Abellio Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

[Chris125]

How can it be a design flaw? The S&T know the exact timings, and replicate that many times during the test, so that part is correct, the driver of each train can see clearly the crossings on that line, so we are saying that they have not twigged in all those years, that the crossings lower when they are very, very close to it ? Crews know when a set of barriers should lower, it becomes second nature, they would know straight away something is not quite right, and also surely would have been picked up elsewhere in the Country? The system is not just used on this line.
Everything was fine until the new kids on the block started
19 years all types about 50 to 55 a day no problem ... 14 days with a 755 maybe 3 or 4 times in a day as not in full service, still training etc

According to posts on another forum it's an American 'predictor' system which, if I understand correctly, uses the occupation of track circuits to match the timing of the crossing to the speed of the oncoming train - perhaps this inherently gives slightly variable results especially in Autumn, albeit nothing obviously dangerous occurred until the Stadlers arrived?

 

[LAX54]

What about other locations in the UK that use this system and other countries that had stadler problems with some fleets withdrawn completely ?

legacy trains cautioned on the cromer as the barriers were on local !

 

[dk1]

What about other locations in the UK that use this system and other countries that had stadler problems with some fleets withdrawn completely ?

legacy trains cautioned on the cromer as the barriers were on local !

I still can't get my head around the 20mph ESR whilst the barriers are on local.

 

[Carlgoss]

Just seen some pictures of 410 and the seat backs look really worn already!

 

[dk1]

Just seen some pictures of 410 and the seat backs look really worn already!

This has been said before. It's not the case.

 

[Carlgoss]

This has been said before. It's not the case.

Oh good news dk1.. thanks.. I thought after all the effort that went into the seat spec etc. Guess the photos must have been doctored in some way... on Richard C's retweet
Great to see the three car units out now, and some 755 activity around Ipswich too.

 

[dk1]

Oh good news dk1.. thanks.. I thought after all the effort that went into the seat spec etc. Guess the photos must have been doctored in some way... on Richard C's retweet
Great to see the three car units out now, and some 755 activity around Ipswich too.

Sometimes it's the way the camera catches it but the material can look a little like that but it's not worn.

 

[Abbo]

It may be that the new trains do not conduct sufficient current to trigger the track circuits. But what is "sufficient"? Is there an industry standard? If not then surely NR must have tested their equipment and know the maximum "ohmage" needed?

There is an industry standard and as has been said on this group the FLIRTS have been tested and fall within the permitted range

 

[Chris125]

What about other locations in the UK that use this system and other countries that had stadler problems with some fleets withdrawn completely ?

Do those other locations use exactly the same technology in the same way though? We'll have to wait for more details but I think there's good reason to believe the underlying issue is with the line's signalling.

This 2011 report on the ORR website reviews the crossing at Whitlingham and confirms the Cromer line was resignalled "as a trial site for the Vaughan Harmon interlocking and level crossing predictor / processor technology", so any subsequent installations may differ.

Perhaps unsurprisingly for a trial of new technology the system proved unreliable, wasn't well supported by the manufacturer and staff competency was limited - has that played a role in recent events?

In this case the following issues were identified:

- Concerns that the system is not robust and is prone to intermittent failures which can cause significant train delays.
- The cost and difficulty of obtaining spares for the VHLC system.
- The lack of any meaningful support for the VHLC system by GETS.
- The limited number of competent staff and difficulty obtaining training.​

 

[Grumbler]

There is an industry standard and as has been said on this group the FLIRTS have been tested and fall within the permitted range

Thank you, I must have missed the earlier post. But what this presumably must mean is that it is up to NR to resolve the problem that nearly resulted in a disaster at the level crossing on the Bittern Line.

 

[trebor79]

Aren't there lots of reliability problems with it, such as the system not working when there's lightening nearby? Or has that been solved now?

In use on the Bletchley to Bedford Line also.



Signalling has been affected by lightning storms for time and memorial.

Well indeed if it is damaged by lightening strikes. But I think over read previously that the signalling on this line uses wireless communication, which is very prone to interference by lightening and other things that wouldn't affect 'normal' signalling installations.

 

[Icky Qualms]

It is /was unique. The spelling might be wrong but I think Ansoldo , Westinghouse subsiduary, wanted to flog this American system to the UK and the Bittern Line was the test bed. As far as know , for whatever reason, it wasn't installed elsewhere in the UK.

The signalling system used on the Sheringham line was a Vaughan Harmon design based on USA practice.
It uses axle counters rather than track circuits.
As far as the control circuits for the auto barriers though, they may use local track circuits.
Vaughan Harmon were subsequently taken over by GE Transportation Systems.
I worked on the telecommunications design at the time so that is why my signalling knowledge is limited.
The line is controlled signalling wise from a panel in Trowse Swingbridge signalbox.
It was resignalled early 2000's

 

[ge-gn]

Well indeed if it is damaged by lightening strikes. But I think over read previously that the signalling on this line uses wireless communication, which is very prone to interference by lightening and other things that wouldn't affect 'normal' signalling installations.

Vaughan Harmon control works in that a command is sent from the controlling panel via telecommunications circuits over a modem to a local interlocking, where the command is checked, and then auctioned. There is no wireless tech involved.

A rail telecommunications circuit is just as vulnerable to adverse weather as your domestic line. There is protection of course but this by its nature will protect the interlocking by isolating it from a spike.

 

[LAX54]

Thank you, I must have missed the earlier post. But what this presumably must mean is that it is up to NR to resolve the problem that nearly resulted in a disaster at the level crossing on the Bittern Line.

More issues with 755s tonight, nowhere near the Bittern Line (Ipswich, Norwich & Yarmouth, although minor), seems part of the problem is the 'scrubber' .......seems it is working 'in reverse' from what we have heard ! mod needed, and the sander applies under the wrong wheels (non driving)

 

[Chris125]

As far as the control circuits for the auto barriers though, they may use local track circuits.

There's a good description in the June 2017 Rail Engineer (pg 30): https://issuu.com/railmedia/docs/tre-june-2017

...a level-crossing predictor was first introduced between Norwich and Cromer when the line was resignalled in 2000.

The GETS Harmon HXP-3 uses audio frequency track circuits to detect an approaching train, and the rate of change of the inductance of the rails is used to determine its speed and hence calculate the trigger moment to provide and constant warning time for each train.

 

[LAX54]

There's a good description in the June 2017 Rail Engineer (pg 30): https://issuu.com/railmedia/docs/tre-june-2017

So what is being said is that the equipment has been there for 20 years, with 50+ trains a day, and no 'fault' has manifested itself, and some of those AHB's on the line are busy, yet 14 days after new trains are brought in, multiple issues, yet only 4 or 5 a day running at the most, at the time

 

[Chris125]

So what is being said is that the equipment has been there for 20 years, with 50+ trains a day, and no 'fault' has manifested itself, and some of those AHB's on the line are busy, yet 14 days after new trains are brought in, multiple issues, yet only 4 or 5 a day running at the most, at the time

Perhaps, but is the rolling stock at fault for failing to interact correctly with the signalling or is the signalling at fault for failing to detect a design of train that meets all the relevant standards? Or are both compliant with all relevant standards and it's those at fault, and they should have picked it up during testing?

I guess we'll find out from the RAIB.

 

[eastdyke]

More issues with 755s tonight, nowhere near the Bittern Line (Ipswich, Norwich & Yarmouth, although minor), seems part of the problem is the 'scrubber' .......seems it is working 'in reverse' from what we have heard ! mod needed, and the sander applies under the wrong wheels (non driving)

Went down yesterday, via Norwich to get to Ipswich from ECML.
Good to see the Stadlers nipping in and out of Norwich (Sheringhams excepted), and further progress at Victoria Sidings. RTT now shows booked services in and out of 'Norwich Victoria', clearly 'ghost' paths pending completion.
eg for 23rd Jan:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C01841/2020-01-23/detailed

At Ipswich only 156s evident on E Suffolk and Cambridge duty but was not long there.
Also saw RHTT running yesterday on a path that basically included the Harwich branch (why so??) and Norwich-Cromer, showing that they are being kept on past the planned finish date of 13/12.
Back to ECML via Norwich again, made time for a quick visit to 'The Coach' Every cloud ...

I am still amazed that the headline GA reasons for Ipswich-Peterborough suspension is 'due to major signalling problems across the rural routes ...... ' The travelling public are now quite weary of hearing this and may soon start to query safety of other journeys over the same routes.
Perhaps is rather more snake oil than citrus oil ......

 

[trebor79]

Observed a 755 switch from diesel to electric at Ely this evening. After the pan went up there was a clunk a few seconds later, I guess contactor pulling in, then a little spark on to of the roof near the pan (same sort of little spark you see when the pan first touches the cable). Is there some kind of circuit breaker up there?
After that,I heard at least one engine shut down, bit the power pack became really noisy, sounded like a lot of pumps and fans running flat out. I guess dumping residual heat from the engines? It departed still making a racket. Do they sit down completely eventually?
My train pulled in running on electric but with the engines already running. I guess so they are warm ready for use.

 

[captainbigun]

Once the pan has hit the wire the VCB will set, that’s the clunk/thud. The thud is far louder when the VCB opens. The VCB is a circuit breaker in a vacuum, the mechanism is encased, you wouldn’t see the contacts close. You’ll always see a small arc as the pan hits the contact wire as there’s enough inductance to draw a small amount of current.

 

[trebor79]

Yes it was the little spark I think I saw near the wiggly eyes that bridge the gap between power unit and coach that surprised me.

Saw the result of an 11kV VCB failure on an industrial installation once...

 

[WroxhamTroll]

This bit is interesting........"."In his weekly message to staff, Greater Anglia's managing director Jamie Burles said the speed restrictions would remain in place until Network Rail changed the signalling system, which is different to other lines in the region.

Hard to read this, surely he doesn't mean major changes to a signal system operating for 19 years? Logic says the thing that changed was introducing the 755's

They need to do something fast the bittern line is a joke of a service right now with no end in sight.

WT

 

[LAX54]

Went down yesterday, via Norwich to get to Ipswich from ECML.
Good to see the Stadlers nipping in and out of Norwich (Sheringhams excepted), and further progress at Victoria Sidings. RTT now shows booked services in and out of 'Norwich Victoria', clearly 'ghost' paths pending completion.
eg for 23rd Jan:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C01841/2020-01-23/detailed

At Ipswich only 156s evident on E Suffolk and Cambridge duty but was not long there.
Also saw RHTT running yesterday on a path that basically included the Harwich branch (why so??) and Norwich-Cromer, showing that they are being kept on past the planned finish date of 13/12.
Back to ECML via Norwich again, made time for a quick visit to 'The Coach' Every cloud ...

I am still amazed that the headline GA reasons for Ipswich-Peterborough suspension is 'due to major signalling problems across the rural routes ...... ' The travelling public are now quite weary of hearing this and may soon start to query safety of other journeys over the same routes.
Perhaps is rather more snake oil than citrus oil ......

In TRUST looks like to start with, just one train a day ! 5P54 2033 to Victoria, and stables to form 5P07 the 0537 Victoria to Norwich.

 

[Tim Regester]

According to posts on another forum it's an American 'predictor' system which, if I understand correctly, uses the occupation of track circuits to match the timing of the crossing to the speed of the oncoming train - perhaps this inherently gives slightly variable results especially in Autumn, albeit nothing obviously dangerous occurred until the Stadlers arrived?

So I asked my brother, who not only is an electrical and electronic engineer but used to be a test engineer at Brush Traction about track circuits and his opening sentence was "There are many different systems in use" Suggesting there is no common standard.

Could the increased accelleration and decelleration of the FLIRTs be a contributing factor, the old trains never had this issue because they were far less efficient.

Old Signalling technology, perhaps not well documented, meets modern train technology with leaf mulch thrown into the mix = chaos.

 

[TheEdge]

After that,I heard at least one engine shut down, bit the power pack became really noisy, sounded like a lot of pumps and fans running flat out. I guess dumping residual heat from the engines? It departed still making a racket. Do they sit down completely eventually?
My train pulled in running on electric but with the engines already running. I guess so they are warm ready for use.

When they swap from diesel onto electric the fans go mad trying to cool the engines down, it only lasts for a few minutes max, normally quicker.

Yes, the engines can be started without drawing power from them, as you say to get them warm and running for changeover, special button on the TCMS.

 

[MarkWiles]

Just read elsewhere - so bear that in mind - that another 755 "went missing" tonight, and that on investigation it's believed the sanders are causing problems for the Track Circuit Actuators, which may be what is leading to detection issues - and apparently the sanders are confirmed as being in "the wrong place". The same source also suggested that Network Rail were planning to install treadles on the Cromer branch "without prejudice" to allow normal services to be resumed.

Like I say, make of that what you will but if true, it might mean that AGA have to pop down to Morrisons round the corner from Thorpe to order some humble pie.

 

[LAX54]

Just read elsewhere - so bear that in mind - that another 755 "went missing" tonight, and that on investigation it's believed the sanders are causing problems for the Track Circuit Actuators, which may be what is leading to detection issues - and apparently the sanders are confirmed as being in "the wrong place". The same source also suggested that Network Rail were planning to install treadles on the Cromer branch "without prejudice" to allow normal services to be resumed.

Like I say, make of that what you will but if true, it might mean that AGA have to pop down to Morrisons round the corner from Thorpe to order some humble pie.

We have heard similar from inside GA, the sanders are located in the wrong place, and seemingly do more harm than good, and the brake block style scrubber, actually contaminates rather than cleans, seems needs a mod, we have also heard about the treadles as a 'quick fix' which will assist GA.

 

[eastdyke]

We have heard similar from inside GA, the sanders are located in the wrong place, and seemingly do more harm than good, and the brake block style scrubber, actually contaminates rather than cleans, seems needs a mod, we have also heard about the treadles as a 'quick fix' which will assist GA.

Some, to say the least, 'mixed' news there but fixes should get those services back up and running.

In better news, which I am sure that you already know, ECS ran in Q paths overnight Ipswich-Peterborough and return, seemingly including 'calls' at Manea, March and Whittlesea.
From RTT:
Out 5Q46 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/F31761/2019-12-18/detailed
Back 5Q47 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/F31765/2019-12-19/detailed

More Q paths VSTP for later today (if they run) vice cancelled passenger services:
Out 5Q74 dep IPS 10.01 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O72153/2019-12-19/detailed
Back 5Q75 dep PBO 11.50 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O72154/2019-12-19/detailed

Hope all goes to plan sans 'signalling problems'

 

[eastdyke]

Just read elsewhere - so bear that in mind - that another 755 "went missing" tonight, and that on investigation it's believed the sanders are causing problems for the Track Circuit Actuators, which may be what is leading to detection issues - and apparently the sanders are confirmed as being in "the wrong place". The same source also suggested that Network Rail were planning to install treadles on the Cromer branch "without prejudice" to allow normal services to be resumed.

Like I say, make of that what you will but if true, it might mean that AGA have to pop down to Morrisons round the corner from Thorpe to order some humble pie.

Are the sanders to assist getting the power down or to assist braking though?
I have asked before but have had no answer, which bogies have the Track Circuit Assisters?
I would have expected those to be at the ends the unit?

As you can see, I have already had a piece - just in case!

 

[Abbo]

Went down yesterday, via Norwich to get to Ipswich from ECML.
Good to see the Stadlers nipping in and out of Norwich (Sheringhams excepted), and further progress at Victoria Sidings. RTT now shows booked services in and out of 'Norwich Victoria', clearly 'ghost' paths pending completion.
eg for 23rd Jan:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C01841/2020-01-23/detailed

At Ipswich only 156s evident on E Suffolk and Cambridge duty but was not long there.
Also saw RHTT running yesterday on a path that basically included the Harwich branch (why so??) and Norwich-Cromer, showing that they are being kept on past the planned finish date of 13/12.
Back to ECML via Norwich again, made time for a quick visit to 'The Coach' Every cloud ...

I am still amazed that the headline GA reasons for Ipswich-Peterborough suspension is 'due to major signalling problems across the rural routes ...... ' The travelling public are now quite weary of hearing this and may soon start to query safety of other journeys over the same routes.
Perhaps is rather more snake oil than citrus oil ......

From the good Burghers of Manea and Sheringham to the tune of All I want for Christmas are my two front teeth.

All I want for Christmas is my train set back , my train set back , my train set back etc.

With seasons greetings to all members of this excellent group which I thouroughly enjoy as a newly joined member.