Additional single ticket - am I entitled to compensation?

[Manchester27]

I travelled to Edinburgh Waverley last Friday from Manchester Piccadilly on a Virgin train and on approach to Edinburgh I was advised by one of the on-board train crew to reserve a seat for Sunday as all services will be extremely busy.

I had used the Trainline App to buy an open return and activated the outward journey on the morning of the Friday. When I got to Edinburgh Waverley I went straight to the LNER ticket office to a reserve a seat. I handed over my phone so one of the staff could check the outward ticket and reserve me a seat, which he very helpfully did.

On Sunday when I boarded the train to return to Manchester Piccadilly, I noticed that my return journey ticket was now greyed out and said 'ticket used'.

When the conductor came he explained that my ticket had been activated on the Friday evening at 20:44 (roughly 5-10 minutes after I arrived in Edinburgh) and they expire after 24 hours. I was then forced to buy a single to Manchester Piccadilly as the return part of my open return Trainline ticket was now void. He explained that people have been screenshotting tickets on their phones to duplicate so there was nothing he could do, despite being understanding.

Being a regular user of the Trainline app, I am adamant I did not activate the return portion of my ticket on Friday as I would have no reason to. I believe one of the LNER staff at Edinburgh might have inadvertently activated it when booking my seat reservation.

Do I have a case here when it comes to refunding the additional single ticket I had to purchase? I've got copies of all the tickets and seat reservations.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I travelled to Edinburgh Waverley last Friday from Manchester Piccadilly on a Virgin train and on approach to Edinburgh I was advised by one of the on-board train crew to reserve a seat for Sunday as all services will be extremely busy.

I had used the Trainline App to buy an open return and activated the outward journey on the morning of the Friday. When I got to Edinburgh Waverley I went straight to the LNER ticket office to a reserve a seat. I handed over my phone so one of the staff could check the outward ticket and reserve me a seat, which he very helpfully did.

On Sunday when I boarded the train to return to Manchester Piccadilly, I noticed that my return journey ticket was now greyed out and said 'ticket used'.

When the conductor came he explained that my ticket had been activated on the Friday evening at 20:44 (roughly 5-10 minutes after I arrived in Edinburgh) and they expire after 24 hours. I was then forced to buy a single to Manchester Piccadilly as the return part of my open return Trainline ticket was now void. He explained that people have been screenshotting tickets on their phones to duplicate so there was nothing he could do, despite being understanding.

Being a regular user of the Trainline app, I am adamant I did not activate the return portion of my ticket on Friday as I would have no reason to. I believe one of the LNER staff at Edinburgh might have inadvertently activated it when booking my seat reservation.

Do I have a case here when it comes to refunding the additional single ticket I had to purchase? I've got copies of all the tickets and seat reservations.

Yes, you are entitled to a refund of the additional single. Trainline have been having many problems recently with e-tickets so I am not surprised they have claimed it was "used".

Perhaps the clerk at the ticket office accidentally entered the ticket's details into their systems in such a way as it is deemed used.

 

[Termy]

Thank you for confirming my belief in never giving someone else my phone while access to apps such as eTickets is open. I was paranoid before, and this just reaffirms my personal security.. XD

 

[robbeech]

You are absolutely entitled to a refund. I was informed by a member of Trainline staff less than a week ago that this issue had been fixed. Unless it has been fixed very recently and you are using an older version of the app then it appears this is a lie.

I am 99% sure that the problem here is not necessarily what you think it is.
I will explain.

With an m ticket on the app you download the ticket and then activate the relevant portion. Generally you’ll make the outward portion in the 1 day as that’s usually the considered validity of it on an off peak ticket. Of course there are exceptions. The return portion however is a little different. For a day return ticket you’d generally activate the return portion before you got the train home and that would be the end of the matter. The problem comes with period returns. These are valid for a month. When you activate the return portion it assumes (incorrectly in some cases and certainly unacceptably in all cases) that you’ll be making the journey in one go on the day that you activate it.
Unfortunately when you get to the end of that day the ticket is marked as used despite actually being useable for the rest of the next month until you have travelled from point B to point A.

So, I can only assume that at some point the return portion has been activated, either by mistake by you, or by mistake for the person in the ticket office, as that was done on Friday evening had you tried to used the ticket Saturday, Sunday, or anytime in the next month which you ticket should be valid you’ll run into this problem. This is a problem that Trainline assures me without doubt only the other day that was fixed.

Your ticket was absolutely valid for travel. It puts the guard on the train in a difficult position of course but I would generally expect them to give the benefit of the doubt. However, as you may not have been aware of all the rules, and not aware of this potential issue that I’m fairly sure has been the cause of your problems then you wouldn’t necessarily have had a defence.

Take photos of the ticket. Take screen shots of the remaining greyed out part of your ticket on the app. Check your method of payment for the transaction, keep and photograph your seat reservation. Email all TOCs involved.

I assume there was a connecting service somewhere onto the Virgin Train, did you change at Preston ?

** please note there is a possibility that something else has happened here but it is showing the signs of the above description **

** I’m in conversation with Trainline about this issue in a slightly indirect way at the moment, if you’d like to pm me I can describe further. It’s worth noting that they’re generally quite good at responding **

 

[Belperpete]

I have to say, the more I learn about these electronic tickets, the less inclined I am to use them. They are supposed to make things easy, but there seems to be so many ways it can go wrong, and leave you with little evidence to back you up. Having to take photos of the ticket etc. could be difficult if you don't have a second phone.

 

[robbeech]

I have to say, the more I learn about these electronic tickets, the less inclined I am to use them. They are supposed to make things easy, but there seems to be so many ways it can go wrong, and leave you with little evidence to back you up. Having to take photos of the ticket etc. could be difficult if you don't have a second phone.

The concept is very good, and for most people who travel out on day one and back either the same day or on (for example) day 17 in its entirety there is little chance of a problem. Thousands of these things get used every day without issue. It’s when something is slightly out of the ordinary that things can go awry. The multiple day thing on Trainline is supposed to be fixed so I’m very very disappointed that it isn’t.

 

[Manchester27]

@robbeech

Thanks for the detailed response.

It's not something I've ever encountered before and I have used open returns over various days before.

I had to change at Carlisle and went to the Virgin ticket desk and they were bewildered too.

They said staff should not have to activate tickets to book seat reservations.

They then said it's not really anything to do with them, but LNER's problem as it happened at Edinburgh.

 

[robbeech]

Is this iOS or Android. There have been known to be significant differences in the past, some of which have caused serious issues with validity.
I’m assuming that you haven’t scanned the ticket on any barriers or no guard was able to scan it on your train due to it being ‘expired’.

 

[Manchester27]

Is this iOS or Android. There have been known to be significant differences in the past, some of which have caused serious issues with validity.
I’m assuming that you haven’t scanned the ticket on any barriers or no guard was able to scan it on your train due to it being ‘expired’.

It's iOS.

The barcode version of the ticket was scanned on the outward journey.

There are no barriers at Edinburgh, nor was there anyone checking tickets so I didn't use the app till I showed the staff member who reserved my seat.

On the return the conductor didn't actually attempt to scan it, he just pointed out it was 'used'.

If he had scanned it, would anything have happened?

 

[robbeech]

How was he able to know it was used?
Was the barcode still visible?

Do we think this might be a case of a mistake by the guard?

 

[Manchester27]

I've attached a screenshot below.

The conductor pointed out it should be orange not grey.

 

[najaB]

Thing is, it says that it's valid until 29 Dmr so...

 

[robbeech]

I must admit whilst I don’t use m tickets much I do use the iOS version of the Trainline app when I do as I find it quite easy to use. I’ve never seen the ticket ‘grey’ before like that. Normally after the day of validity or, historically at least, after the first day of the return portion being activated you’ve been completely unable to access it.

 

[robbeech]

Thing is, it says that it's valid until 29 Dmr so...

I’m assuming that they’ve only half fixed the problem.
The original problem was that the ticket disappeared. Where as now perhaps it just goes grey. This is incorrect and should not be happening. It’s inportant to note that regardless of what a third party app suggests your ticket was valid.

I think there is a combination of this poor implementation by the app and the guard not understanding how to read them.

Does anyone else have any period return mobile tickets they can check this with?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Personally, I would be pursuing this against both TransPennine Express and The Trainline. Both were in the wrong: The Trainline for having an app that claims your ticket has been used when it hasn't; and more substantially TPE for breaching the contract in just about the most material way possible - claiming that no contract (ticket) is held, and tortiously demanding an additional fare, when the fare has already been paid.

It could be said that the fact that The Trainline has mucked up their app is not TPE's problem. But it is. The contract is with TPE, ultimately, with The Trainline merely acting as TPE's agent in issuing the tickets. If TPE do not like this arrangement, they should not be letting e-tickets be sold on their services (although eventually, acceptance of e-tickets will be mandatory across the industry).

It was entirely wrong, both morally and legally, for TPE to charge you anything extra. I would be pursuing a chargeback on the card used, as that is likely to be the quickest and easiest way of resolving this matter.

 

[robbeech]

I think we need to clarify the services used. TPE hasn’t been mentioned directly in to now has it (unless I missed it) but do provide the services between those stations and we know there was a connection made at Carlisle on one leg of the journey.

 

[Manchester27]

My return journey was via Virgin (Edinburgh to Carlisle), I had to buy the additional single, right before Carlisle to the point the transaction had just finished and I had to get off in a hurry.

Carlisle to Manchester Piccadilly was via TPE.

I've followed up with LNER (they've advised 10 working days automatically).

I'll contact Trainline if it's an in-app problem?

 

[robbeech]

Was this a ticket purchased from the guard, I assume it was.

I’d also recommend contacting Virgin West Coast.

 

[najaB]

The Trainline for having an app that claims your ticket has been used when it hasn't...

I rather suspect it had - the LNER ticket office staff probably activated it accidentally. Is it possible that they touched it twice (or whatever you have to do to activate it) thus causing it to show as used?

 

[robbeech]

I rather suspect it had - the LNER ticket office staff probably activated it accidentally. Is it possible that they touched it twice (or whatever you have to do to activate it) thus causing it to show as used?

As far as I’m aware there isn’t a way to do this. Activating the ticket should just allow it to be used. From what I can gather it is the passage of time and the move onto the next calendar day that makes this show as used when clearly it is still valid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I rather suspect it had - the LNER ticket office staff probably activated it accidentally. Is it possible that they touched it twice (or whatever you have to do to activate it) thus causing it to show as used?

That's what I expect they did - activated it by mistake, then it expired overnight. However, absent any Break of Journey restrictions on the return half (which only 8A has, and even then it's debatable as to whether that's a mistake) the return half is valid for a calendar month, so showing it as "used" on day two is plain wrong.

 

[najaB]

...so showing it as "used" on day two is plain wrong.

Indeed. It should say 'Active' or similar.

 

[robbeech]

And THIS is the FIXED version of the trainlines poor implementation. Before I (and likely several others) had fairly in depth discussions on the phone and by email about this it just vanished completely.

I think there’s a combination here of it being a poor method by Trainline and poor understanding by the TOC.

Is there a log of scans on M Tickets the same as there can be with E Tickets?

 

[snail]

I’m assuming that they’ve only half fixed the problem.
The original problem was that the ticket disappeared. Where as now perhaps it just goes grey. This is incorrect and should not be happening. It’s inportant to note that regardless of what a third party app suggests your ticket was valid.

I think there is a combination of this poor implementation by the app and the guard not understanding how to read them.

Does anyone else have any period return mobile tickets they can check this with?

I've had that happen to me with tickets on the Virgin (WC) app. I've activated the return portion and noticed it had greyed out even though it was within the 1 month validity and had not been scanned.

 

[robbeech]

I've had that happen to me with tickets on the Virgin (WC) app. I've activated the return portion and noticed it had greyed out even though it was within the 1 month validity and had not been scanned.

Perhaps all the apps are set up in the same way. Even more reason for staff to understand their workings and be properly trained.

 

[gordonthemoron]

When I activate M Tickets, I always screenshot the barcode and the ticket itself. Only show those to staff and never had a problem, it's quicker than opening the app to show them

 

[robbeech]

When I activate M Tickets, I always screenshot the barcode and the ticket itself. Only show those to staff and never had a problem, it's quicker than opening the app to show them

Whilst that’s not technically valid it should be acceptable as you are the ticket holder. I’m in a battle with a TOC at the moment where I have no evidence other than a financial transaction and the greyed our remains that a ticket existed where by I wish to claim delay repay.

 

[krus_aragon]

When I activate M Tickets, I always screenshot the barcode and the ticket itself. Only show those to staff and never had a problem, it's quicker than opening the app to show them

I'm woefully unfamiliar with railway m-tickets, but I've seen the (for example) Arriva Bus' mobile tickets are shown in-app with a live camera view, presumably to reduce fraud by sending a screenshot of your ticket to your mate before he boards. So that method couldn't work on the bus.

(These bus tickets just get a visual inspection from the driver, and aren't validated by unique barcode or similar means.)

 

[robbeech]

I’m led to believe that there IS a system in place to counteract this but it doesn’t work quite the same.
Having spoken to a good friend and colleague of mine who now works for a company who designs and implements this kind of equipment I’m told that the system could be much more secure, but unfortunately a different method was used and has left this open to a small Amount of abuse, at least for now.

 

[sheff1]

Perhaps all the apps are set up in the same way. Even more reason for staff to understand their workings and be properly trained.

As it is highly unlikely in the current climate that staff will be properly trained, as confirmed in multiple threads, even more reason not to use these m-tickets and stick to paper. You might still get issues with unknowledgeable staff, but they can't claim a paper ticket does not exist if you have just handed it to them.