Abellio Scotrail to Berwick?

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by darloscott, 16 Aug 2015.

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  1. darloscott

    darloscott Member

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    Have done a quick search and can't find any mention of this?
    It appears Scotrail want to extend their Dunbar services to Berwick upon Tweed from May 2016.
    These appear to be roughly 2 hourly during the day, although their application also seems to be wanting to take over the morning XC operated Dunbar-Glasgow service...

    What's everyone's thoughts on this?
    A stopping service right down the ECML between Edinburgh & Newcastle / York would be a great aspiration in a few years if capacity could be found!
     
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  3. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Berwick or North Berwick?
     
  4. darloscott

    darloscott Member

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  5. Blindtraveler

    Blindtraveler Established Member

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    An ECML Scotland Newcastle stopper would be a good idea. No need for more than that as theres already plenty of trains going south from there. Berwick on tweed is a good start for sure and if they want XCs Dunbar Glasgow I cant see this being a big issue iether.
     
  6. backontrack

    backontrack Established Member

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    The stoppers could call at East Linton, Reston, (possibly) Belford and Chathill.
     
  7. Altnabreac

    Altnabreac Established Member

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    This was a priced option in the Scotrail ITT back in 2014:

    This is what was then included in the Franchise Agrement with Abellio:

    http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...Redacted Franchise Agreement - CU version.pdf

    The new stations at East Linton and Reston are not guarenteed funding but have to bid for cash from the Scottish Stations Fund. No word yet on which projects are being funded but you can see the joint East Lothian / Scottish Borders bid document here:
    http://www.scotborders.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/7663/scottish_stations_fund_bid
     
  8. Blindtraveler

    Blindtraveler Established Member

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    Should the services extend to Newcastle, is there the capacity at Central Station for an approx 2 hourly terminating EMU from the North? Asking as I genuinely am not well aquainted with opperations and available space at NCL.
     
  9. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Should be OK, there's a reasonable length north facing bay platform 1 alongside the main down through platform 2. I think as always the problem is line capacity between Newcastle and Berwick.
     
  10. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    I think another thing that could be done is to extend the Northern Chathill service up to Berwick. Then the 2 TOC's would meet at Berwick and there could be a 3rd platform split into 2 at Berwick (I seem to remember there's space for that). If a convenient interchange between ScotRail and Northern stoppers was worked out then it should be good.
     
  11. gordonthemoron

    gordonthemoron Established Member

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    aside from the fact that there are only 2 northern stoppers per day
     
  12. Blindtraveler

    Blindtraveler Established Member

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    Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
    And if a nippy little 380 were to do those rather than a slow accelerating pacer or sprinter with a lower cruising speed I can see Northern being releaved of those 2 services.
     
  13. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    is there much of the line between Newcastle & Edinburgh with a line speed above 100mph?
     
  14. gordonthemoron

    gordonthemoron Established Member

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    don't think there's any over 100mph
     
  15. Blindtraveler

    Blindtraveler Established Member

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    Wouldnt be a huge issue for this service though as 100 is the best youl get out of a 380.
     
  16. hibtastic

    hibtastic Member

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    The 380s wont be there for long - they are due to be replaced on the east coast by AT200s as far as I know.

    Glad to see East Linton included, its about time they reopened the station there.
     
    Last edited: 17 Aug 2015
  17. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    Oh yes there is! :lol:

    The majority of Berwick to Morpeth is 100-125, Morpeth to Heaton is nearly all 100+ as well. It's only really north of Berwick where 100+ running becomes more limited, but even then there are plenty of stretches between 100-125.
     
    Last edited: 17 Aug 2015
  18. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    The line speed varies between 100 and 125 for much of Pegswood to Tweedmouth.
     
  19. Liam

    Liam Established Member

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    110 through Drem IIRC.
     
  20. Romilly

    Romilly Established Member

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  21. route:oxford

    route:oxford Established Member

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    Time to sort out the Morpeth Curve with a bypass?

    Stoppers via Morpeth and expresses via bypass should help a little.
     
  22. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    Aye, it would be nice but I don't hold out much hope of it happening any time soon.
     
  23. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Established Member

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    Should have guessed this would come up.
    My proposal (however hypothetical) would be that Northern extended all their services that go north of Newcastle up to Berwick, meaning they would skip various stations on the way.

    However, with the stock only being pacers, ScotRail taking all of it over up to Newcastle would be the best option.
     
  24. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member Associate Staff General Discussion

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    Slightly off-topic, but does anyone remember the Carlisle-Hexham-Newcastle-Berwick-Edinburgh loco hauled "local" service that ran in the early eighties?
     
  25. Stats

    Stats Member

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    The aspiration is to extend the TPE service north, not Northern. The problem at the moment is Network Rail believe that one inter-urban/non-London LDHS path north of Newcastle is the correct use of available capacity, and XC have that.
     
  26. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    And as annoying as XC can be, taking the path away from them would be a mistake.
     
  27. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    On Sundays there are currently four Edinburgh to Newcastle (and beyond) paths in some hours plus a local train to North Berwick.
     
  28. glbotu

    glbotu Member

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    I'm a bit at a loss to see what's eating up the paths between Newcastle and Berwick?

    North of Newcastle, you get:

    1tph Morpeth Stopper
    1tph XC
    3tp2h EC

    Giving a maximum of 4tph. I believe each alternate hour has a freight path (so it's always 4tph). Is the signalling in the area so spaced out that they can't handle 5tph?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    However, in those hours, the extra Intercity train takes up the path of the Morpeth stopper.
     
  29. Stats

    Stats Member

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    The capacity issues are mostly between Berwick and Edinburgh. The issues between Berwick and Newcastle are mostly to do with speed differentials of freight and local services compared with intercity services and calling patterns. I would have thought you could introduce a service from Berwick stopping at Alnmouth, Morpeth and Cramlington, but it may need to stop in a freight loop to allow an intercity service to overtake. This presents problems if one service is late.

    Between Berwick and Edinburgh, Network Rail describes the capacity constraints in a letter to the ORR for the ECML track applications:

    http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/17974/east-coast-letter-20-05-15.pdf

     
  30. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    Which doesn't run on Sundays.

    However the 13:00 has a different pattern with departures at 13:00, 13:06, 13:30 and 13:55 all to Newcastle (and beyond)

    as where as the 12:00 hour has

    12:00, 12:06, 12:20, 12:30 all to Newcastle (and beyond).

    There must be a slot available at either:20 or :55 in all (Sunday) hours as these slots are not used in the same or indeed all hours.
     
  31. Gareth_inBlyth

    Gareth_inBlyth Member

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    Would it not be better to do some transport planning for Northumberland, rather than treat our rail network as someone's private trainset?

    Bypassing Morpeth curve so people from outside Northumberland can get over Northumberland more quickly is the kind of selfish thinking that gives us HS2 for the benefit of Londoners but no trains at all for the largest towns in Northumberland.

    If there's spare investment capacity a new station at Cramlington, as mooted since the 70s would help if it featured a three road layout so fast trains could pass through unhindered by stationary trains.

    If there's spare investment capacity sorting out Benton Junction so that trains from the AB&T can join the national network or move freely onto (and off) the old Tyneside network would help. A Morpeth bypass would be a very low priority on my list of improvements, after (for instance) electrifying Tyne Valley and the AB&T so that you could run a modern, efficient Haltwhistle to Ashington service, or re-nstating heavy rail through South Gosforth to the airport.

    What do I know though? I only live here.
     
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