Adelantes vs Voyagers

[TheWalrus]

Does anyone know the difference in operating costs between the 2, in terms of fuel, maintenance and track access costs?

FGW always tell me that they are quite close, and that a 2+8 HST is about the same as a 180. However XC seem to substitute a Voyager at every opportunity!

So between the 3 trains, how much are their operating costs?

 

[Aictos]

I've used the Grand Central 180s more then once and I've always found them to be comfortable, okay they could have done with being 10 car long rather then 5 car long per unit but that's down to the ROSCO.

 

[222007]

However XC seem to substitute a Voyager at every opportunity!

The Voyagers are paid for so to speak in terms of leasing. The HST's are used on a pay and you use basis therefor from a buisiness point of view it makes sence that voyagers are used (popular as that is)

In terms of the poll the HST is the best thing to come from british Rail i believe the most comfortable train out there. That said the voyagers and 180's are not bad trains

 

[43067]

Sorry you can't beat the ride and silence in a mk3 Hst set. non of that under floor motor for me i'm afraid, that said the GC 180's aren't that bad, never been a fan of the voyager.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Bit harsh to put a HST in with DMU's?

 

[Ivo]

I'd like to know how Voyagers are ahead of Adelantes :?

 

[gordonthemoron]

perhaps because 180s break down more often?

 

[Zoe]

Are you including 222s as part of the Voyager family?

 

[12CSVT]

Will the Voyagers and Adelantes avoid withdrawal before clocking up 35 years continuous service (barring any which are written off in accidents) ? That is the benchmark I would use to compare them with HSTs.

 

[Daimler]

Bit harsh to put a HST in with DMU's?

Not really - the three trains operate on the same 'sort' of routes. It's not the HSTs fault that they're by far preferred!

 

[route:oxford]

Does anyone know the difference in operating costs between the 2, in terms of fuel, maintenance and track access costs?

FGW always tell me that they are quite close, and that a 2+8 HST is about the same as a 180. However XC seem to substitute a Voyager at every opportunity!

So between the 3 trains, how much are their operating costs?

Here are the track access costs...

Class 180 - 70.15p per mile (5 car)
Class 220 - 43.60p per mile (5 car)
Class 221 - 60.45p per mile (5 car)
Class 222 - 52.75p per mile (5 car)
2+8 HST - 108.60p per mile

 

[Peter Sarf]

Here are the track access costs...

Class 180 - 70.15p per mile (5 car)
Class 220 - 43.60p per mile (5 car)
Class 221 - 60.45p per mile (5 car)
Class 222 - 52.75p per mile (5 car)
2+8 HST - 108.60p per mile

Arent 220s 4-car ?. Makes sense as the charge is about 4/5th of the charge of a 222.

Is the 221 price for a unit with the tilt enabled ?. I guess a cross country 221 would be 5/4ths of the price of a 220.

The HST looks expensive until you take account of the number of coaches. I suppose HSTs are 8 coaches vs about 4.5 coaches os a "DMU" as the DMUs all have cabs at the end of the end coaches whereas the HST has 8 complete coaches (minus the guards bit). So £109 x 4.5 / 8 = £0.61 p/mile for 4.5 coaches of HST. Compares favourably to the 180 and the 221 on price.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bit harsh to put a HST in with DMU's?

Harsh on the "DMUs" I hope you mean !.

 

[Aictos]

Arent 220s 4-car ?. Makes sense as the charge is about 4/5th of the charge of a 222.

The HST looks expensive until you take account of the number of coaches. I suppose HSTs are 8 coaches vs about 4.5 coaches os a "DMU" as the DMUs all have cabs at the end of the end coaches whereas the HST has 8 complete coaches (minus the guards bit). So £109 x 4.5 / 8 = £0.61 p/mile for 4.5 coaches of HST. Comparable to the 180.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Harsh on the "DMUs" I hope you mean !.

The 220s are indeed 4 cars, the 221s are both 4 and 5 cars.

 

[Failed Unit]

I would really only compare the modern DMUs myself. Out of the two here I would go for the 180s in terms of passenger comfort. I hear the 222s are the best of the bunch learning from the Voyager mistakes.

I can see any of the modern DEMUs lasting 35 years, but we will see. coaches tend to last longer than units anyway with EMUs lasting longer than DMUs. Maybe in 20 years time oil will be to run them anyway.

 

[mumrar]

220s as a 4-car costs 34.88ppm, and an HST with 7 (as XC operates) costs 102.07ppm, so around THREE times as much in track access charges.

The worst part of the Adelante's design, such as some of the Desiros (I haven't seen them all) is 1st class in the centre. How can business users wanting to do work supposed to concentrate with a stream of people looking for the toilet or somewhere to get a drink/food.

 

[Max]

I've removed the poll as, quite frankly, I can't see it's relevance.

 

[Adam_Harrison]

if i had to choose it would be the 180 but not by far... they're both uncomfortable and first class in a 180 seems just as comfy as standard

 

[LE Greys]

The worst part of the Adelante's design, such as some of the Desiros (I haven't seen them all) is 1st class in the centre. How can business users wanting to do work supposed to concentrate with a stream of people looking for the toilet or somewhere to get a drink/food.

Nearest place to the ticket office at most stations, middle of the platform. Also the safest place to be in a crash, padded out by all the proles at either end. After all, we don't want valuable business travellers getting squashed, do we? :roll:

 

[Anvil1984]

My problem with the 180s is pretty much the same as I had with the Voyagers and thats the layout and coach order, if they just followed the simple first - shop - standard instead of standard-first-shop-standard (180s) or first-standard-shop-standard (XC Voyagers pre shop removal).

It may not seem much but it would increase takings at the shop as the first class ticket holder do enjoy their wine and beers and they wouldnt have to wait for the first class host to trapse half way down the train or nowadays hope the trolley can get through on the Voyagers. Also if there was a staff shortage everyone can be served from one place without delay, simples.

Also it must be annoying on 180s to have the "plebs" I mean people like me waltzing through your first class when your trying to work. Also it may increase the amount of overall seating as I believe theres only just more standard seating on a 180 over a 5 car 221 because of the first class section being quite a bit bigger.

I dont find either train uncomfortable, I'm only 5'10 but I have more problems on the Mallard sets form comfyness and dont start me on 185s.

Reliability is the breaker between the two, at least if I'm booked on a 22x I know I'm almost certain my train is going to show unlike a 180 service

 

[TheWalrus]

I've removed the poll as, quite frankly, I can't see it's relevance.

Well it provoked conversation, isnt that what forums are for??!!

 

[jopsuk]

on 180s, isn't the idea to have a full-carriage worth of 180 without having to split it between carriages? As the driving cars have a cab and a safety zone (being 125mph stock). On the Virgin VHF Voyager layout, the seating cabin (ie what's left once you take out vestibules, toilets the size of Texas, the 1st class galley/bike and luggage area) of the driving cars is about is about 2/3 the size of that in coaches B/H and C/J.

Mindyou, with a wheelchair friendly gangway, there's no reason a toilet HAS to be in the driving car.

 

[tbtc]

I would really only compare the modern DMUs myself. Out of the two here I would go for the 180s in terms of passenger comfort. I hear the 222s are the best of the bunch learning from the Voyager mistakes.

I can see any of the modern DEMUs lasting 35 years, but we will see. coaches tend to last longer than units anyway with EMUs lasting longer than DMUs. Maybe in 20 years time oil will be to run them anyway.

222s are much better. In the way that I know now not to buy any "first generation" of an electronics product (because there'll be something cheaper/ faster/ lighter along a year or two later) I think Virgin shouldn't have bough quite so many Voyagers at first - better to get a few, iron out the design faults and then buy more/longer ones

I say "design faults" - the Voyagers are fine machines mechanically, much better than 180s - just in need of an extra coach or two and some cosmetic improvements internally
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The worst part of the Adelante's design, such as some of the Desiros (I haven't seen them all) is 1st class in the centre. How can business users wanting to do work supposed to concentrate with a stream of people looking for the toilet or somewhere to get a drink/food.

Aren't the First Class coaches in the middle of European trains?

Anyhow, I reckon First Class passengers will be more inconvenienced with the inevitable Adelante break-down

 

[wensley]

As mentioned the layout of a 180 is pure stupidity

Std - First - Std - Shop - Std

This problem is also completely impractical to rectify post-construction and a bit of a pain to say the least.

180s are OK in term of ride and comfort for passengers but suffer from being more cramped than a HST. The space for the buffet is compromised due to them being only 5 cars and the inclusion of the fridge and microwave etc on open view in first doesn't look very good from a passenger's perspective.

In addition the underslung engines add noise and vibration which is particularly bad in the vestibules - I had forgotten how bad it was until a few weeks ago when I traveled 180!!

My other final issue is 180 toilets!!!! They always seem unbearably warm and smelly, ventilation would seem to be an issue, not so on a HST. This could stem from the lack of a window or could be a different problem altogether?!

I think 180s do beat voyagers in terms of general comfort but 22xs seem to be quieter.

Overall though a HST is still the best way to travel

 

[LE Greys]

Dellas were, however, a major step up from the Turbos, although those were a major step down from the MkIIbs they replaced. If they had been taken as that, suburban fast stock extending onto the Cotswold Line, then they would have fitted in as a nice intermediate step between the usual suburban stock and the HSTs. FGW should have stuck with them exclusively for that.

 

[387star]

Never been on one just remember making one in 3D in a FGW family carriage 8 years ago

 

[TomJ93]

222s are much better. In the way that I know now not to buy any "first generation" of an electronics product (because there'll be something cheaper/ faster/ lighter along a year or two later) I think Virgin shouldn't have bough quite so many Voyagers at first - better to get a few, iron out the design faults and then buy more/longer ones

I say "design faults" - the Voyagers are fine machines mechanically, much better than 180s - just in need of an extra coach or two and some cosmetic improvements internally

Agree totally, from a mechanical point of view the 220/1/2 are fine machines, the Meridens with 7 cars are almost perfect, maybe 1st class is a little too big though.