Abellio Scotrail to Berwick?

[najaB]

...the kind of selfish thinking that gives us HS2 for the benefit of Londoners...

Sigh, here we go again. What about all the people from 'oop norf' who can get to London and the south faster (it isn't all about bankers getting to their second homes)? What about all the capacity that is released on the existing ECML/WCML to improve local connectivity? How about the later extensions (HS3/HS4) that bring high-speed rail all the way to the North and Scotland?

The simple fact is that London is the capital and economic hub, the only way to change that is to improve connectivity to the secondary cities - HS2 is the first step in doing just that.

/RANT

 

[Gareth_inBlyth]

Sigh, here we go again. What about all the people from 'oop norf' who can get to London and the south faster (it isn't all about bankers getting to their second homes)? What about all the capacity that is released on the existing ECML/WCML to improve local connectivity? How about the later extensions (HS3/HS4) that bring high-speed rail all the way to the North and Scotland?

The simple fact is that London is the capital and economic hub, the only way to change that is to improve connectivity to the secondary cities - HS2 is the first step in doing just that.

/RANT

Spare me the unsupported assertions masquerading as superior knowledge. You appear to be suggesting that the transport hierarchy is London first, secondary cities second, and counties like Northumberland never. Why should that be? The ECML only goes through one of the three largest towns in Northumberland - but inter city trains can't stop there due to the restricted platforms - the others have no train service at all. Freeing up capacity on the ECML doesn;t actually help towns that have no train service. Why should we wait because you believe, without evidence, that cities should come first?

 

[najaB]

Why should we wait because you believe, without evidence, that cities should come first?

Newcastle: population 289,835, Morpeth: population 14,017.

 

[adrock1976]

Don't forget that Morpeth is the administrative centre of Northumberland, likewise Glenrothes being the administrative centre of Fife (which has very little services to London from the Markinch side on the main line), which has a population of 35k.

 

[Gareth_inBlyth]

Newcastle: population 289,835, Morpeth: population 14,017.

Newcastle isn't in Northumberland.

Newcastle has already had huge investments in its local rail, via Metro. Why shouldn't Northumberland get the same level of investment?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't forget that Morpeth is the administrative centre of Northumberland, likewise Glenrothes being the administrative centre of Fife (which has very little services to London from the Markinch side on the main line), which has a population of 35k.

Dokeep up, the county council is planning to leave Morpeth in 2017/18, to move to the market towns of the Tyne Valley and the north,and to Ashington.

 

[najaB]

Newcastle has already had huge investments in its local rail, via Metro. Why shouldn't Northumberland get the same level of investment?

Why? Because there isn't a bottomless pit of money. £1 spent on infrastructure in a large urban area will benefit more people than £1 spent in a small urban area. £1 spent in a city benefits many times the number of people as £1 spent in a rural area.

Bad deal for people in rural areas? Yup. Is it likely to change soon? Nope.

 

[Chrism20]

Roughly 315,000 people in the entire, mostly rural county versus 289,000 in the large city of Newcastle dictates where and how the money is spent.

Berwick, Alnmouth and Morpeth have the type of intercity services most counties can only dream about. The county as a whole is far from hard done by.

More could be done for a few areas such as Cramlington and the surrounding area however the cost of it could could make it poor value.

 

[glbotu]

Newcastle isn't in Northumberland.

Newcastle has already had huge investments in its local rail, via Metro. Why shouldn't Northumberland get the same level of investment?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Dokeep up, the county council is planning to leave Morpeth in 2017/18, to move to the market towns of the Tyne Valley and the north,and to Ashington.

Just to make the point, the Tyne and Wear metro is designed to serve the Tyne and Wear metropolitan area, a population of 1.6 million.

 

[Tommy1581]

Newcastle: population 289,835, Morpeth: population 14,017.

Also you have to take into account passengers who travel to Morpeth to catch a train from surrounding towns like Ashington, Bedlington, Newbiggin etc

Morpeth, in my opinion, has a poor rail service. Hourly stopper services to and from Metro Centre which often get full. More stopper services to Newcastle (or to the North like Alnmouth/Berwick/Edinburgh) would be great. Local and intertribal Arriva buses to Alnwick/Berwick usually leave Morpeth with standees.

 

[adrock1976]

Newcastle isn't in Northumberland.

Newcastle has already had huge investments in its local rail, via Metro. Why shouldn't Northumberland get the same level of investment?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Dokeep up, the county council is planning to leave Morpeth in 2017/18, to move to the market towns of the Tyne Valley and the north,and to Ashington.

My bold.

Depends what year you were born in. For those who were born before 1st April 1974, Newcastle-upon-Tyne was part of Northumberland.

A friend of mine who is originally from Sunderland, was born in 1966, and does not recognise Sunderland as being in present day Tyne & Wear County Council [sic] area. He recognises it as being in County Durham, of which it was before 1974.

My mum, who was born in Birmingham back in 1939 (and my original neck of the woods), recognises Birmingham as being part of Warwickshire.

This is similar to me not recognising the present residents of Buckingham Palace, as I did not get a say or a vote as to whether there should be a monarchy or not, but that is for a different thread for the General Discussion section.

On a final point, Tyne & Wear PTE is the smallest PTE area, which may explain how there appears to be a perception of a lack of investment, as it would benefit less numbers of people compared to Strathclyde, Merseyside, Greater Manchester, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, and West Midlands PTE areas. Perhaps Tyne & Wear PTE needs to consider working with Northumberland County Council, County Durham CC, and Cleveland/Teeside/whatever it is constituted as these days? Or perhaps extending the PTE area and be re-named as Tyne-Tees and Wearside?

 

[Stats]

On a final point, Tyne & Wear PTE is the smallest PTE area, which may explain how there appears to be a perception of a lack of investment, as it would benefit less numbers of people compared to Strathclyde, Merseyside, Greater Manchester, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, and West Midlands PTE areas. Perhaps Tyne & Wear PTE needs to consider working with Northumberland County Council, County Durham CC, and Cleveland/Teeside/whatever it is constituted as these days? Or perhaps extending the PTE area and be re-named as Tyne-Tees and Wearside?

They are, or at least with Northumberland and Co Durham. Nexus, aka Tyne and Wear PTE, is responsible for delivering the transport functions and strategy development of the North East Combined Authority.

 

[Gareth_inBlyth]

Roughly 315,000 people in the entire, mostly rural county versus 289,000 in the large city of Newcastle dictates where and how the money is spent.

Berwick, Alnmouth and Morpeth have the type of intercity services most counties can only dream about. The county as a whole is far from hard done by.

More could be done for a few areas such as Cramlington and the surrounding area however the cost of it could could make it poor value.

The county is mostly rural, but the population is mostly urban.

 

[swt_passenger]

My bold.

Depends what year you were born in. For those who were born before 1st April 1974, Newcastle-upon-Tyne was part of Northumberland.

Pre 1974, and since 1400 or so, Newcastle was a 'City and County', and not legally part of Northumberland.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Roughly 315,000 people in the entire, mostly rural county versus 289,000 in the large city of Newcastle dictates where and how the money is spent.

Berwick, Alnmouth and Morpeth have the type of intercity services most counties can only dream about. The county as a whole is far from hard done by.

More could be done for a few areas such as Cramlington and the surrounding area however the cost of it could could make it poor value.

Whilst Berwick, Alnwick and Morpeth are all relatively small towns in their own right, they are effectively the railheads for most of north-east Northumberland. Morpeth is the railhead for Blyth, Ashington and Bedlington, Berwick covers a big chunk of the Borders as well as far north Northumberland and Alnmouth covers the middle of the county.

Travel to Edinburgh or Newcastle isn't too bad, with an hourly service during the day. Inter-county travel on the trains is extremely difficult though. There are very few trains which stop at all three stations in Northumberland, and these tend to be at the start or the end of the day. Links between Berwick, Alnwick and Morpeth are very poor. There isn't a train that calls at both Berwick and Alnmouth between 1149 and 1749; there isn't a train that calls at both Berwick and Morpeth between 1048 and 1917.

The weekday service at Cramlington isn't an issue, it's hourly all day both north and south, and I don't see that that needs improvement.

The idea of installing a Morpeth by-pass is a very poor use of money though. The slowing down for the curve doesn't cost that much time. I'd rather see the Blyth & Tyne re-open, with an hourly train each way round the loop, long before we spend the huge sums needed to ease the curve at Morpeth.

I still think the best use of the capacity is 1tph XC and 1tph VTEC non-stop Edinburgh-Newcastle, 1tph Scotrail/Northern semi-fast (Dunbar, Berwick, Alnmouth, Morpeth, Cramlington) with occasional stops at the small stations north of Morpeth.

To get slightly back on topic, I'm not sure of the point of Scotrail running as far as Berwick upon Tweed. It seems a waste of paths. If they're not going to run semi-fast all the way to Newcastle I don't see the point of extending the Scotrail trains beyond Dunbar.

 

[fgwrich]

Whilst Berwick, Alnwick and Morpeth are all relatively small towns in their own right, they are effectively the railheads for most of north-east Northumberland. Morpeth is the railhead for Blyth, Ashington and Bedlington, Berwick covers a big chunk of the Borders as well as far north Northumberland and Alnmouth covers the middle of the county.

Travel to Edinburgh or Newcastle isn't too bad, with an hourly service during the day. Inter-county travel on the trains is extremely difficult though. There are very few trains which stop at all three stations in Northumberland, and these tend to be at the start or the end of the day. Links between Berwick, Alnwick and Morpeth are very poor. There isn't a train that calls at both Berwick and Alnmouth between 1149 and 1749; there isn't a train that calls at both Berwick and Morpeth between 1048 and 1917.

I'm glad someone has pointed this out at last in this subject. Yes, the populations of the towns may be small, but to find any service that can take you from station to station is difficult. Most will either call at Berwick but not Alnmouth or Morpeth. Or Alnmouth but not Berwick or Morpeth etc. The skip stop skip pattern of present means that if your going to Newcastle or Edinburgh that's fine. But if your going from Edinburgh to Alnmouth or Berwick to Morpeth it's not easy at all.

So a possible service from Edinburgh to Berwick with the potential of going further? I'd welcome it if the right investment to run such a service was introduced with it!

 

[najaB]

I'm glad someone has pointed this out at last in this subject. Yes, the populations of the towns may be small, but to find any service that can take you from station to station is difficult. Most will either call at Berwick but not Alnmouth or Morpeth. Or Alnmouth but not Berwick or Morpeth etc. The skip stop skip pattern of present means that if your going to Newcastle or Edinburgh that's fine. But if your going from Edinburgh to Alnmouth or Berwick to Morpeth it's not easy at all.

This was highlighted for me a while back when a lady boarded the train I was on at Newcastle with the intention to go to Morpeth. Unfortunately for her, the first stop was Berwick-on-Tweed. I can't remember the exact times, but the guard checked the timetables and it would have taken something like three or four hours for her to be able to get back to Morpeth. Needless to say, she called her husband/partner to come pick her up instead.

 

[Graeme]

I still think the best use of the capacity is 1tph XC and 1tph VTEC non-stop Edinburgh-Newcastle, 1tph Scotrail/Northern semi-fast (Dunbar, Berwick, Alnmouth, Morpeth, Cramlington) with occasional stops at the small stations north of Morpeth.

Anything that can be provided would be an improvement for the likes of Pegswood, Widdrington and Acklington. I live between the latter two stations and would love to use Northern Rail more, but their services don't fit in with my working day. Currently for commuters heading south there is only one morning train to Newcastle (dep. Widdrington at 0746) and one return trip (dep. Newcastle at 1738, which gets held in the loop just north of Morpeth for around five or six minutes every night to allow a VTEC service to pass by).

As there are only around six or seven passengers getting on at Widdrington each morning, I can't see the situation changing. I suspect many who live in my neck of the woods who have to endure the 1 hour 20 minute bus ride into Newcastle would prefer a 35-minute long train ride instead, but there's simply no flexibility in the timetable, nor presumably scope to fit extra ones in around the much faster VTEC and XC services. Maybe I should have mentioned something to Alex Hynes when I clocked him using the 1538 Carlisle-Newcastle service (a Pacer!) on Friday afternoon!

 

[Starmill]

To get slightly back on topic, I'm not sure of the point of Scotrail running as far as Berwick upon Tweed. It seems a waste of paths. If they're not going to run semi-fast all the way to Newcastle I don't see the point of extending the Scotrail trains beyond Dunbar.

How else are Reston and East Linton to be served (excluding the obvious answer of 'do they really need to be?')?

 

[clc]

Confirmation on the Scotrail website that the new Hitachi EMUs will operate to Berwick:-

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-scotrail/new-trains