid £28.10 with my YP railcard via the net. So quite rightly (in my opinion) I refused to pay, she then marched me to the front of the train and wrote out a fine!

I refused to sign the fine and kept stating I did not agree with it. She then gave me a copy of an unsigned fine and clearly filed it.

One month later I received a letter from "revenue protection support services" stating I had to pay £55.50.

I tried phoning them up but was told to write: I wrote a letter in response explaining the situation which they ignored and simply sent out a new letter with a new amount now totalling £70, I wrote another letter and sent it recorded del, they ignored the second letter and sent a notice saying they were going ahead with court proceedings!

I phoned them up again, they finally admitted they had received the letters but then the lady quite rudely just hung up the phone. This was yesterday the 1st of Feb.

I am now feeling pretty worried about the whole affair and it has wasted hours of my time and am considering legal assistance.

Has anyone had any similar experiences in the past and how was it resolved?

Much thanks,

Mike


p.s.
I have also now checked with a station ticket office, theticketline.com's support number and now with your selves, all of which have said the ticket was valid. I would post a picture of the scanned in image of the ticket but this forum doesn't allow it.

 

[Mojo]

I have also now checked with a station ticket office, theticketline.com's support number and now with your selves, all of which have said the ticket was valid. I would post a picture of the scanned in image of the ticket but this forum doesn't allow it.

What format is it? Click 'Manage Attachments' underneath the reply box and you should be able to upload it.

If it's an excess you should have two tickets, the X/S slip and the ticket which is actually being excessed.

 

[freelance84]

Ah yup, got it now. It's uploaded, i was going for the url thing

 

[142094]

The only thing I cannot understand is why thetrainline would send out a ticket with that at the top, which is probably why the conductor queried the ticket. This is unless another member better rehearsed on tickets can help.

 

[tony_mac]

I don't know much about ticketing - but I'm confused.
Where did you get the 'excess' ticket from? As that was apparently printed on the Sunday that you returned, and not at the same time as the original tickets.

 

[142094]

Did you have your railcard on your return journey? Advance tickets cannot be excessed for not having a railcard, and a new ticket must be bought.

 

[freelance84]

I did had my Y.P. card with me yes.

I have noticed that printing date thing my self and I don't understand it either, all the tickets were printed on the same day. The reason the return is stamped is because the conductor on the York-Leeds train did so.

Also I purchased the tickets on the net a few days earlier (not sure exactly when) and got them from a fast service machine on the day I went up to Newcastle.

 

[Mojo]

The ticket you have attached was printed by a portable ticket machine and thus could not have formed part of the tickets you collected from the station. What were the tickets you collected from the station and where did you get that X/S ticket from?

 

[tony_mac]

I do not think that is your original ticket.

Is it possible somebody took your ticket and replaced it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The ticket you have attached was printed by a portable ticket machine

oh, yes, so it was - well spotted!

 

[glynn80]

Ah yup, got it now. It's uploaded, i was going for the url thing

OK, so when you purchased your tickets from theTrainline and they were either send to you or you collected them from the machine, there would have been three coupons/tickets:

1. Outward Portion, Leeds to Newcastle
2. Return Portion, Newcastle to Leeds
3. Receipt

Now from the images you have uploaded, I can clearly see the Receipt however the Outward Portion and the Return Portion are missing (the Outward Portion isn't really relevant as you could of thrown this away after heading to Newcastle). What you have uploaded however is an image of an Excess Fare which was purchased two days after the printing of the three coupons above.

An Excess Fare is issued in various circumstances, in this case because the ticket you held was not valid for the route you wished to travel and therefore you needed to "excess" your ticket's validity so that it was valid on the route you chose to take. The Excess Fare is only valid when accompanied by the ticket you originally held. It usually states this with the words "Only Valid With Ticket No 12345" (obviously with 12345 replaced with the Ticket No. of the original ticket) on the top orange bar of the Excess Fare ticket coupon (which is obscured in the image you posted). The conductor would have been perfectly within his/her rights to issue you with an Unpaid Fares Notice if you did not hold the return portion of your ticket and only held the Excess Fare (e.g. if you lost the return portion). Unfortunately if you do not wish to pay the balance to TPE it is likely court action will occur. If the scenario I have portrayed above is the scenario that in fact occurred, you will most likely lose the case.


Just as an aside, I also cannot find a £28.10 fare from Leeds to Newcastle, anyone have any idea what this fare could have been at NFM04 prices?

 

[freelance84]

Flipping heck!

Ok, I have no idea where the outgoing ticket is or when I disposed of it.

From what you have just said it sounds to me like the ticket conductor gave to me this printed ticket I have scanned in and kept the original. There is no way I would have thrown it away.

Also, I phoned up the ticketline.com support number yesterday and they confirmed that the ticket i purchased from them was an open return one.

 

[glynn80]

?? How?? After all the commotion the conductor caused me I made sure I kept these in my YP's card wallet.

This is seriously confusing now. I have phoned up theticketline.com and checked I was able to travel on the train I did, I was told to quote the 7BNR58FG number over the phone and they confirmed it was an open return.

The original tickets you purchased probably were valid from Leeds to Newcastle, however if you did not have these in your possession when you returned from Newcastle and only had the Excess Fare, then you were travelling invalidly. Of course theTrainline would confirm you were able to travel on those services because the tickets you originally purchased were, but if in the meantime they became misplaced then unfortunately the buck lies with you for misplacing them, not with theTrainline.

If of course you do still have the return portion in your possession, you can send this into TPE as proof you did hold a valid ticket and therefore you needn't pay the Unpaid Fares Notice, if you don't have this the best course of action is to pay up...

 

[freelance84]

Ah for crying out loud.

I definatley showed the newcastle to leeds ticket to the woman as she looked at it and said i was on the wrong train. This is why she wrote this notice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
oh, and by theticketline.com i meant thetrainline.com

 

[glynn80]

Ah for crying out loud.

I definatley showed the newcastle to leeds ticket to the woman as she looked at it and said i was on the wrong train. This is why she wrote this notice.

Do you still have the ticket?

If so if you could upload an image of it then we could help you with your case to TPE a lot more easily, as at the moment we only have an image of the Receipt and of the Excess Fare.

 

[tony_mac]

Can you explain where that ticket came from?
The ticket was printed at 16:45, where were you then?

It seems unbelievable that the guard would have taken that action if you had shown her a valid ticket, so it seems likely that you showed her this one (which isn't valid).


Unless, that's what the guard gave you to get home and kept your original ticket?
Can you show us the booking confimation for the original tickets, maybe there is some clue in that?

your case to TPE

East Coast apparently, although it seems that somebody from TPE (probably) happily stamped it later on.

 

[b0b]

Just as an aside, I also cannot find a £28.10 fare from Leeds to Newcastle, anyone have any idea what this fare could have been at NFM04 prices?

me neither, not only that, the most expensive std route restricted ticket seems to be the 12.55 Advance TPE only (with the railcard discount)

I definatley showed the newcastle to leeds ticket to the woman as she looked at it and said i was on the wrong train.

Please scan in and upload the return portion of the ticket that shows the trip between Newcastle and Leeds, not the Excess ticket.

 

[John @ home]

Ah yup, got it now. It's uploaded, i was going for the url thing

Many thanks for the upload. Unfortunately we still don't have enough information.

First, there has to be another ticket for the excess fare to be valid. An Excess Fare ticket on its own doesn't allow you to travel. The Collection Receipt is just that - a receipt. It doesn't allow you to travel. Do you have another ticket to go with the Excess Fare ticket? If not, that is likely to be the reason why the train company are seeking payment from you.

Secondly, is anything printed on the top orange stripe of the Excess Fare ticket? I would expect it to refer to the original ticket. As an example, I travelled from London to York last week using an Excess Fare ticket. I had to show 4 tickets for the original ticket and the Excess Fare to be valid. I don't have immediate access to a scanner at present but, to show you what I mean, the words printed on each of the 4 tickets are in blue below.

Ticket 1
VALID ONLY WITH RESERVATION(S)
Class STD. Ticket type ADVANCE. Adult ONE. Child NIL. SGL
Start date 10.DMR.09A. Number 55352 4712 0 6497E89
From LONDON TERMINALS. Valid until 10.DMR.09. Disc 21% Price £33.20X
To YORK *. Route NXEC & CONNECTNS. Validity BOOKDTRAINONLY
SINGLE
ToD CTR HC5KGBH4
Printed 12:51 on 02.OCT.09

Ticket 2
VALID ONLY WITH TRAVEL TICKET
Class STD. Ticket type SEAT. Issue date 02.OCT.09. Price £0.00X
From LONDON KINGS X *. Pass'grs TWO. Number 55354 4712 0 6497E89
To YORK *. Valid at 1700 HOURS ON 10.DMR.09
Coach F Seats 47A 48A
SEAT RESERVATION
FE 501945 ToD CTR HC5KGBH4
Printed 12:51 on 02.OCT.09

Ticket 3
VALID ONLY WITH REF HC5KGBH4
ISSUED AS 02 COUPONS
Class STD. Ticket type X/S ADVANCE. Adult ONE. Child NIL. SGL
DISC. Start date 28.JNR.10A. Number 73584 7001 440001
From LONDON TERMINALS. Valid until 28.JNR.10. Disc 11% Price £4.20X
To YORK *. Route EC & CONNECTNS. Validity BOOKDTRAINONLY
EXCESS
FM649625 M8CFX667
Printed 02:39 on 23.NOV.09

Ticket 4
VALID ONLY WITH TICKET 73584 RETAIN FOR INSPECTION
Class STD. Ticket type SEAT. Start date 28.JNR.10. Price £0.00X
From LONDON KINGS X *. Number 73585 7001 440001
To YORK *. Valid at 1800 HOURS ON 28.JNR.10
Coach F Seats 23A 24A
MANDATORY RESERVATION COUPON 1 OF 1
FM649625 M8CFX667
Printed 02:39 on 23.NOV.09

 

[glynn80]

me neither, not only that, the most expensive std route restricted ticket seems to be the 12.55 Advance TPE only (with the railcard discount)

I don't know if these existed back in NFM04 but in NFM05, XC Only FDS, FDR, SDS and SDRs are listed (I have checked NFM04 within the FRPP but the listings of fares is not always 100% accurate unfortunately). However I'm not sure the "Alternative Route Excess" would have been issued for being on a TOC specific ticket on the wrong TOC (this would be an entirely new ticket), the "Alternative Route Excess" is used when I have say for example a London to Birmingham "Route High Wycombe" and I wish to travel on the WCML (i.e. the Route is location specific not TOC specific).

 

[freelance84]

After you spotted that the ticket was not the original, I phoned up thetrainline.com again. I spoke to a different person this time who said that ticket was only valid on a transpennine train (but an open return).

What must have happened here is the ticket conductor did not return to me the original ticket so I simply proceeded on the assumption the scanned in x/s ticket was the original.

As a result of not being made aware in big clear letters when i bought the ticket it was only valid on transpennine and am now going to have to pay the now huge fine of £90 something pounds.

Can somebody tell me though, was the ticket conductor woman correct in charging me £40 on the train?

I can't say i'm going to be using the train services again anytime soon. How are you supposed to just know what all the abreviations mean. When you buy a ticket to go from Newcastle to Leeds you expect it to work on any train from newcastle to leeds.

 

[b0b]

I don't know if these existed back in NFM04 but in NFM05, XC Only FDS, FDR, SDS and SDRs are listed (I have checked NFM04 within the FRPP but the listings of fares is not always 100% accurate
unfortunately)

checking my copy of NFM04, the FDS and SDS's are Any Permitted.

Interestingly this also shows fare of 40.50 for a SDS between Newcastle and Leeds, any Permitted, this presumably being the ticket that the the guard was attemping to sell the OP

However I'm not sure the "Alternative Route Excess" would have been issued for being on a TOC specific ticket on the wrong TOC (this would be an entirely new ticket)

Also interestingly the Excess is for zero... so what kind of excess could that be?

 

[freelance84]

Also does anybody know who deals with the actual appeals? Is there a number i can call to clear this up?

 

[CarterUSM]

I noticed that too. Perhaps a zero fare has been issued incorrectly by the guard/revenue inspector and the original ticket withdrawn for investigation. You do have to do it through the excess screen on the advantix, and that ticket will show up as a zero fare on the operators end of shift ticket.

 

[tony_mac]

Can somebody tell me though, was the ticket conductor woman correct in charging me £40 on the train?

Yes, I'm afraid so, the standard single price from Newcastle to Leeds is £38.50.

Although you should really have been given the option of buying a ticket to York for £26.40, and then you could have bought a discounted ticket to Leeds at the ticket office there.

When buying advance tickets, you are warned you that you must travel on the specified trains only. Sadly, it wouldn't have cost much more to buy an off-peak return and you wouldn't have been stuck to specific trains.
Although, I can't even find an 'open' ticket which is only valid on Transpennine trains.

 

[freelance84]

Yes I do remember saying that if she was correct then I should only be paying for a new ticket from newcastle to york but she refused to let me and wrote out the whole thing.

I don't think i will be using the trains very much in the future for journeys like that. It's just a joke.

Apparently thetrainline.com told me it was written in the T&C's of the agreement of the ticket, but seriously who reads all and in detail all the T&C's when buying a flipping rail ticket.

I'm just gonna use my car its cheaper in the end.