Accused of fare dodging...when i was trying to get a monthy season ticket

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,838
....I did ask the policeman to ask the g4s guys if this was the case eg I could purchase my ticket later in the day which I totally intended to in order to get home, thus giving me a valid ticket for my journey, they refused and still wanted my details which I gave to the officer to pass on.
You should really have purchased it at your first reasonable opportunity (at the ticket office at Piccadilly) rather than later in the day though.
 

phil8715

Member
Joined
19 Aug 2007
Messages
266
You would think that in 2012 that all ticket machines whether on the station or on a train you should be able to buy any type of ticket ranging from a single right up to an a season ticket renewal.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 

43167

Member
Joined
18 Jan 2010
Messages
1,020
Location
Keighley
Aren't all the tickets from Chinley issued to Manchester Stations (Or CTRLZ) and valid on all operators? And all the operators will receive a share of the fare you pay whichever train you actually use.

Once you get to Piccadilly, presumably you could catch the next train to Oxford Road anyway?

I'm not sure what Midland Pennine is, I'm afraid.
He is on about an East Midlands Trains Nottingham-Liverpool that calls at Chinley in the peak.
 

island

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
10,709
Location
0036
You would think that in 2012 that all ticket machines whether on the station or on a train you should be able to buy any type of ticket ranging from a single right up to an a season ticket renewal.
You can, up to and including a 7-day season.
 

telstarbox

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
4,755
Location
Wennington Crossovers
One reason for not selling monthly tickets on trains is that it could leave the guard carrying a huge amount of cash, which increases the safety/security risk?
 
Last edited:

Chapeltom

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2010
Messages
1,316
Location
Tainan, Taiwan.
Maybe a bit irrelevant but I travel on the 0803 from CLY to Liverpool South Parkway twice a week. It is extremely rare to get to Manchester without the guard coming through.

I hope the situation for the OP, as confusing as it reads is sorted in their favour...
 

junglejames

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2010
Messages
2,069
You should really have purchased it at your first reasonable opportunity (at the ticket office at Piccadilly) rather than later in the day though.
Would be lovely wouldnt it. Unfortunately he couldnt because of G4S hounding him. If he was told what to do correctly, or was allowed through with no trouble, then all would have been fine.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
48,207
Location
Yorkshire
Someone asked Northern for their policy on this matter.

Northern confirm that a monthly ticket can only be purchased from a staffed station, not on board. If you wish to start a monthly season on a Monday you can renew it from 1200 on a Friday.

(The question was asked whether or not a a 7 Day or Day return ticket could be bought on board and exchanged at the ticket office, but this remains unanswered).

My recommendation is to buy Seasons for typically 5-week periods commencing typically on a Monday and finishing on a Friday (taking into account Bank Holidays, annual leave, etc). Depending on convenience, purchase your next monthly season either during your lunch break (when queues will likely be shorter) or before your train home in the evening each Friday that your ticket expires (you may wish to put a reminder in your diary!) This advice assumes a Monday-Friday job is held.
 

Solent&Wessex

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2009
Messages
2,344
We have always been told that should a passenger wish to purchase a monthly season on board, they should purchase a single ticket for the journey they are doing, the amount paid can then be deducted from the cost of a monthly season provided it is purchased as soon as you alight from the train. If you leave the station and want to buy it later this does not count.
 

hairyhandedfool

Established Member
Joined
14 Apr 2008
Messages
8,838
Would be lovely wouldnt it. Unfortunately he couldnt because of G4S hounding him. If he was told what to do correctly, or was allowed through with no trouble, then all would have been fine.
If you read the op, he couldn't pay for a ticket at the 'Virgin counter' because he couldn't remember the pin on the card he had (not the railways fault), and realised at this point his wife had his wallet (not the railways fault). Now I will say the situation could perhaps have been handled better if the op's account of the event is accurate (it is only one side of the story), but that does not take away that he should have bought his ticket there.
 

Deerfold

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
10,412
Location
Yorkshire
If you read the op, he couldn't pay for a ticket at the 'Virgin counter' because he couldn't remember the pin on the card he had (not the railways fault), and realised at this point his wife had his wallet (not the railways fault). Now I will say the situation could perhaps have been handled better if the op's account of the event is accurate (it is only one side of the story), but that does not take away that he should have bought his ticket there.
And I still don't understand why the OP ended up buying a 7 day season when all the hassle was over them wanting a monthly one.
 

Bellwater

Member
Joined
10 Jan 2010
Messages
522
Location
on a 158
One reason for not selling monthly tickets on trains is that it could leave the guard carrying a huge amount of cash, which increases the safety/security risk?
No, its because the TOCs don't want Guards and Ticket Examiners making too much commission.

Most people on morning commuter runs will pay by Card anyway, its easier for them.
 

Greenback

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
9 Aug 2009
Messages
15,370
Location
Llanelli
No, its because the TOCs don't want Guards and Ticket Examiners making too much commission.

Most people on morning commuter runs will pay by Card anyway, its easier for them.
That may be partly true, but it's also a matter of having to record the purchase and update the customer records. In Llanelli for one example, this is still done on paper...
 

metrocammel

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2005
Messages
955
Location
Ashton, Lancashire
No one has mentioned the fact Montly or longer season tickets are issued on plasticised ticket stock. Avantix machines only carry common stock.

The major issue has already been touched upon- the fact all monthly and longer period season details are stored on STDB - the guard would struggle to access the database from his or her Blackberry. If Joe Bloggs was to subsequently lose and attempt to replace his monthly seaon ticket, and find there's no record of it on the database, I'm sure he wouldn't be too pleased.
 

junglejames

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2010
Messages
2,069
If you read the op, he couldn't pay for a ticket at the 'Virgin counter' because he couldn't remember the pin on the card he had (not the railways fault), and realised at this point his wife had his wallet (not the railways fault). Now I will say the situation could perhaps have been handled better if the op's account of the event is accurate (it is only one side of the story), but that does not take away that he should have bought his ticket there.
He stated that the annoyance of having G4S hound him made him forget his wife had his wallet, and also made him forget the pin number. Hence G4S' fault for hounding him. Different people behave differently when being hounded. His was to not think about his wallet when telling her to carry on. Quite understandable.

Basically it seems as though Northern cant confirm what to do in this situation, so he should have been allowed through without any hounding. Someone could easily have gone with him, but no hounding and threatening to call the BTP.
 

moogie72

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
16
TThank you junglejames

I had a call from BTP yesterday they informed me that they had spoke to the g4s site manager, and basicly exacly as you say, I was harassed , he confirimed they are not allowed to touch or threaten the public verbally . Thus the whole situation would have been avoided. Informing me BTP do not like to get involved unless it is a matter of fraud. Not ticketless travel . This is what happened , threatened pretty much instantly with a manager and police then followed across the concourse into the virgin office.

I think we need to move on from the point that I purchased a 7 day ticket later in the day, that was my choice as a consumer and does not relate to the morning incident. Unless you are "trying" to insinuate I never really wanted a monthly in the first place, the whole point in joining the forum was to find out more on my consumer rights not further excuse the situation. Obviously most of you know more on the internals rules , regulations and revenues.
I have been informed you cannot get a criminal record for ticketless travel as it is a private issue , only if you commit fraud eg say you are buying a ticket and run past the virgin office.

The g4s have a staff turnover relative to incidents like this, like a fellow cly passenger mentioned, you never get left ticketless on the 8.03 service to Oxford Road even the g4s chaps there are nice.

Yes I have made a crucial error "thinking" I have a right to leave the platform to buy the monthly I wanted for the 7.55 service. I was instructed by the BTP to leave the station being deemed to not be a fare dodger in any sense. I hope this clears up any confusion that has happened due to my earlier incoherent typing!

Again thank you all for your input and time to respond, and have a great weekend!
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
48,207
Location
Yorkshire
I have been informed you cannot get a criminal record for ticketless travel as it is a private issue
'Informed' by who? They're incorrect.
only if you commit fraud eg say you are buying a ticket and run past the virgin office.
And that isn't fraud, that would be a Regulation of Railways Act Section 5 offence of displaying intent to avoid payment.

What they should have done was charge you a single and inform you that you can get the single exchanged for a Monthly ticket on payment of the difference, if you proceeded immediately to the ticket office.
 

island

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
10,709
Location
0036
I have been informed you cannot get a criminal record for ticketless travel as it is a private issue , only if you commit fraud eg say you are buying a ticket and run past the virgin office.
Just to make matters clear for people who come by this thread from a Google search or otherwise, you have been misinformed in that matter. You can get a criminal record for failing to pay a fare with intent to avoid payment, riding beyond the destination you have paid to with intent to avoid payment, and several other train-related offences.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No one has mentioned the fact Montly or longer season tickets are issued on plasticised ticket stock.
Monthlies are issued on orange stock I think; 01M01D or longer does use special season stock.
 
Last edited:

SickyNicky

Verified Rep - TrainSplit.com
Joined
8 Sep 2010
Messages
2,468
Location
Ledbury
Monthlies are issued on orange stock I think; 01M01D or longer does use special season stock.
Not from Hereford, in my experience - standard orange stock from the standard printer for all the ones I've bought (usually 5 week seasons).
 

snail

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2011
Messages
1,847
Location
t'North
I think we need to move on from the point that I purchased a 7 day ticket later in the day, that was my choice as a consumer and does not relate to the morning incident.
What they should have done was charge you a single and inform you that you can get the single exchanged for a Monthly ticket on payment of the difference, if you proceeded immediately to the ticket office.
This, like so many of these 'I got in trouble for not having a ticket' threads, doesn't add up. I think claiming you needed to go to the ticket office to get a monthly season but ultimately buying a weekly is very relevant. Especially as the G4S staff could have sold you a weekly from their Avantix machines there and then.

The other flaw in your argument is that you say you avoided Piccadilly (a National Rail station) because you didn't want Northern to profit from your travel - but bought a ticket from Oxford Road, which is operated by Northern!

I agree that the G4S lot at Piccadilly tend to act before they think but I also don't think 'the customer is always right'...
 

Indigo2

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
3,636
Location
Reading
I have been informed you cannot get a criminal record for ticketless travel as it is a private issue , only if you commit fraud eg say you are buying a ticket and run past the virgin office.
I think I can see the logic behind this quote although it is a bit open to misinterpretation as-is. I think whoever said it was trying to make the point that although you can be prosecuted for simply not having a ticket, if there is no allegation of intent to avoid payment involved (i.e. you did intend to buy a ticket, but circumstances outside your control prevented you from doing so), it is only a byelaw offence which does not carry the risk of a criminal record.

If on the other hand there is any hint or inkling that you had intent to get away without buying a ticket (such as in the OP's case changing his mind and buying a weekly season later on, which he could have got from the G4S staff) then that would potentially be a Regulation of Railways Act Section 5 offence, which does carry the risk of a criminal record.

It does seem to be very easy to accidentally incriminate yourself in the heat of the moment in these sorts of situations, which can lead to prosecution for the more serious offence...
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
24,467
Location
UK
The other thing I wondered is why there was a problem with the PIN. You get more than one attempt, so having staff make you enter it wrong doesn't mean you suddenly couldn't pay with that method, and have to seek an alternative.

And if you can claim expenses by keeping tickets, why then have all of them in the wallet? And if you have all of your old tickets, where was the railcard kept and how did it get lost?

I do always get suspicious when things don't seemingly add up. Sorry!
 

moogie72

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
16
I find myself repeating myself here. The whole incident would not have happened if i had not been harrassed.

I am simply telling the truth. If ater the way I been treated in the morning I choose to buy a 7 day pass because I will be carrting on in my normal journey...which is Cly to Oxford Road. I only ever intedned to use the 7.55 picc service as my wife was at college that side of town. And due to the no show guard I was not wanting to risk that again. Delayed on Platform one etc trying to get a ticket. So wanted to get a monthly. My wife had a valid ticket, why would i choose not to have one?.

On walking to oxford road at lunch , I choose to get my normal 7 day pass from the machine outside. Why should I get a monthy pass???? I did not intend to use Picaddilly for what ever reason personal to me and the blatant FACT, it is not my ususal destination. I did not HAVE to buy a monthy just to prove a point to G4s did I?...I am a consumer, I have the right to change my mind at will just because I had an altercation does not mean I shoud follow through with my orginal purchase when that would not be nessasey over expense when I can freely get a 7 day pass on the 8.03 service to liverpool as pointed out earlier buy a fellow cly traveler and myself in a few of my replys.


I had scanned in 4 months of previos tickets in my correspondence with Northern all vailid with my pass number on.

This some of the replys are rather robotic with no thought to human reaction to circumstance, an ivory tower point of veiw is all well and good if you are in full knowledge of all the rules and regulations. Hence I came on here for advise offering the truth, and what I have been told buy BTP a Seargent infact.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The other thing I wondered is why there was a problem with the PIN. You get more than one attempt, so having staff make you enter it wrong doesn't mean you suddenly couldn't pay with that method, and have to seek an alternative.

And if you can claim expenses by keeping tickets, why then have all of them in the wallet? And if you have all of your old tickets, where was the railcard kept and how did it get lost?

I do always get suspicious when things don't seemingly add up. Sorry!
Please read the whole thread.Or i have to repeat it again. No i had no other means of paying, my wife had my wallet and had left the scene. The problem with pin?...I dont use the card regularly in fact hardley and was luckily in my bag(bit pointless though I though I knew it but with the situation harrassed and very upset) I failed on it.

I had my railcard....with my historical tickets in my hand...Produced to both partys...G4s and the Policeman, hence the latter confirmed in his view I was not dodging a fare and was happy to tell the g4s staff and also offered his asistance of there was any future comeback. Hence the BTP have been in full view of the facts, and have activly called me back on this . Infact they are a great bunch.
 

Anon Mouse

Established Member
Joined
20 Mar 2011
Messages
1,274
and you swore at the barrier staff which is an offence in itself regardless of the fact you apologized or not. Railway staff do not come to work to be sworn at.

I also don't understand how one min you had no means of payment but the next you were able to buy a weekly season ticket. Also if you were so concerened that the Guard had not came down to check tickets did it not occur to you to find the Guard and ask him for a ticket?

You can't get seasons with a railcard so possesing a railcard is not proof that you were not avoiding payment. Old tickets also do not prove anything, the only thing I see that has been done wrong here is that the barrier staff did not do a Travel Irregularity Report.
 

moogie72

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2012
Messages
16
and you swore at the barrier staff which is an offence in itself regardless of the fact you apologized or not. Railway staff do not come to work to be sworn at.

I also don't understand how one min you had no means of payment but the next you were able to buy a weekly season ticket. Also if you were so concerened that the Guard had not came down to check tickets did it not occur to you to find the Guard and ask him for a ticket?

You can't get seasons with a railcard so possesing a railcard is not proof that you were not avoiding payment. Old tickets also do not prove anything, the only thing I see that has been done wrong here is that the barrier staff did not do a Travel Irregularity Report.
Because I met my wife at luch and got my wallet back. Simple.Yes I activly sat at the rear of the train and waited for the guard. Hi did not appear at any point to sell anyone a ticket. I swore about them, not at them, whist in covenversation to the PC involved. Very out of character, but I was very upset with the situation. I was not cautioned , the PC got me to calm down .
 

Anon Mouse

Established Member
Joined
20 Mar 2011
Messages
1,274
Because I met my wife at luch and got my wallet back. Simple.Yes I activly sat at the rear of the train and waited for the guard. Hi did not appear at any point to sell anyone a ticket. I swore about them, not at them, whist in covenversation to the PC involved. Very out of character, but I was very upset with the situation. I was not cautioned , the PC got me to calm down .
Makes no difference you still swore, and in your original post you said you apologized in your letter for swearing at the staff. Swearing is still unacceptable and offensive no matter who it was directed too. You have just stated you sat at the rear of the train. Every train on that route the conductor needs to open the doors from the rearmost passenger door, so if you sat at rear of train you would have seen the Conductor get out of the cab and had plenty of opportunity to ask to buy a ticket.

Plenty of things don't match up, and your story seems to change ever so slightly over time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top