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Abellio Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

hwl

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July's Modern Railways states:
-12-car sets are two six-car sets back to back, with a power bogie each end of the 6-car to make four power bogies in total.
- Confirmed two power bogies on a 3- or 4-car set, one each end.
- One power pack in 3- or 4-car sets.

I think we can therefore conclude that the articulated bogies are unpowered. My guess is that the power packs are all the same, approximating to the rating of the traction motors in the two bogies. These are also of course likely to be the bogies with the lowest axle loads, and no rail conditioning for the one at the front. But you'd expect with their experience of building for Alpine railways Stadler would know about adhesion.

Leading bogie being motored is not smart idea if you want to minimise repair bills and time when you hit things on the line. (Rural areas with lots of level (inc farm) crossings...).

The axle loading and unsprung mass would be very high if they motored the articulated bogies leading to massive track access charges.

The main design driver for Stadler were cost, cost and cost
 
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Bletchleyite

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Leading bogie being motored is not smart idea if you want to minimise repair bills and time when you hit things on the line. (Rural areas with lots of level (inc farm) crossings...).



The axle loading and unsprung mass would be very high if they motored the articulated bogies leading to massive track access charges.



The main design driver for Stadler were cost, cost and cost


Have you ever been on one? Swiss culture is not to design down to a price, these are no exception.
 

Roast Veg

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I don't think it's wrong to say that motored articulated bogies are inherently more complex and heavier than traditional ones, call it cost cutting if you want or just better design.
 

ac6000cw

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The main design driver for Stadler were cost, cost and cost

Engineering design almost always about minimising the production cost whilst meeting the required performance and reliability/lifetime specifications.

Potential customers don't normally come along and ask you design something 'gold-plated', they want something that will do the job at minimum cost. Being able to supply that is the real skill in engineering design - it's what keeps you in business versus your competitors. Stadler wouldn't have grown to the size they are now without being able to do that, especially when they are up against giants with deep pockets like Siemens and Bombardier.
 
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NotATrainspott

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July's Modern Railways states:
-12-car sets are two six-car sets back to back, with a power bogie each end of the 6-car to make four power bogies in total.
- Confirmed two power bogies on a 3- or 4-car set, one each end.
- One power pack in 3- or 4-car sets.

I think we can therefore conclude that the articulated bogies are unpowered. My guess is that the power packs are all the same, approximating to the rating of the traction motors in the two bogies. These are also of course likely to be the bogies with the lowest axle loads, and no rail conditioning for the one at the front. But you'd expect with their experience of building for Alpine railways Stadler would know about adhesion.

Since then, the design for the 12 car sets seems to have changed so that they will be made up of 6 articulated 2-car sections. I don't think there have been changes to the bi-mode units though.
 

Bletchleyite

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Since then, the design for the 12 car sets seems to have changed so that they will be made up of 6 articulated 2-car sections. I don't think there have been changes to the bi-mode units though.

I think the basic statement is correct - they are 6-car sets i.e. separable in that form (though only a cab on one end) as the FLIRT isn't designed for long sets (in terms of the TMS etc) so it is a workaround. However there are more power bogies hence only some articulated joints.
 

ac6000cw

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Since then, the design for the 12 car sets seems to have changed so that they will be made up of 6 articulated 2-car sections. I don't think there have been changes to the bi-mode units though.

Yes, correct, the Stadler info sheets earlier in the thread list the axle arrangements of 12 car EMU sets as:

Bo'2'2'+2'2'2+2'2'Bo+Bo'2'2'+2'2'2+2'2'Bo

...which works out as 6 x 2-car sections.

Does anyone know if the '+' sign implies what it should in this context, that the bogies on the ends of each 2-car section are articulated together in some way?
 

Domh245

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Does anyone know if the '+' sign implies what it should in this context, that the bogies on the ends of each 2-car section are articulated together in some way?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UIC_classification_of_locomotive_axle_arrangements

Plus sign "+"
The locomotive or multiple unit consists of permanently coupled but mechanically separate vehicles.

Ie, where the + is, is where there is a conventional coupling between the cars instead of an articulated section. The fact that there are 3 bogies between each of these implies the articulation
 

Mordac

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At least they're at opposite ends of the train, but yeah for an almost 80m train, two powered bogies is very nearly back to 317-321 standards. Potential WSP problems?

Yeah, I really wonder how they'll cope with leaf fall season. Not exactly filled with confidence by this.

Are these going to be the first UK D(E)MUs to have some coaches with only non-motorized bogies?

EDIT: Clarified the stupid grammar ambiguity in my question.
 
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ac6000cw

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Yeah, I really wonder how they'll cope with leaf fall season. Not exactly filled with confidence by this.

Are these going to be the first UK D(E)MUs not to have coaches with non-motorized bogies?

Not DEMU, but most of the 1950/60s BR DMUs were a mixture of powered and non-powered cars. It was the 2nd generation BR DMUs that started the 'all vehicles powered' trend in the UK.
 

dp21

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Yeah, I really wonder how they'll cope with leaf fall season. Not exactly filled with confidence by this.

Are these going to be the first UK D(E)MUs to have some coaches with only non-motorized bogies?

EDIT: Clarified the stupid grammar ambiguity in my question.

Surely this won't make a difference; isn't the issue in leaf fall braking and thus as long as units are fitted with sufficient Wheel Slide Protection they should be fine?
 

Mordac

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Surely this won't make a difference; isn't the issue in leaf fall braking and thus as long as units are fitted with sufficient Wheel Slide Protection they should be fine?

If you think about it for a second, you'll realize why lack of adhesion is as much a problem for getting the train moving as it is for getting it to stop.
 

dp21

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If you think about it for a second, you'll realize why lack of adhesion is as much a problem for getting the train moving as it is for getting it to stop.

I am fully aware it's a problem for acceleration but trust me, stopping is a much bigger problem.

I had a fleet completely crippled by railhead adhesion because of wheel slide, not wheel slip. Flats are the enemy. We never have any real problem with unit damage from wheel slip. Ok might lose a couple mins here and there from slip but not whole branches taken out of use due to the rate of damage incurred.

The 156 fitted with WSP suffered no slide damage at all this past autumn so I genuinely think the issue is more with braking than acceleration.

Willing to be proven wrong though.
 

Grumbler

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Since then, the design for the 12 car sets seems to have changed so that they will be made up of 6 articulated 2-car sections. I don't think there have been changes to the bi-mode units though.

Why are the articulated sections so short? The bi-modes are articulated throughout. Or are they looking to the future when the trains might need more powered bogies?

Also I notice that the wheel diameters of the non-articlated bogies are different according to whether they are powered or not. Does this mean the cars won't be level?
 

dp21

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Why are the articulated sections so short? The bi-modes are articulated throughout. Or are they looking to the future when the trains might need more powered bogies?

Also I notice that the wheel diameters of the non-articlated bogies are different according to whether they are powered or not. Does this mean the cars won't be level?

Stadler said that the units aren't fully articulated as per the likes of the Eurostar 373s for crash energy absorption purposes. They didn't go into full detail so I can't say I know exactly how it all works but apparently that's the case. Doesn't explain why the 3 and 4 car BMUs are all articulated as a comparison though. Maybe the greater weight of the longer train?
 

Alfie1014

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I see from this month's Modern Railways that the design of the IC sets has been tweeked to move one toilet into the First Class area, (which makes sense) and that a mock up of an Aventra should be unveiled 'later this summer'.
 

Grumbler

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I see from this month's Modern Railways that the design of the IC sets has been tweeked to move one toilet into the First Class area, (which makes sense) and that a mock up of an Aventra should be unveiled 'later this summer'.

Why? People who can afford to travel first get their flunkies in second to go to the loo on their behalf!
 
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Why? People who can afford to travel first get their flunkies in second to go to the loo on their behalf!

Sorry, that was us traincrews fault not wanting to have to explain that they would have to do so for the next c.30 years :D
 

Bornin1980s

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Stadler said that the units aren't fully articulated as per the likes of the Eurostar 373s for crash energy absorption purposes. They didn't go into full detail so I can't say I know exactly how it all works but apparently that's the case. Doesn't explain why the 3 and 4 car BMUs are all articulated as a comparison though. Maybe the greater weight of the longer train?

Actually, the Eurostar 373 is built the same way, with a non articulated join in the middle. The two halves can separate and move independently in an emergency; there is always a qualified driver at both ends.

Regarding an earlier question about wheel size, I don't think having smaller non driving wheels should affect levels inside. After all, the Class 40 locomotives had smaller non driving wheels on the same bogies as the driving wheels. That said, the Stadlers will not be entirely level inside because of the low main floor.
 

Bornin1980s

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Personally, I am a dieselhead, so my interest in these trains really stems from the unusual diesel engine layout. I have been wondering if they would use the Deutz V8s, which are very different from the usual DMU engines (I've noticed that the V8 layout is rare in rail applications). However, I am concerned about their 945 mm width. Since these trains would require two side-by-side, and the power car is 2815 mm wide, I wonder if that would leave enough room for the gangway. In an attempt to gauge the room required, I measured a wheelchair last week. Turned out to be just under 620 mm wide. Might it be better to go back to straight six engines for space-saving reasons in the UK loading gauge. That said, I was surprised to see the Italian units quoted at 2.82 m wide, about the same width as the widest UK trains. I thought all foreign trains were very wide.

I also wonder about fuel consumption. You see, assuming two 16 L engines are used, that is an increase of 4 L of displacement compared to a 156 unit. The power, however, is more than doubled, from 570 hp total to over 1200. Use a four engined four car Stadler, and the difference is even greater. Might we see a repeat of fuel consumption complaints made when the 185's took over from 158s on Trans-Pennine services?

Also, why are all the power modules the same length? This would mean wasted space in the twin engined units.
 

dp21

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Also, why are all the power modules the same length? This would mean wasted space in the twin engined units.

Perhaps it's a measure to save costs? Why make two different ones when you can make them the same?
 

edwin_m

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Personally, I am a dieselhead, so my interest in these trains really stems from the unusual diesel engine layout. I have been wondering if they would use the Deutz V8s, which are very different from the usual DMU engines (I've noticed that the V8 layout is rare in rail applications). However, I am concerned about their 945 mm width. Since these trains would require two side-by-side, and the power car is 2815 mm wide, I wonder if that would leave enough room for the gangway. In an attempt to gauge the room required, I measured a wheelchair last week. Turned out to be just under 620 mm wide. Might it be better to go back to straight six engines for space-saving reasons in the UK loading gauge. That said, I was surprised to see the Italian units quoted at 2.82 m wide, about the same width as the widest UK trains. I thought all foreign trains were very wide.

I also wonder about fuel consumption. You see, assuming two 16 L engines are used, that is an increase of 4 L of displacement compared to a 156 unit. The power, however, is more than doubled, from 570 hp total to over 1200. Use a four engined four car Stadler, and the difference is even greater. Might we see a repeat of fuel consumption complaints made when the 185's took over from 158s on Trans-Pennine services?

Also, why are all the power modules the same length? This would mean wasted space in the twin engined units.

I think the requirement for a wheelchair to pass through is about 900mm. Some wheelchairs may be wider and there needs to be room for the user to turn the wheels with their hands. However, there is no requirement for a wheelchair to pass through the gangway as long as there is an accessible route between the wheelchair space and the accessible toilet, which are always next to each other.
 

dk1

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I see from this month's Modern Railways that the design of the IC sets has been tweeked to move one toilet into the First Class area, (which makes sense) and that a mock up of an Aventra should be unveiled 'later this summer'.

Yeah I've just read that. Common sense prevails. The buffet (Bistro) is being moved between Standard & First too. Now whoever thought that was a good idea :roll: These things seem basic to me & cannot understand the logic in changing them from a product that works now. Also irritates me that I work for them & find more information each month from this magazine.
 

LAX54

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I have heard, and so nor sure how true it is, or not, that the new stock is out of gauge for some of the GEML stations and Ipswich Tunnel ?
 

jopsuk

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New stock, that hasn't been built yet, is out of gauge? That sounds like daft rumour mongering.
 

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