I wouldn't know and didn't claim it to be the case in respect of your thread, it was in response to whether Northern are pushing towards it.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Adlington ( Lancs ) to Manchester Victoria
- Thread starter Karl60
- Start date
- Status
I wouldn't know and didn't claim it to be the case in respect of your thread, it was in response to whether Northern are pushing towards it.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
thejuggler
Member
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2016
- Messages
- 1,186
I agree its a mess.
I boarded a service today at a Northern no ticket office station. Next station has a ticket office, passenger got on and guard happily sold her a ticket after he sold me mine.
No mention from him that she should have purchased before boarding.
I boarded a service today at a Northern no ticket office station. Next station has a ticket office, passenger got on and guard happily sold her a ticket after he sold me mine.
No mention from him that she should have purchased before boarding.
Depends what you mean by "big push". I doubt many people read the posters at stations. On my frequent travels with Northern I don't recall hearing any onboard announcements, except on the west-side electrics, and I have definitely not heard any guard mention the matter when routinely selling tickets to people who have boarded at stations with open booking offices.
The awareness is no doubt there on this forum, but it is not there amongst passengers. I am pretty certain that if you went through a Northern stopper leaving Sheffield asking passengers if it was OK to buy on board a majority would say it was - even amongst those who had bought at the station. Indeed, my answer, reflecting the truth of the day to day situation, would be along the lines of "You should buy before you board but the guard usually comes round selling tickets. If they don't and you haven't got a ticket you could have a problem at the other end." I would certainly not be telling someone it was not OK to buy on board only for the guard to come through 2 minutes later selling tickets without quibble and making me sound silly.
shredder1
Established Member
Thats a strange anology
To be fair you if you didn't board at the station you have no idea whether that ticket office was open and operational. If it was a one person, one machine office it's possible the only staff member phoned in sick or that the machine was out-of-order.
Based on the 2 line displays which have been installed at many stations - where the second line shows all the calling points of the next train, followed by the number of carriages, followed by any other messages, followed by the following departures, followed by the current time - if the next train calls at a considerable number of stations you need to watch it for around 3 minutes to read everything.
Have they? I can't say it has impinged on my consciousness. I must say that since local ticket machines have switched to card only and since none of my credit cards work, I am now more frequently boarding without payment. I can't remember a guard even asking why I didn't have a ticket.
Last edited:
The Parkeon TVMs seem to reject most, if not all, credit cards. Debit cards usually work fine.
Correct me if I'm wrong then, but if Northern's ticket machines only take cards, then nobody should be prosecuted or given any penalty fakes if they board from a station with no manned ticket office and a card-only machine?
All they need to do is have adequate cash to pay their fare if the conductor comes around, or pay at the ticket office at their destination. And if they are alighting at a smaller station then they may well get a free ride if Northern has neither sold them a ticket on board NOR provided means of paying with cash prior to their journey. That's Northern's failure not theirs, since cash is still the basic means of paying for goods and services and should always be taken.
Any comments?
All they need to do is have adequate cash to pay their fare if the conductor comes around, or pay at the ticket office at their destination. And if they are alighting at a smaller station then they may well get a free ride if Northern has neither sold them a ticket on board NOR provided means of paying with cash prior to their journey. That's Northern's failure not theirs, since cash is still the basic means of paying for goods and services and should always be taken.
Any comments?
A passenger cannot legitimately be penalised for failure to pay if they had no opportunity to pay.
shredder1
Established Member
Would a card only facility be considered an opportunity to pay?
Not if you want to pay with cash.
shredder1
Established Member
Well fair enough then, cheers
thejuggler
Member
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2016
- Messages
- 1,186
2 ticket machines and usually 2-4 selling during rush hour, there were also other passengers who had bought tickets prior to baording.
At the opposite end of how this can pan out a colleague was submitting a complaint today after getting a hard time from a guard earlier this week and threatened for not having a ticket.
The station only has a ticket machine and it wasn't working. He was told its up to him to prove it wasn't.
Quite, a barrister acquaintance of mine, who had incurred a DIC driving ban and was using the trains rather more than he was used to, used to completely ignore the card-only TVMs at Blackwater (a penalty fares station) knowing he only had to say his chosen payment method was cash to overcome any issues. He told me he enjoyed playing these games and probably saved himself a fair amount of money.
(I am not defending his actions, or his motivations, but am pointing out how easily "the rules" can be ineffective)
Last edited:
The OP stated his daughter was travelling to Manchester Victoria, and that this is a journey his daughter (and he) make regularly. Even if there are no "buy before you board" posters at Adlington, they've been unavoidable at Victoria for well over a year now, and they are huge, gaudy things that no reasonable person could pretend not to have had the opportunity to read. Many Northern trains have (had?) the posters on also.
Although I'm no lawyer, I do have fairly extensive personal experience of the legal system (ahem... ) and would suggest that the above would be more than enough basis for the Northern prosecutions team to persuade a court that they'd done enough to advertise "buy before you board".
It may be unfair that not everyone who breaks the law is prosecuted for it; it may be unfair if you weren't aware that "buy before you board" is the law; but unfairness doesn't mean that an offence hasn't been committed I'm afraid.
FWIW my advice would be a firm 'pay up', and that your daughter should count herself lucky that a settlement is being offered at all.
Sent from my SM-T555 using Tapatalk
Although I'm no lawyer, I do have fairly extensive personal experience of the legal system (ahem... ) and would suggest that the above would be more than enough basis for the Northern prosecutions team to persuade a court that they'd done enough to advertise "buy before you board".
It may be unfair that not everyone who breaks the law is prosecuted for it; it may be unfair if you weren't aware that "buy before you board" is the law; but unfairness doesn't mean that an offence hasn't been committed I'm afraid.
FWIW my advice would be a firm 'pay up', and that your daughter should count herself lucky that a settlement is being offered at all.
Sent from my SM-T555 using Tapatalk
Silver Cobra
Member
I had a similar situation with regards to TVMs not working when travelling last week in GN-land between Arlesey and Stevenage. Both of the TVMs were out of service, and while Arlesey does have a part-time ticket office which would normally have been open at the time I was travelling (11:45am), the office was closed due to the staff being on holiday. I took pictures of both machines and the closed ticket office with my phone before travelling to Stevenage, where I showed the pictures to the barrier staff (they were who informed me that the Arlesey ticket office was closed due to staff holiday) and was sold an off-peak day return with no quibbles.
While it shouldn't be expected that every passenger has a smart phone or a means of taking pictures on them, maybe it's best if you can to do so, to cover any possible situations like your colleague encountered.
I held off from commenting on this as I knew it be using Adlington station so could take a proper look.
At the entrance there is signage pointing to the other platform for information and tickets. This is partially obscured by a sign directing to replacement bus stops.
The ticket office is clearly visible from the Manchester bound platform. There are no actual individual posters about buying a ticket before travel but there is a station information board which specifies tickets must be bought before travel when the ticket office is open. It also lists the ticket office opening times. However there is no legal requirement on signage as this is not a penalty fares station. There is no TVM so any comments regarding these from previous posters and what payment are accepted are irrelevant.
Northern have ticket sellers at Manchester Victoria from first train until last. They only sell tickets. They also have revenue protection inspectors who won't always be there. Only they can issue Failure to Purchase notices. Unluckily for your daughter they were there on this occasion. You cannot really complain that someone else got away with it as the inspectors travel around a bit like those caught speeding cannot complain that someone got away with it on another day when there were no checks.
Some people have suggested your daughter got charged 80 pounds however it is my understanding that the 80 pounds is only when a FTPN goes unpaid or the inspector sends a travel incident report to the prosecution's unit and they then issue the payment demand for example for a repeat offender or aggrivating factors. Can you confirm how much the FTPN was for?
May I also advise you pay whatever the amount of the FTPN at the earliest opportunity even if you don't agree and then go to your MP. If you look at similar threads you will see how these things can quickly escalate both financially and with criminal implications.
At the entrance there is signage pointing to the other platform for information and tickets. This is partially obscured by a sign directing to replacement bus stops.
The ticket office is clearly visible from the Manchester bound platform. There are no actual individual posters about buying a ticket before travel but there is a station information board which specifies tickets must be bought before travel when the ticket office is open. It also lists the ticket office opening times. However there is no legal requirement on signage as this is not a penalty fares station. There is no TVM so any comments regarding these from previous posters and what payment are accepted are irrelevant.
Northern have ticket sellers at Manchester Victoria from first train until last. They only sell tickets. They also have revenue protection inspectors who won't always be there. Only they can issue Failure to Purchase notices. Unluckily for your daughter they were there on this occasion. You cannot really complain that someone else got away with it as the inspectors travel around a bit like those caught speeding cannot complain that someone got away with it on another day when there were no checks.
Some people have suggested your daughter got charged 80 pounds however it is my understanding that the 80 pounds is only when a FTPN goes unpaid or the inspector sends a travel incident report to the prosecution's unit and they then issue the payment demand for example for a repeat offender or aggrivating factors. Can you confirm how much the FTPN was for?
May I also advise you pay whatever the amount of the FTPN at the earliest opportunity even if you don't agree and then go to your MP. If you look at similar threads you will see how these things can quickly escalate both financially and with criminal implications.
Last edited:
Out of curiosity, how did the staff at Victoria know that your daughter travelled without a ticket (apart from her telling them obviously)? Is there automatic barriers at Victoria?
What I'm getting at is, could they prove beyond reasonable doubt (taking your daughter's confession aside for the moment) that your daughter had travelled without a valid ticket?
What I'm getting at is, could they prove beyond reasonable doubt (taking your daughter's confession aside for the moment) that your daughter had travelled without a valid ticket?
From what's already been posted it states she went to the ticket kiosk before trying to exit the station through the automated barriers.
- Status