And for those not fluent in German, and not familiar with Hamburg's transport system, would you like to elaborate on that?
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Accrington - New Bus Station 'exorbitant charges'
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And for those not fluent in German, and not familiar with Hamburg's transport system, would you like to elaborate on that?
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Very few given the size of the place, certainly compared with the structure of London's services.
For those not familiar, Schnellbusse are first class (premium fare) express buses. They aren't all *that* fast, but they offer upgraded seating and direct journeys that otherwise would require a change.
Here's the map:
http://www.hvv.de/pdf/plaene/hvv_linienplan_schnellbus.pdf
Though it seems from a bit of Googling there was recently discussion on abolishing them and integrating them into the regular bus network, which would take them a bit closer to the UK approach.
There are also a few regular bus routes into the centre, these largely serve journeys that rail doesn't serve. This includes the old 102 (now Metrobus 5) from Niendorf to the centre, which is a strange mirror of Manchester's Oxford Road (and a former tram route) - and I believe the busiest single number bus route in Europe (as compared to Oxford Road which is the busiest corridor but served by multiple route numbers).
Metrobusse:
http://www.hvv.de/pdf/plaene/hvv_linienplan_metrobus_schem.pdf
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Is that biggest by passenger numbers? I just searched for that route and it looks like it is run by 3-part bendy buses, so it must shift vast loads
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahverkehr_in_Hamburg#Metrobusse
says it runs every 5 minutes, so not spectacularly frequent, but given that they run such long buses the occupancy must be very high. Oxford/Wilmslow Road in Manchester is more frequent than that, but most of the time the buses aren't that full so I would have thought that the Hamburg route is busier. Manchester route 192 has three buses running every 10 minutes as far as Stockport so that would be a single number route that is more frequent, but again I wouldn't say it is crush loaded that much of the time.
TfL route 25 runs every 3-4 minutes over most of the route.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Buses_route_25
says it carried 23.67 million passenger in 2013/14, compared to 11 million for Manchester 192 in 2008, which Stagecoach claimed to be "Britain's busiest bus route"
http://web.archive.org/web/20110927...hgroup.com/scg/media/press/pr2008/2008-08-29/
I also wonder how it compares with Utrecht route 12, which is also a university to city centre bus service. Officially it runs up to 15 times per hour with 3-part bendy buses, but according to this blurb:
http://wiki.ovinnederland.nl/wiki/Lijn_12_Utrecht,_CS_Centrumzijde_-_De_Uithof_UMC
when the bus is full it goes and the next one fills up, meaning that it can run up to 25 buses per hour. However this route is being converted to tram at the moment.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
By passenger numbers, yes. In the late 1990s buses usually crush loaded at most times of day.
Just thinking about the UK, whether a town has a bus station or not seems a matter of local politics rather than the requirements of passengers - bus passengers are thought to be more capable of putting up with standing in the rain and wind and walking halfway across town to make connections than are train passengers.
In towns I know reasonably well
Warrington - has an excellent bus station, close to ONE of the 2 railway stations. The town centre is compact and everywhere is within an easy walk of the bus station, and in any case there are other stops available.
Unfortunately the bus service itself is poor in terms of frequency, and very expensive (most expensive in the UK?)
Widnes - no bus station - but a "pseudo" bus station outside the market and Morrisons, where virtually every bus calls. Rail station is a long way from town and poorly served by buses.
Runcorn - bus stops at Halton Lea shopping centre where you can wait inside the building, and a poorly equipped bus station in the old town centre.
Rail station has bus stops nearby that are well served.
St Helens - a central bus station, close to the rail station.
Swindon - bus station serves out of town services, is close to the train station, and close to Fleming Way which is where urban services call.
Due to be rebuilt.
Southport - no bus or coach station - buses call at various points on Lord St. Train station is central.
Birmingham - to make a cross-town journey involves walking between the various "interchanges" (code for collections of bus stops) scattered round the centre.
Liverpool - nice looking bus station at Liverpool One but not really a great place to wait for a bus in the winter. Generally speaking buses will call at various places on their way to terminate either at Liverpool One or Queen Square. Train stations are centrally located so interchange not a problem.
Some towns have bulldozed their bus stations - others have refurbished them or even built new ones (Slough).
I suggest bus passengers would like
- somewhere warm and sheltered to wait in
- staff around to give some feeling of security and safety
- easy interchange to other buses and to trains
- convenient location for shops and leisure facilities
As with train stations - how much should transport agencies be expected to spend to provide this in an atmosphere where essential services are being cut?
In towns I know reasonably well
Warrington - has an excellent bus station, close to ONE of the 2 railway stations. The town centre is compact and everywhere is within an easy walk of the bus station, and in any case there are other stops available.
Unfortunately the bus service itself is poor in terms of frequency, and very expensive (most expensive in the UK?)
Widnes - no bus station - but a "pseudo" bus station outside the market and Morrisons, where virtually every bus calls. Rail station is a long way from town and poorly served by buses.
Runcorn - bus stops at Halton Lea shopping centre where you can wait inside the building, and a poorly equipped bus station in the old town centre.
Rail station has bus stops nearby that are well served.
St Helens - a central bus station, close to the rail station.
Swindon - bus station serves out of town services, is close to the train station, and close to Fleming Way which is where urban services call.
Due to be rebuilt.
Southport - no bus or coach station - buses call at various points on Lord St. Train station is central.
Birmingham - to make a cross-town journey involves walking between the various "interchanges" (code for collections of bus stops) scattered round the centre.
Liverpool - nice looking bus station at Liverpool One but not really a great place to wait for a bus in the winter. Generally speaking buses will call at various places on their way to terminate either at Liverpool One or Queen Square. Train stations are centrally located so interchange not a problem.
Some towns have bulldozed their bus stations - others have refurbished them or even built new ones (Slough).
I suggest bus passengers would like
- somewhere warm and sheltered to wait in
- staff around to give some feeling of security and safety
- easy interchange to other buses and to trains
- convenient location for shops and leisure facilities
As with train stations - how much should transport agencies be expected to spend to provide this in an atmosphere where essential services are being cut?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think the key factor is the layout of the town. There is little point in having a bus station in a town best served by cross city type buses along the Main Street.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Personally speaking, I see nothing wrong with the existing location in Accrington of the stops outside the market building and have never found any difficulty in making a connectional change there.
Quaint it might well be, but it serves its purpose.
Quaint it might well be, but it serves its purpose.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
There's some fair points being made and it's not an exact science.
Firstly, what is the pattern of bus services. I know of few bus stations (Swansea, Preston, spring to mind and possibly a few others) where high frequency local buses use the main bus station. In most places, such is the frequency, roadside stops are generally used for both practicality (hard to accommodate such movements in bus stations) and also reflecting the shorter periods that passengers need to wait.
This is also helped by the route network with cross town/city routes in many places. However, passenger and non passenger surveys have consistently highlighted that a decent place to wait is a key consideration. We wouldn't think of having a reasonably sized town not having a railway station with reasonable facilities (information provision, toilets, shelter, etc) but seem to be ok with it in the UK especially where we have a greater reliance on inter-urban bus services with wider headways as train services no longer exist.
Also, we have the issue of road networks with some towns have traffic management schemes that scatter services across town centre. Hence, a central point to wait does make sense and in most towns and cities (if not all), the single busiest traffic point is in the centre and usually by a huge margin.
To highlight an example.... Bristol. It has a comprehensive set of city bus routes. These run through the centre of the city (though relatively few serve Temple Meads - generally only those routes that run across the city and use the A4/A37 to the south east (though Clifton and UWE do get specific route extensions). A terminal there could be formed by sacrificing car parks and it is near some of Temple Quay employers and the new arena.
However, it is still in a peripheral location. It is a) at least a 15 and nearer 20 minute walk from Broadmead - a bit shorter to Cabot and bit further to Millennium Square b) it's more than a 5 min extension on the bus reflecting the issues with Bristol's road network (as designed for the car in the 1960s), and c) we're not getting a tram system but instead a set of dedicated busways (not guided).
Therefore, should you wish to commute or visit Bristol from the various dormitory towns like Keynsham, Nailsea, Thornbury or Yate, train travel is an option but it is convoluted. For example, to go from Yate to Bristol is about 45-50 mins on the bus. The train is quicker but to save 5 minutes, a single mode journey would be turned into a three mode journey - two buses and a train in the middle. Sadly that's a pattern replicated across the country; a reflection on our lack of metro and tram networks, a legacy of Victorian train engineers? Very possibly but a fact nonetheless.
Of course, it would be fantastic to have better public transport, metros and trams in our major cities and services at such a frequency as to not need bus stations. However, the reality is that we don't have that. Bristol bus station provides a modern, clean environment that is dry and safe, with cafe and shop facilities, toilets, information etc. Just what you'd expect from modern public transport. Compare that with Cardiff. It had a bus station (now lost to development pending a smaller facility appearing) and where do I catch my bus from....one of five different streets across the city centre!
Regarding Accrington specifically, the market stops were definitely convenient for the main shopping and commercial areas. Did it need a bus station? Possibly? However, will it be an improvement..... I compare the old bus station in Nelson with the new one. Like night and day, almost literally given how dark the old one was!!
There are some really glaring examples of towns that really should have better facilities and they could be co-located with rail stations. Why shouldn't Scarborough not have something akin to Bath's bus station, near to the main shopping streets and next to the rail station?
These things are never binary, black/white, good/bad. There are places that perhaps have bus stations that seem incongruous by their sophistication and scale (e.g. Ossett). However, having spent fair chunks of the last 30 years waiting in the rain for buses, I can vouch for the relief of having decent facilities in which to contemplate life!!
Firstly, what is the pattern of bus services. I know of few bus stations (Swansea, Preston, spring to mind and possibly a few others) where high frequency local buses use the main bus station. In most places, such is the frequency, roadside stops are generally used for both practicality (hard to accommodate such movements in bus stations) and also reflecting the shorter periods that passengers need to wait.
This is also helped by the route network with cross town/city routes in many places. However, passenger and non passenger surveys have consistently highlighted that a decent place to wait is a key consideration. We wouldn't think of having a reasonably sized town not having a railway station with reasonable facilities (information provision, toilets, shelter, etc) but seem to be ok with it in the UK especially where we have a greater reliance on inter-urban bus services with wider headways as train services no longer exist.
Also, we have the issue of road networks with some towns have traffic management schemes that scatter services across town centre. Hence, a central point to wait does make sense and in most towns and cities (if not all), the single busiest traffic point is in the centre and usually by a huge margin.
To highlight an example.... Bristol. It has a comprehensive set of city bus routes. These run through the centre of the city (though relatively few serve Temple Meads - generally only those routes that run across the city and use the A4/A37 to the south east (though Clifton and UWE do get specific route extensions). A terminal there could be formed by sacrificing car parks and it is near some of Temple Quay employers and the new arena.
However, it is still in a peripheral location. It is a) at least a 15 and nearer 20 minute walk from Broadmead - a bit shorter to Cabot and bit further to Millennium Square b) it's more than a 5 min extension on the bus reflecting the issues with Bristol's road network (as designed for the car in the 1960s), and c) we're not getting a tram system but instead a set of dedicated busways (not guided).
Therefore, should you wish to commute or visit Bristol from the various dormitory towns like Keynsham, Nailsea, Thornbury or Yate, train travel is an option but it is convoluted. For example, to go from Yate to Bristol is about 45-50 mins on the bus. The train is quicker but to save 5 minutes, a single mode journey would be turned into a three mode journey - two buses and a train in the middle. Sadly that's a pattern replicated across the country; a reflection on our lack of metro and tram networks, a legacy of Victorian train engineers? Very possibly but a fact nonetheless.
Of course, it would be fantastic to have better public transport, metros and trams in our major cities and services at such a frequency as to not need bus stations. However, the reality is that we don't have that. Bristol bus station provides a modern, clean environment that is dry and safe, with cafe and shop facilities, toilets, information etc. Just what you'd expect from modern public transport. Compare that with Cardiff. It had a bus station (now lost to development pending a smaller facility appearing) and where do I catch my bus from....one of five different streets across the city centre!
Regarding Accrington specifically, the market stops were definitely convenient for the main shopping and commercial areas. Did it need a bus station? Possibly? However, will it be an improvement..... I compare the old bus station in Nelson with the new one. Like night and day, almost literally given how dark the old one was!!
There are some really glaring examples of towns that really should have better facilities and they could be co-located with rail stations. Why shouldn't Scarborough not have something akin to Bath's bus station, near to the main shopping streets and next to the rail station?
These things are never binary, black/white, good/bad. There are places that perhaps have bus stations that seem incongruous by their sophistication and scale (e.g. Ossett). However, having spent fair chunks of the last 30 years waiting in the rain for buses, I can vouch for the relief of having decent facilities in which to contemplate life!!
Leeds is a notable example.
Bus station that most out of town routes use, but hardly any First Leeds buses use it, just a few services (tends to be mostly old WYRCC routes that would have used Vicar Lane bus station until the 1990s)
Almost all First Leeds buses crisis cross the city centre using multiple stops along the way.
The lack of a bus station for long distance routes in York I always feel is a bit of an annoyance, but I suppose there is nowhere for it to go.
Statto
Established Member
St Helens is opposite, all the routes pass through the bus station which means some local routes normally going West to East alignment do a zig zag type route through the Town Centre.
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