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Accountancy discussion

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pemma

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...What's in it for them ?

By that logic if you were an accountant in the early 1990s you would have gone on strike when computers with spreadsheets came in, even if your role was guaranteed as you think change which makes your job easier means you strike.
 
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By that logic if you were an accountant in the early 1990s you would have gone on strike when computers with spreadsheets came in, even if your role was guaranteed as you think change which makes your job easier means you strike.
Accountants have not been eliminated as an occupation by computers.
 
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pemma

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Accountants have not been eliminated as an occupation by computers.

Their role has been streamlined though. Spreadsheets and accounting software do calculations quicker than a person with pen, paper and calculators and accountants having excellent mental arithmetic is less important because of it. I'm sure there would have been accountants who thought computers would take their role completely with only a data entry clerk being required to do the remaining human bits (and probably still are even over 25 years after spreadsheets started to be used).
 
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HH

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Their role has been streamlined though. Spreadsheets and accounting software do calculations quicker than a person with pen, paper and calculators and accountants having excellent mental arithmetic is less important because of it. I'm sure there would have been accountants who thought computers would take their role completely with only a data entry clerk being required to do the remaining human bits (and probably still are even over 25 years after spreadsheets started to be used) so there's comparisons with a guard becoming an OBS even if you can't see them.
Actually, I recall that the most popular degree for Accountants, pre-computers, was History. Further, I have worked with several, older and senior accountants who cannot add 2 and 2 without a calculator. Possibly this accounts for (pardon the pun) some of the ridiculous muck-ups that happen and the Auditors who don't spot anything wrong...
 

pemma

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Actually, I recall that the most popular degree for Accountants, pre-computers, was History. Further, I have worked with several, older and senior accountants who cannot add 2 and 2 without a calculator. Possibly this accounts for (pardon the pun) some of the ridiculous muck-ups that happen and the Auditors who don't spot anything wrong...

Like with any role some companies employ people on the cheap and others employed only the best and pay them well. I spoke to someone a while ago who became an accountant, had no plans to do so and Maths wasn't her strongest subject - it seems accurate data entry and the ability to spot mistakes are more important than the ability to add up in your head or on paper.

Having done A Level Maths myself I'm not sure why you would need to do Maths at university if you wanted to be an accountant - what you do at A Level is already a lot more advanced than what accountants will use on a daily basis.

Having a history degree can also get you the role of Chancellor of the Exchequer, if you know the right people. (It was George Osborne's degree subject!)
 

underbank

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Their role has been streamlined though. Spreadsheets and accounting software do calculations quicker than a person with pen, paper and calculators and accountants having excellent mental arithmetic is less important because of it. I'm sure there would have been accountants who thought computers would take their role completely with only a data entry clerk being required to do the remaining human bits (and probably still are even over 25 years after spreadsheets started to be used) so there's comparisons with a guard becoming an OBS even if you can't see them.

Ironically it's the data entry clerks & book-keepers who are the roles now massively reduced from yesteryear. I don't think accountants ever thought they'd be replaced by computers - more likely waiting with baited breath for better tools with which to do the more interesting aspects of their jobs. With computers, small business owners can do their own book-keeping via software/apps, and we have integration meaning you don't actually need to manually enter figures as you can be linked automatically to your bank accounts, suppliers & customers ledgers, and scan bills/invoices for automatic reading and entry. The need for accountants is as strong as ever, if not moreso, as "real" accountants are strong on data analysis, problem solving, planning etc., and their job never included basic number crunching in the first place - it was data entry clerks and book-keepers who spent their days totting up columns of figures and who are now pretty much absent from businesses. Computerisation, automation, etc makes an accountant more efficient and empowers them to do their job better - it doesn't replace them. Every 10 years or so, some new development comes along which people say threatens the accountant's job, whether it was spreadsheets, online tax returns, making tax digital, or whatever, and every time that happens, I actually get quite excited about how much time it will save me, how much better I can do my job, what new types of work I could move into, etc. The idea of doing the same job for decades and expecting my offspring to be able to do the same too is very outdated.
 

underbank

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Having done A Level Maths myself I'm not sure why you would need to do Maths at university if you wanted to be an accountant - what you do at A Level is already a lot more advanced than what accountants will use on a daily basis.

Having a history degree can also get you the role of Chancellor of the Exchequer, if you know the right people. (It was George Osborne's degree subject!)

A degree in a Maths related subject isn't an entry requirement to become an accountant, nor is a Maths A level for some professional bodies - a good pass at GCSE is enough. History is actually a good fit for accountancy due to the critical thinking, investigative skills, logic etc - history is more about why things happened and what led to other things, rather than rote learning of historical facts/dates etc. It's actually a bit of a myth that being good at maths (or not) would make you a good (or bad) accountant.
 

pemma

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A degree in a Maths related subject isn't an entry requirement to become an accountant, nor is a Maths A level for some professional bodies - a good pass at GCSE is enough. History is actually a good fit for accountancy due to the critical thinking, investigative skills, logic etc - history is more about why things happened and what led to other things, rather than rote learning of historical facts/dates etc. It's actually a bit of a myth that being good at maths (or not) would make you a good (or bad) accountant.

For similar reasons Maths is good for anyone wanting to get in to any sort of programming. Not because you'll likely need to know trigonometry for it but because if you can approach a mathematical problem logically you can approach a programming problem logically.
 

HH

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A degree in a Maths related subject isn't an entry requirement to become an accountant, nor is a Maths A level for some professional bodies - a good pass at GCSE is enough. History is actually a good fit for accountancy due to the critical thinking, investigative skills, logic etc - history is more about why things happened and what led to other things, rather than rote learning of historical facts/dates etc. It's actually a bit of a myth that being good at maths (or not) would make you a good (or bad) accountant.
That's not why History was the most common degree. History used to be what "Media Studies" is today, a 'popular' route to getting a degree. There were simply more History Degrees than Maths ones!

Whether History (or any other academic) degree prepares you for being an accountant is debateable. You could say the same thing about Economics, and yet you have to reach a level at Maths to get an Economics degree and if it's not at a sufficient level it's a BA rather than a BSc. My experience is that Accountants who are weak at Maths often have many good qualities, but I wouldn't want them in charge of my finances. YMMV.
 

pemma

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That's not why History was the most common degree. History used to be what "Media Studies" is today, a 'popular' route to getting a degree. There were simply more History Degrees than Maths ones!

Whether History (or any other academic) degree prepares you for being an accountant is debateable. You could say the same thing about Economics, and yet you have to reach a level at Maths to get an Economics degree and if it's not at a sufficient level it's a BA rather than a BSc. My experience is that Accountants who are weak at Maths often have many good qualities, but I wouldn't want them in charge of my finances. YMMV.

Media Studies isn't that common anymore. After a trend emerged career advisers and teachers tried to persuade those who wanted to go in to media to instead do English if they really wanted to go to university and stressed that a degree is not required to get in to media. I think those who just want to go university just to get a degree do subjects like Business Studies and Psychology these days.

This has gone a bit off-topic now though.
 

underbank

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Whether History (or any other academic) degree prepares you for being an accountant is debateable.

You don't actually need a degree to become an accountant. It just means you have to do more exams from the accountancy body - usually another years' worth. It's actually quicker to qualify as an accountant by starting straight after A levels than by going to Uni for 3 years.
 

HH

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You don't actually need a degree to become an accountant. It just means you have to do more exams from the accountancy body - usually another years' worth. It's actually quicker to qualify as an accountant by starting straight after A levels than by going to Uni for 3 years.
I know; a friend's son is in the process of doing it (and struggling). I'm not sure what your point is though.

P.S. what exams you can skip depends on the degree and the accountancy body (at least last time I looked).

Media Studies isn't that common anymore. After a trend emerged career advisers and teachers tried to persuade those who wanted to go in to media to instead do English if they really wanted to go to university and stressed that a degree is not required to get in to media. I think those who just want to go university just to get a degree do subjects like Business Studies and Psychology these days.

This has gone a bit off-topic now though.
More that it's Red Herring. The point is that popular degrees are often popular because they are seen as easier (rightly or wrongly - I have no personal experience of them).

As an aside, Business Studies could actually be a smart degree if you intended becoming an Accountant due to exam exemptions, but it's not an "Academic" degree. You probably wouldn't be working for KPMG.
 

simonw

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There are three types of accountant: those that can add up, and the rest of us.
 

PeterC

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That's not why History was the most common degree. History used to be what "Media Studies" is today, a 'popular' route to getting a degree. There were simply more History Degrees than Maths ones!

Whether History (or any other academic) degree prepares you for being an accountant is debateable. You could say the same thing about Economics, and yet you have to reach a level at Maths to get an Economics degree and if it's not at a sufficient level it's a BA rather than a BSc. My experience is that Accountants who are weak at Maths often have many good qualities, but I wouldn't want them in charge of my finances. YMMV.
Why would an accountant need to know mathematics? Arithmetic and statistics yes but number theory and differential calculus?
 

HH

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Why would an accountant need to know mathematics? Arithmetic and statistics yes but number theory and differential calculus?
So Mathematics is nothing but differential calculus? Has someone informed all the mathematicians of this fact, including hopping into the Tardis and speaking to Euclid, Pythagoras, Galileo and Newton (etc, etc)?
 

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Accountants don't need mathematics degrees, the maths involved is basic arithmetic which is covered at school level. An eye for detail is more important and being able to handle and process a lot of information from different sources is what you need.

I'm not an accountant though as part of my job i develop e-training courses (written by someone else) for accountancy qualifications (ICB, AAT et cetera).
 

HH

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Accountants don't need mathematics degrees, the maths involved is basic arithmetic which is covered at school level. An eye for detail is more important and being able to handle and process a lot of information from different sources is what you need.

I'm not an accountant though as part of my job i develop e-training courses (written by someone else) for accountancy qualifications (ICB, AAT et cetera).
You are right, that is what they train for.

But if you're building complex models for multi-million pound projects, I'd like you to possess some ability with numbers.
 

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I find it’s the ability to understand why things are done, and how a set of accounts are put together that show a good accountant.
(I’m talking more industry side here not practice)

You certainly don’t need a degree to become an accountant. I’ve worked alongside both uni graduates and those that started at the bottom and to be fair, some were brilliant with some uni graduates being incredibly poor.

A popular route for industry graduates is starting out in audit > financial accountant > financial controller/director.
A lot I’ve worked with that took this route really don’t do so well in SME’s and stick to the bigger corporates.

Auditors, well, let’s just say the bigger firms usually take people fresh off the street and assign them to the audit team. They’re basically given a checklist of what to check without really knowing what they’re looking for or why. Some of the questions I’ve been asked from the big four audit teams about how I’ve accounted for something are laughable. A good one was ‘why have you prepaid that when you haven’t paid the bill....it doesn’t surprise me that firms like carillon went bust. Some were good apples though.

However, the audit ‘partners’ are the ones who are the sharp knives and earn the big money. Some I’ve dealt with are scarily knowledgeable about accounts and finance in general.

To be honest unless you can translate what you’ve learnt in the classroom to the workplace, I find them a waste of time. I’ve spent thousands on the damn things passing most at the first attempt, and whilst it’s good to have on the CV, most of the things I do and the understanding part have been learnt from experience and not in the classroom. My first boss said experience counts a damn sight more than qualifications. And the more time that’s passed the more I agree with that.
 

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You are right, that is what they train for.

But if you're building complex models for multi-million pound projects, I'd like you to possess some ability with numbers.

Well like any walk of life, there are accountants and there are accountants. The vast majority do an important but fairly standard job, there will be exceptions of course.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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It is now 52 years since I obtained my First in Mathematics at Manchester University in 1966, but I chose that subject as I felt the disciplined approach inherent in it would assist me in a career in industry management and I was not wrong in thinking that way.
 

underbank

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Accountants don't need mathematics degrees, the maths involved is basic arithmetic which is covered at school level. An eye for detail is more important and being able to handle and process a lot of information from different sources is what you need.

Have to agree with that. Basic arithmetic is absolutely fine, even for complex models - it's still just number crunching involving nothing more complicated than percentages and pretty basic equations - just huge numbers of simple calculations. I've done huge models of multi-year, multi-department forecasts & budgets incorporating stock movements, factory production models, cash flows, etc - some being hundreds of pages - once you get over the enormity of the task, it's all pretty basic stuff - just a hell of a lot of it. The first few I did were on paper, literally stacks and stacks of A3 multi column analysis paper. They literally took weeks to create (well a few days to create and then weeks to get to balance!). Doing it manually was a fantastic learning curve. It was like all my Christmasses came at once when we bought a computer and Lotus 1-2-3!!

"Accountancy" is a very broad profession. Tax is all about the law for example, so you need attention to detail, excellent literacy skills etc. Auditing needs good analytical skills (i.e. does it make sense!). Book-keeping is pretty basic number crunching. I've worked in industry and practice and I'd say general practice is probably the hardest area to work in as you have to be "all things to all men" - one minute you're number crunching some accounts, the next you're poring over tax legislation, then you're setting up a job costing system and to finish the day, preparing some forecasts - loads of different disciplines in the same day!
 

HH

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Have to agree with that. Basic arithmetic is absolutely fine, even for complex models - it's still just number crunching involving nothing more complicated than percentages and pretty basic equations - just huge numbers of simple calculations.
This is true for lots of financial models. Rail franchise models, however, are just about the most complex ones around, which you find out whenever you need to hire a modeller. It's not just the financial model either - there are performance, crowding, revenue, mileage, etc. - even Passenger Satisfaction - models as well. And that's before we get into the risk modelling, which uses Monte Carlo analysis. Basic Arithmetic doesn't cut the mustard!
 
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