about SBB Re4/4, Re6/6, EWII withdrawal and replacement trains

Stephen Lee

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Anyone know if withdrawal of SBB Re4/4, Re6/6, EWII has started and what coaches in SBB are now replacement trains?
Also what will replace the SBB Re4/4, Re6/6 and EWII?
 
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dm1

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Re 4/4 and Re 6/6 won't be completely withdrawn for a long while yet. EW II are almost completely gone already (I think there is a set or two still around for use as a spare where the normal spares aren't available).

Coaching stock is mostly EW IV and IC 2000 (currently being extensively refurbished into IC 2020). The latter only operate with Re 460. There are also a couple of sets of DPZ coaches operating with refurbished Re 4/4 locos at each end for peak services on the Zurich S-Bahn. These were formed from the coaches removed from the original DPZ sets when new coaches with level boarding were built and inserted into them.

On long distance services most new trains are now EMUs, mainly the much maligned and very late FVDs (Bombardier Twindexx, not to be confused with the German ones which are very different). For international services to Italy, new Stadler Giruno trains (with level boarding at two platform heights!) have largely replaced the older Astoro (ETR 610) tilting trains, which have been cascaded to replace coaching stock running to Munich, now electrified.

The latest order to start replacing Re 4/4 and EW IV are new Stadler KISS EMUs, but they won't be delivered for a few years yet. SBB appears to have decided not to call any of the options on the FVD tender.

As far as I know Re 6/6 are mostly used on freight services, but occasionally end up pulling sleeper trains.
 

43096

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Anyone know if withdrawal of SBB Re4/4, Re6/6, EWII has started and what coaches in SBB are now replacement trains?
Also what will replace the SBB Re4/4, Re6/6 and EWII?
EWII stock has all come out of service, I think. “Ersatzzug” stock is now often EWIV.

With regard to the locos, passenger sector Re4/4 withdrawals have started, unsurprisingly with the double deck IC/IR units finally entering service.

Cargo locos is more complicated as it is now two businesses, SBB Cargo and SBB Cargo International (SBBIN). The international business owns no locos, leasing everything including from Cargo. The opening of the Gotthard base tunnels has had a big effect as SBBIN has leased over 40 multi system Vectrons to allow through operation to/from Germany and Italy. It has returned all its Re4/4 and Re6/6 to Cargo which has allowed Cargo to rationalise its fleet (non-ETCS fitted Re6/6 being stored for example). SBBIN is likely to return its Re484 TRAXX to Cargo and instead lease more ES64F4 from MRCE. The Re484 would go to domestic services, displacing more Re4/4 and Re6/6.
 

Stephen Lee

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EWII stock has all come out of service, I think. “Ersatzzug” stock is now often EWIV.

With regard to the locos, passenger sector Re4/4 withdrawals have started, unsurprisingly with the double deck IC/IR units finally entering service.

Cargo locos is more complicated as it is now two businesses, SBB Cargo and SBB Cargo International (SBBIN). The international business owns no locos, leasing everything including from Cargo. The opening of the Gotthard base tunnels has had a big effect as SBBIN has leased over 40 multi system Vectrons to allow through operation to/from Germany and Italy. It has returned all its Re4/4 and Re6/6 to Cargo which has allowed Cargo to rationalise its fleet (non-ETCS fitted Re6/6 being stored for example). SBBIN is likely to return its Re484 TRAXX to Cargo and instead lease more ES64F4 from MRCE. The Re484 would go to domestic services, displacing more Re4/4 and Re6/6.
Why don't SBBC order more Vectron?

Re 4/4 and Re 6/6 won't be completely withdrawn for a long while yet. EW II are almost completely gone already (I think there is a set or two still around for use as a spare where the normal spares aren't available).

Coaching stock is mostly EW IV and IC 2000 (currently being extensively refurbished into IC 2020). The latter only operate with Re 460. There are also a couple of sets of DPZ coaches operating with refurbished Re 4/4 locos at each end for peak services on the Zurich S-Bahn. These were formed from the coaches removed from the original DPZ sets when new coaches with level boarding were built and inserted into them.

On long distance services most new trains are now EMUs, mainly the much maligned and very late FVDs (Bombardier Twindexx, not to be confused with the German ones which are very different). For international services to Italy, new Stadler Giruno trains (with level boarding at two platform heights!) have largely replaced the older Astoro (ETR 610) tilting trains, which have been cascaded to replace coaching stock running to Munich, now electrified.

The latest order to start replacing Re 4/4 and EW IV are new Stadler KISS EMUs, but they won't be delivered for a few years yet. SBB appears to have decided not to call any of the options on the FVD tender.

As far as I know Re 6/6 are mostly used on freight services, but occasionally end up pulling sleeper trains.
That means the EWIV will be scrapped? Btw what will be used for Ersatzzug then?
 

43096

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Why don't SBBC order more Vectron?
SBB Cargo don't have any Vectrons... It's SBB Cargo International that have them. They are two separate organisations.

Longer term, it's a reasonable punt to think that the Re482 TRAXX and Re484 TRAXX will move to SBBC (Re484 move is already planned to happen) as SBBIN take on a more flexible fleet that can be used in Germany, Switzerland and Italy (and Netherlands, too in many cases).
 

43096

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I've never seen SBBIN used to refer to them. Their Vehicle Keeper Marking is SBBCI.
SBBCI is the VKM for SBB Cargo Italia, which is one of the operating subsidiaries that make up SBB Cargo International and hold the country operating licences.

Based on posts elsewhere on the web, SBBIN is used to refer to SBB Cargo International, including by the Swiss regulatory authorities.
 

Stephen Lee

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Eventually yes.

Then EMUs will be used, most likely. That already happens today fairly extensively.
what about the control car? Maybe use with the EC coaches?

SBB Cargo don't have any Vectrons... It's SBB Cargo International that have them. They are two separate organisations.

Longer term, it's a reasonable punt to think that the Re482 TRAXX and Re484 TRAXX will move to SBBC (Re484 move is already planned to happen) as SBBIN take on a more flexible fleet that can be used in Germany, Switzerland and Italy (and Netherlands, too in many cases).
what about Re474 and the 185 and 186 hired from MRCE and Macquarie respectively?

SBB Cargo don't have any Vectrons... It's SBB Cargo International that have them. They are two separate organisations.

Longer term, it's a reasonable punt to think that the Re482 TRAXX and Re484 TRAXX will move to SBBC (Re484 move is already planned to happen) as SBBIN take on a more flexible fleet that can be used in Germany, Switzerland and Italy (and Netherlands, too in many cases).
I think the theory you mentioned is also true for other Cargo operators like RailCargo Group, BLS Cargo, DB Cargo etc., i.e. replacing an old fleet with a new flexible fleet
 
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43096

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what about Re474 and the 185 and 186 hired from MRCE and Macquarie respectively?
Technically the 474s are from SBB Cargo; I assume you mean the 189s from MRCE? The only 186s they hire are from Akiem for the ROLA services operated with BLS; do they even hire any 185s?

SBBIN seem to be preferring Siemens locos with the Vectrons and more 189s (ES64F4) coming in and the 484s dropping out.
 

dm1

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Ersatzzuege tend to be DOO, don't they? I don't think EW IV can be operated DOO.
I don't know the details, but I'm guessing they are crewed the same as the planned train where possible. I've definitely seen Ersatzzüge with EW IV that have guards/conductors.
 

Jamesrob637

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Have any SBB Mark 4s been sent for scrap yet other than accident damage? The earliest ones date from the late-80s however they are still exceptionally good coaches.
 

zuriblue

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Ersatzzuege tend to be DOO, don't they? I don't think EW IV can be operated DOO.
If it's classed IR or IC there will be a guard no matter what the stock is. Basel have a Random Unit Generator that Northern would envy, the IR36 (Basel - Zürich via Frick) regularly sees RABe511 (Stadler KISS) but still runs with a guard even though they cannot close the doors.
 

raetiamann

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One of the strengths of the Swiss system was to be able to add extra coaches to cope with demand at busy times with two or three coaches, including driving trailer, slotted onto a train, the the locomotive working fron front, back or even within the set. On one occasion I was staying in Thalwil when a rush hour commuter service from Luzern to Zuerich arrived with a 460 pulling a Dosto set which had attached a full rake of EW1V, plus 4 further coaches on the tail of that. It overhung Thalwil station platform. I assume such flexibility will be lost, which is odd as SBB pioneered over door sensors counting passenger numbers on/off trains and even movement within the trains, thus allowing a statistical descision to strengthen or not.
 

dm1

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The platforms at Thalwil have been somewhat controversially shortened to 300m usable length during level-boarding platform height adjustments (there is a very active rolling programme of rebuilding platforms to the Swiss 55cm standard, due to equality legislation that comes into force in January 2024 that requires unassisted boarding for passengers in wheelchairs to be available at all stations).

300m is the standard length for regional services, 400m for intercity and international services (this refers to the maximum permitted train length, the platforms are of course slightly longer).


The SBB have been gradually moving away from strengthening services in this way (using "modules" and individual coaches), with EMUs at standard lengths being coupled instead.

The new FVD trains are mostly 200m long, but there are also 100m units precisely in order to be able to lengthen sets where necessary. This is also slightly controversial due to the two extra cabs required that don't do anything as well as the reduced seating capacity in the FVDs compared to IC2000 per coach. These 100m trains aren't supposed to ever be used on their own, but this has been known to happen during disruption and during the times where the FVD reliability and MDBF (mean distance between failures) was extremely poor resulting in poor availability.

The IR service between Zurich and Luzern has extremely high demand and this new, artificial length limitation to 300m is beginning to prove somewhat problematic.

The IR36 does have a lot of variation in the rolling stock used - I've seen everything from EW IV + Re 420. ICN, FVD, and RVD on the route. The new Giruno sets have also been used for shakedown runs and driver familiarisation upon entry to passenger service after delivery, before they were transferred to the international services to Italy.
 

Stephen Lee

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EWII stock has all come out of service, I think. “Ersatzzug” stock is now often EWIV.

With regard to the locos, passenger sector Re4/4 withdrawals have started, unsurprisingly with the double deck IC/IR units finally entering service.

Cargo locos is more complicated as it is now two businesses, SBB Cargo and SBB Cargo International (SBBIN). The international business owns no locos, leasing everything including from Cargo. The opening of the Gotthard base tunnels has had a big effect as SBBIN has leased over 40 multi system Vectrons to allow through operation to/from Germany and Italy. It has returned all its Re4/4 and Re6/6 to Cargo which has allowed Cargo to rationalise its fleet (non-ETCS fitted Re6/6 being stored for example). SBBIN is likely to return its Re484 TRAXX to Cargo and instead lease more ES64F4 from MRCE. The Re484 would go to domestic services, displacing more Re4/4 and Re6/6.
Well... The Re484s are already in the SBB Cargo (Not the International) section brother.
 

Route115?

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Swiss train formations is available at
Checking it, there are some 16 coach 502 trains timetabled between Luzern & Zurich. There are also a few 4-coach 502 trains between Chur & Zurich such as the RE 3465/8 & RE 3473/6, obviously at quiet times.

I see that SBB have just ordered 60 Class 511 (Kiss) 150m / 6 coach units of which 41 are to replace EW4 sets. Existing units are mostly used on S-bahn and some RE trains so I was surprised and expected a further order of Class 502 units used on routes such as St Gallen - Zurich - Bern - Geneve, but their troubled history may have counted against that. The new units will have 2+1 seats in first class. I think that they will be capable of 200km/h but am not certain. The EW4 fleet (including international coaches) is more than 500 vehicles so the order will only replace around half of them and it will be interesting to see which services they are operated on.

EW4 units do not meet modern accessibility standards but there is no reason why they could not be modified or indeed a new vehicle be manufactured for each rake (which is what was done for the first generation of the Zurich S-bahn stock).
 

dm1

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As far as I know the new RABe 511 units are only 160 km/h and are mainly destined for the slower IC and regional services where 200 km/h is not necessary.

That is likely also a reason (apart from the significant issues with the RABDe 502 units), why no further RABDe 502s were ordered (the 200 km/h and WAKO make them much more expensive)

It is unlikely that new low floor coaches will be built for the EW IV as for the S-Bahn - firstly because they are too old for it to be worth it and secondly because they can already be used with IC 2000/ IC 2020 coaches that are already low floor. There was talk of many of the IC 2000 sets being reformed to a mixture of EW IV and IC 2000 for this reason, but as far as I know that idea has mostly been dropped.

In the longer term the aim is for all domestic long distance services to be double deck and for international services to be run with EMUs, in particular the Giruno.
 

Re 4/4

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Anyone know if withdrawal of SBB Re4/4, Re6/6, EWII has started and what coaches in SBB are now replacement trains?

According to Swiss railforums, the EW I/II reserve trains were disbanded in May.
 

dm1

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By disbanded, do you mean "demolished/scrapped" or "deactivated from service"?
"withdrawn" is probably the best word. I don't know whether some of them are still in a siding somewhere, but they are no longer in service and will be scrapped eventually.
 

dm1

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I think a couple of coaches have been handed to SBB Historic, so they will still be around in heritage trains for a while yet.
 

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