Accused of fare dodging...when i was trying to get a monthy season ticket

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moogie72

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On recent commute to manchester picaddilly from Chinley ..an unmanned station, the guard did not attend to sell me a ticket...on getting to picc, i decided to get a monthy season ticket...they cannot sell these on the platform, the G4S security guard would not let me...then procceded to follow me to the virgin counter thrateneing me with manager and police....I said fine ...as i am not a fare dodger Im going to get a monthy ticket....with the argument and stress...and the fact him and sumone in plain clothes were hovering next to me ...i forgot my pin. and i had sent y wife off not knowing she had my wallett..could not get my ticket ...i was annoyed...police man turned up at which point i swore at the 2 g4s.....(transpires one was a manager....which he did not inform me off) .....the police offer was great ...i explained all ...and showed him 6 months of prev season tickets.i always keep my tickets incase i can claim back on expenses..as i work in IT and attend different offices ..and I gave him my address to pass to the g4s guys....I had refused at first as i did not know one was a manager.i did not see any identification and he did not introduce himself as such
.the police man said ...i am happy you are not a fare dodger and let me go. He aslo gave me his number and said if it went anyfurther he would beck me up.

i went out at my first opotunity that day and got my season ticket..i got a 7 day from oxford road as id franky do not want to attend picaddily or use the northern rails service if at all possible....and also lodged a complaint with notheren rail about the confusion of what i can obtain as a consumer...if i canot buy a ticket i require....and the fact that i had no opportunity to get one..untill ended up on the platform...asking for clarification of what i need to do in the furure to avoid this situation.

3 weeks later i got their letter asking me to explain...and the threat of a fine etc.....

i spoke to BTP and the PC who was there...he asked me to tell them to contact him directly to confirm what happened and would stand for me, to confirm i am not a fare dodger....

I wrote a 4 page letter....appologisong for the fact i swore...and full explanation of my journey ans subsequent arrival at the station etc...

I have sent a copy to the PC also....

all a bit of a mess and misunderstanding...i am not a fare dogder...never have been.....I dont ususally travel on there service prefering the transpennine experss to oxford road ....I only used this service as my wife was in college for 3 weeks.....and i though of the monthy seson ticket to avoid the initial issue.....not being able to get one if the guard does not attend....which has happened in the past. i also use a later manchester airport express service.....i have never not been able to get a ticket on the services...

the ques i have seen on platform 1 in the past are very bad....to the point you can be 15 mins late for work....

i am now waiting a responce from northern rail

any thoughts?...obviosly i do not want to be prosecuted....as i have never fare dodged etc

many thanks

Edit (6 June 2012): The outcome was that moogie72 was not prosecuted and was let off with a warning letter.
 
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If BTP are involved, I doubt the Northern Rail Bradford Prosecutions would want to proceed; however you should renew the pass before it runs out, as you technically did travel without a valid ticket. Chinley being unstaffed should not be a get-out clause for not paying for an ordinary ticket at the G4S barrier.

ATOC chose not to allow the sale of Monthly or longer season tickets on Avantix (on board), and I don't think they appreciate the problems this causes.
 

Anvil1984

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As its been pointed out Monthly tickets are not available on the train, weeklys are available so long as you have a valid photocard on you. If you wanted a monthly then technically you would have to buy a single ticket to Manchester followed by a seasom when you get there.
In fairness to the G4S inspectors (and its rare you hear me say that) if a person told you "oh I'm just going to buy it from the ticket office here" how many times will they actually do it plus they were doing there job correctly.The fact that they mightn't have been a manager has no basis on this whatsoever, any member of rail staff have permission to ask your details and as soon as you swore at them they were correct in calling the BTP.

I am not saying it is good customer service that we cannot sell monthlys and annuals on board but technically you were travelling on an out of date season ticket

Also as for the guard coming through how many coaches were on the train, it may have been a ticket machine issue or if there were two trains joined together then they mightnt have been able to get through
 

calc7

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Just to clarify - did you travel from Chinley to Manchester on a Northern-operated train or a TransPennine Express-operated train?
 

hairyhandedfool

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....any thoughts?...
Renew your ticket in advance, same cost, less hassle.

....ATOC chose not to allow the sale of Monthly or longer season tickets on Avantix (on board), and I don't think they appreciate the problems this causes.
Advantix can't sell monthly or longer tickets for a variety of reasons, it's not just because 'ATOC choose not to allow [it]' :roll:
 

island

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ATOC chose not to allow the sale of Monthly or longer season tickets on Avantix (on board), and I don't think they appreciate the problems this causes.
I think that's more a matter of monthly and longer season tickets being registered on an online database, which isn't possible from an Avantix Mobile.

This is somewhat of a lacuna in the rules, because it is perfectly permissible to board at a station without ticketing facilities and buy at your destination if the guard doesn't come through. The rules don't envisage being served by someone on an Avantix Mobile at the destination.
 

junglejames

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As its been pointed out Monthly tickets are not available on the train, weeklys are available so long as you have a valid photocard on you. If you wanted a monthly then technically you would have to buy a single ticket to Manchester followed by a seasom when you get there.
In fairness to the G4S inspectors (and its rare you hear me say that) if a person told you "oh I'm just going to buy it from the ticket office here" how many times will they actually do it plus they were doing there job correctly.The fact that they mightn't have been a manager has no basis on this whatsoever, any member of rail staff have permission to ask your details and as soon as you swore at them they were correct in calling the BTP.

I am not saying it is good customer service that we cannot sell monthlys and annuals on board but technically you were travelling on an out of date season ticket

Also as for the guard coming through how many coaches were on the train, it may have been a ticket machine issue or if there were two trains joined together then they mightnt have been able to get through
Did G4S explain to him nicely that he should buy a single there and then on the platform, and get it refunded later once he brought the season ticket?

If we are to believe he wasnt trying to avoid paying the fare, and going by what we hear about G4S, I think its fair to assume this was not explained to him.
This would have avoided the need for BTP to be called, and it could have ended there and then.
 

causton

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Advantix can't sell monthly or longer tickets for a variety of reasons, it's not just because 'ATOC choose not to allow [it]' :roll:
Which are?

You seem to provide no actual reasons and send into a circular argument, as 'Advantix can't sell monthly or longer tickets' BECAUSE someone chose not to allow it, not just 'they can't it's impossible there is no technology available to do that how would you even do that' :roll:

However, island has posted a reason which I can agree on and that makes sense :) ...rather than just a negative comment on the person posting!
 

moogie72

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Hi

I told the g4s man....i need to get a monthy ticket from the virgin office ...as they cannont offer the facility ...

in the past i have been let through to do this.

he did not say ...you have to buy a single to get off the platform...then get a refund at virgin desk as i get the monthy, which i have been told now asfter talking to another g4s chap about the incident...

he just said . 'you cant you have to get a ticket ' no explanation given....

also i been told they are cracking down on fare dodger usisng this as an excuse to get thru their barrier......i know they are trying to do a job ...some with an excellent manner and others with a an attitude. in fairness they first guy didnt give me attitude ...but was very quick to tell me he would get the police...which i took as a threat .....but did say no problem do what you need to do as i am not dodging i am trying to obtain a ticket that is not available to me.

i looked on the T&C's of national rail and highlighted this to them in the letter that it states...if you cannont get the ticket you require either from starting station ...the guard then you must attend the office at the earliest opportunity to get the one you want...which for me being a monthly was the virgin office....he actually followed me to the office and was stood watching me while i tried to purchase...how would this be deemed as fare dodging...

somthing i hate as i pay all the time .....as you are all aware of some of the tactics used buy regulars on my the service....the worst being having a gmpte travle pass from new mills....and they hide up at the top end of the train as the guard will never reach them due to overcrowding from new mills marple onwards....
 

Deerfold

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On recent commute to manchester picaddilly from Chinley ..an unmanned station, the guard did not attend to sell me a ticket...on getting to picc, i decided to get a monthy season ticket...they cannot sell these on the platform, ....


i went out at my first opotunity that day and got my season ticket..i got a 7 day from oxford road as id franky do not want to attend picaddily or use the northern rails service if at all possible....
Hi - it's a little hard to follow this - I'm a little confused by this bit - why did you get a 7 day ticket when you had been adamant that you wanted a monthly - and indeed this was why you couldn't buy one earlier.
 

moogie72

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as a point....i was really happy that the policeman turned up ....he did a fantastic job....

the 'manager' who did not offer me a salutation to tell me who he was ...or what level he was had no visible ID showing ....hence i refused to give him my address....but was happy to give it to the policman to pass on to them...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi - it's a little hard to follow this - I'm a little confused by this bit - why did you get a 7 day ticket when you had been adamant that you wanted a monthly - and indeed this was why you couldn't buy one earlier.
as i dont really use the 7.55 picc service by northern....it was only that my wife was at college that side of manchester and would be using that service....i usualy use the 8.03 midlands pennine to oxford road....as i work just next to it.

after the issues that morning....i would continue on my normal route...ie not get the same train as my wife....a point of deciding to spend my money on a sevice that i am happy with ....if this is late i get the 8.32 airport train....

thus i went back to my 7 day pass........back inthe day ...prob 18 months back i used the 7.55 alot so bought monthlys from the virgin office...as we have anothe offcie ancoats side of manchester....and i used to have to pay a regular morning IT support visit there...

i think my main point on the whole thing is point blank i am not a fare dodger...

i have read a few threads on here with 'genuine....and not so genuine mistakes'....but i was not making a mistake....i just wanted a monthy ticket....i land in a major station...and the availability is there...before i leave the station premisis....and thats what i was trying to do ....
 

Anvil1984

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I could be wrong here but if you bought a ticket then you wouldnt have had it refunded. The only time this is done is if you have had forgotten your season ticket not merely out of date (and that is at the traon companies discretion). Have I missed something in the NRCoC
 

moogie72

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As its been pointed out Monthly tickets are not available on the train, weeklys are available so long as you have a valid photocard on you. If you wanted a monthly then technically you would have to buy a single ticket to Manchester followed by a seasom when you get there.
In fairness to the G4S inspectors (and its rare you hear me say that) if a person told you "oh I'm just going to buy it from the ticket office here" how many times will they actually do it plus they were doing there job correctly.The fact that they mightn't have been a manager has no basis on this whatsoever, any member of rail staff have permission to ask your details and as soon as you swore at them they were correct in calling the BTP.

I am not saying it is good customer service that we cannot sell monthlys and annuals on board but technically you were travelling on an out of date season ticket

Also as for the guard coming through how many coaches were on the train, it may have been a ticket machine issue or if there were two trains joined together then they mightnt have been able to get through


i activly sat at the rear of the train...as close as i could get to the guard....he did not atttend at all ....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I could be wrong here but if you bought a ticket then you wouldnt have had it refunded. The only time this is done is if you have had forgotten your season ticket not merely out of date (and that is at the traon companies discretion). Have I missed something in the NRCoC
never.....i have tried that on a number of occasions...and been told it was my own faul for forgetting my pass.....no refund available
 

Anvil1984

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Well if you were at the rear of the train you were about a metre from him for the journey, couldnt you have got up and asked him. Sorry if the tones off but just trying to help analze for future. Doubt the guard would intentially not go down what is probablly a "money train" for the depot
 

Deerfold

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as i dont really use the 7.55 picc service by northern....it was only that my wife was at college that side of manchester and would be using that service....i usualy use the 8.03 midlands pennine to oxford road....as i work just next to it.

after the issues that morning....i would continue on my normal route...ie not get the same train as my wife....a point of deciding to spend my money on a sevice that i am happy with ....if this is late i get the 8.32 airport train....

thus i went back to my 7 day pass........back inthe day ...prob 18 months back i used the 7.55 alot so bought monthlys from the virgin office...as we have anothe offcie ancoats side of manchester....and i used to have to pay a regular morning IT support visit there...
Aren't all the tickets from Chinley issued to Manchester Stations (Or CTRLZ) and valid on all operators? And all the operators will receive a share of the fare you pay whichever train you actually use.

Once you get to Piccadilly, presumably you could catch the next train to Oxford Road anyway?

I'm not sure what Midland Pennine is, I'm afraid.
 

moogie72

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i appologised for swearing at the staff...this was done whilst the officer was present...'thanks to this pair of efing idiots going on at me i have messued up my pin number'.....looking back i am gutted on this point...i lost control...i shouldnt have...they are doing a job. the policman did not caution me ....told me to calm down.....hence Iwas very happy he was there a great job of sorting the situation out...

all your comments are great with a bit of hindsight......i just wanted clarification of the g4 guys who did not give me any .....only on going back and talking to others have i found out ways of avoiding the issue....

ie stick to what i know....dont pretend to know what you are doing or what your consumer rights are....after all thats what i am....surley i have a right to buy the ticket i want for the journey i want?...when it was available 10 yards infront of me?..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Aren't all the tickets from Chinley issued to Manchester Stations (Or CTRLZ) and valid on all operators? And all the operators will receive a share of the fare you pay whichever train you actually use.

Once you get to Piccadilly, presumably you could catch the next train to Oxford Road anyway?

I'm not sure what Midland Pennine is, I'm afraid.
no that was the point in changine....call me daft ....but a morning travle and a walk with the wife is nice...as it generally never happens....

i dont know who gets splits of the cash....if i dont like the brand...for what ever reason....i dont get it.......

thats me thinking...after what happened....your not getting anymoney of me!...
 

hairyhandedfool

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Which are?....
...Not really worth going into, given that it adds nothing to the thread and doesn't help the op. I simply felt it was necessary to correct you on that point, I certainly didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

....You seem to provide no actual reasons and send into a circular argument....
I would ask how my comment automatically gets the thread descending into a circular argument, but I feel it is a fruitless question which may only end up putting the thread into a circular argument.

....rather than just a negative comment on the person posting!
It was a comment that had two negative words in it, those being 'can't' and 'not'. I don't think it was meant as 'just a negative comment on a person posting!', whatever that actually means.
 

bb21

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It would be appreciated if you could improve the legibility of your posts somewhat if you want accurate advice from forum members, as it is a little hard to understand. Some people might not bother replying if it takes them extra effort just to figure out what you're trying to say.

as i dont really use the 7.55 picc service by northern....it was only that my wife was at college that side of manchester and would be using that service....i usualy use the 8.03 midlands pennine to oxford road....as i work just next to it.

after the issues that morning....i would continue on my normal route...ie not get the same train as my wife....a point of deciding to spend my money on a sevice that i am happy with ....if this is late i get the 8.32 airport train....
I can understand where you're coming from on this issue however your ticket will be issued to Manchester Stns whether your intended destination is Oxford Road or Piccadilly, so essentially the same ticket. Whether you choose to travel with Transpennine or Northern has no bearing on how the revenue is divided up between the operators. Unfortunately you're not going to impact on how much Northern gets from your season ticket I'm afraid.

thus i went back to my 7 day pass........back inthe day ...prob 18 months back i used the 7.55 alot so bought monthlys from the virgin office...
This still doesn't explain why you bought a weekly season instead of the monthly season which you insisted that you wanted. A monthly season is still going to be cheaper than buying weekly seasons each week.

I assume that you bought a weekly season as that was all you could afford due to insufficient funds? If that is the case, you could have bought a weekly when you realised that you had insufficient funds to buy a monthly at the ticket office in the morning.

as we have anothe offcie ancoats side of manchester....and i used to have to pay a regular morning IT support visit there...
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.

i think my main point on the whole thing is point blank i am not a fare dodger...
No one is saying that you are, however it does not paint a good picture in the mind of G4S staff when your payment failed due to insufficient funds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
i activly sat at the rear of the train...as close as i could get to the guard....he did not atttend at all ....
If the guard does not appear for whatever reason then it is not your fault.

never.....i have tried that on a number of occasions...and been told it was my own faul for forgetting my pass.....no refund available
My understanding is that it is a concession offered by some operators, not all of them.

i appologised for swearing at the staff...this was done whilst the officer was present...
Unfortunately we all have moments like that. Nothing to worry about given that it didn't escalate. I'm sure you've learned from it.

i dont know who gets splits of the cash....if i dont like the brand...for what ever reason....i dont get it.......

thats me thinking...after what happened....your not getting anymoney of me!...
Unfortunately this is not how the railway industry works. Revenue from inter-available products are divided amongst the operators using a pre-set formula. Who you actually travel with has no impact on which company gets what share.
 
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moogie72

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very sorry for the terrible speed typing....I work in IT...so generaly seen as illiterate anyway....:oops:

just really busy...and trying to address all points raised.....and Mac is down at home so could not check tonight....


but i would like to thank you all for you time and efforts to reply
 

moogie72

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my simple explanation for going back to the 7 day from Oxford road is blind stubbourness....

as i only really buy 7 day ones due to my job....as i may have to attend other offices ...leeds and other places...i work for a large media company...

i do get the chance to claim back expenses....which i put in my letter....'why would i fare dodge when i can claim back'

im not aware of how the revnue is split...i always thought who ever you pay gets the cash...i never knew any differend...I do now!....

somtimes say on the the non northern services they offer to sell you a ticket for the next day if you pass running out...i tought they were doing this as it goes in their pocket!
 

Deerfold

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my simple explanation for going back to the 7 day from Oxford road is blind stubbourness....

as i only really buy 7 day ones due to my job....as i may have to attend other offices ...leeds and other places...i work for a large media company...

i do get the chance to claim back expenses....which i put in my letter....'why would i fare dodge when i can claim back'

im not aware of how the revnue is split...i always thought who ever you pay gets the cash...i never knew any differend...I do now!....

somtimes say on the the non northern services they offer to sell you a ticket for the next day if you pass running out...i tought they were doing this as it goes in their pocket!
You're sure you're not deliberately making these hard to read? I think I may give up here.
 

bb21

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somtimes say on the the non northern services they offer to sell you a ticket for the next day if you pass running out...i tought they were doing this as it goes in their pocket!
The guards do get commission from onboard sales, it also ensures that the company gets its revenue, and it saves the passenger the hassle of queueing up the day after, so a win-win-win situation really.
 

moogie72

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You're sure you're not deliberately making these hard to read? I think I may give up here.
Appologies, I will slow down.

Attention to detail when asking for help and advice is crucial. Sorry again.

Its rude of me when your all helping. Just rushing as leaving for the fantastic express to Chinley!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It was not a funding issue on my card, I was frustrated seeing them follow me and acting as if I was dodging thus I miss entered my pin number. It was not a card I generally use. And my wife had my wallet in her bag. If I had not sent her off on her way, I would have paid fine with my normal debit card.

Hence the vent of spleen at them when I came back out of the Virgin office. I just glad the policeman was there to witness me.


To add to the point of why I didn't get a monthly pass when I got my card of my wife at lunch, I told her after what had happened I did not want to go back to Piccadilly station in the morning and would be getting my normal 8.05 train to Oxford Road. Mainly due to whole situation that had occurred. This was documented in my letter, I was let down and frankly embarrassed about the whole situation. I don't like the overcrowding on the 7.55 and the overcrowding on platform 1 on arrival. Given this she decided the same thing comming in to Oxford road with me even though it makes her walk longer.

I mentioned this to BTP when delivering the copy if the letter, their response , with a wry smile was "I don't blame you!'

I am prepared for the worst from NR as have seen some pretty daft attempts at prosecution on their part. I would even attend court in person. But in all honesty I have given up on the stress and worry. Worst things happen at sea! I just feel aggrieved in the first instance with the label "fare dodger' a fine and a criminal record is the result then I will just have to move on in life. I have never broken the law! But giving myself hives, IBS,baldness or angina over the next few months over it would be daft!

Im in the "hope" that the BTP officers input will nip this in the bud though. Maybe in the back of my mind I feel quite negative to the g4 guys at piccadilly though, Xmas time 18 months ago I was pretty much "clothes lined" buy one as he did not read my ticket properly , I complained straight away to a "manager" who told me it was not the first time he had done similar . And the outcome , well it was Christmas and I could not live with myself if he had been sacked over it. I never took it further.
 
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LexyBoy

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I could be wrong here but if you bought a ticket then you wouldnt have had it refunded. The only time this is done is if you have had forgotten your season ticket not merely out of date (and that is at the traon companies discretion). Have I missed something in the NRCoC
If you were unable to buy the desired ticket at the first opportunity then any ticket bought should be exchanged when possible.

I don't see any difference between being sold a single at the gateline and on the train- it should be exchanged for the desired season when possible. It's just a bit more annoying when the ticket office is just round the corner!

 

moogie72

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Having then gone out and purchased at ticket at lunch, did that cover me for the days travel ? It has the valid date on it just a bit later in the day? Which I needed to get home anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you were unable to buy the desired ticket at the first opportunity then any ticket bought should be exchanged when possible.

I don't see any difference between being sold a single at the gateline and on the train- it should be exchanged for the desired season when possible. It's just a bit more annoying when the ticket office is just round the corner!

I know this now, but it was not mentioned to my by the g4s guy, in the past I was always let through to the virgin office, never an issue, a guard once sold me a single that must have been 3 years ago. On the day in question the response was just "you can't join the que" no mention of get a single first then you can leave the platform. As you can imagine due to the lack of a guard on the train it was a massive.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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A season ticket deals in whole days (from midnight) so it would effectively pay for you morning travel, however, it would not give you the right to appeal a penalty fare if you received it earlier in the day (not that you did, but I'm just pointing it out).
 

moogie72

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A season ticket deals in whole days (from midnight) so it would effectively pay for you morning travel, however, it would not give you the right to appeal a penalty fare if you received it earlier in the day (not that you did, but I'm just pointing it out).
Thank you, that is a question answered, thus as I was not offered a penalty fare, I did ask the policeman to ask the g4s guys if this was the case eg I could purchase my ticket later in the day which I totally intended to in order to get home, thus giving me a valid ticket for my journey, they refused and still wanted my details which I gave to the officer to pass on.
 

455driver

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You made the (morning) journey without a valid ticket, your intention to buy one later in the day does not change that fact.
 
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