Adult on child ticket.

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David

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From the "Public Misconceptions" topic

There's a girl sat opposite who has clearly just been pulled on the barrier for being an adult travelling on a child ticket. She's well spoken, but having a massive moan about what's happened and saying that she doesn't think there's anything the train company man can do, despite the revenue man apparently having mentioned the Magistrates Court.

This has set me off thinking anyway - how many of the travelling public actually know of the laws that cover railway ticketing? It seems this young lady doesn't for sure, saying she only turned 16 7 months ago seems to be her line of 'defence'.

I don't know if it's happening at any other stations, but TPE have put up notices at Scunthorpe station which state that it is an offence to knowingly buy a child ticket if you are aged 16 or over, or buy a child ticket for someone who you know is 16 or older.

I don't know when they were put up (there's several, all at eye level and easy to spot), as yesterday was the first time I've been out for quite a while.

I can only assume that with the poster being put up, there has been an increase in adults travelling on child tickets in recent times, and TPE (at least) are trying to cut down on it.
 
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Ferret

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From the "Public Misconceptions" topic



I don't know if it's happening at any other stations, but TPE have put up notices at Scunthorpe station which state that it is an offence to knowingly buy a child ticket if you are aged 16 or over, or buy a child ticket for someone who you know is 16 or older.

I don't know when they were put up (there's several, all at eye level and easy to spot), as yesterday was the first time I've been out for quite a while.

I can only assume that with the poster being put up, there has been an increase in adults travelling on child tickets in recent times, and TPE (at least) are trying to cut down on it.

Interesting! I wonder how many of us would admit to having done it ourselves.......!

 

Urban Gateline

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I very much agree with the principle that the posters are promoting, people should be punished for knowingly buying a child ticket if they or whoever they buy it for is not elligible to use it.

I haven't seen many older people using child tickets, mostly it is people between 16-25 who claim they are under 16, then it is not so easy to make a judgement as they may look younger/older than they are!

I regularly put a block on child tickets at the barriers outside of school times to catch some people out, but SWT are generally lenient and just refuse entry to those obviously not under 16 whilst those trying to exit the station get a warning or have to buy a new ticket, I've never seen a penalty fare or MG11 being done in these cases, which is a shame as it'd be the better deterrent!

SWT ticket machines do now have a prompt on TVM asking to confirm you're under 16, same as those selecting railcard discounts so people can no longer use the excuse of saying it was a mistake or they didn't know as it makes it quite clear!
 

DaveNewcastle

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Are we sure about this :
. . . . an offence to knowingly buy a child ticket if you are aged 16 or over . . .
That is not an Offence. It might be a convenient reminder that there is an Offence to do with adults travelling on child tickets, but it isn't simply an adult buying them.

But despite that niggle, all publicity of this sort is to be welcome.
 

David

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Sorry, that's probably a mistake on my part, as it was yesterday when I saw the poster, and made the topic today, and couldn't quite remember what it actually said :oops: No beer involved to muddle my mind either! :lol:
 

Oswyntail

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As mentioned in the misconceptions thread, there is a potential area for confusion in the definition of a "Child". I agree, for once, that the information is in the public domain, but, if it is not prominently displayed at the place and time of booking it can be misleading. For a start, if all the material refers to "Child", that could be anyone under 18. In another context, I have come across definitions of "Under 16" as referring to: before the 16th birthday; up to and including the 16th birthday; up to and including Dec 31st of the year in which the 16th birthday occurred. Some define "Child" as being: under 18; Under 16; stuill at school; still in full-time education. There are probably others out there! And it can get silly - a couple of years back, I was ID'd when buying vodka, because my (18 year old) daughter was with me!
 

Michael.Y

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Had a lovely young lady on my train the other day, tried to buy some alcohol. Asked her for ID. As she retrieved her driving licence from her purse, I noticed the tell-tale black bar on her ticket. Knowing the guard was on my shoulder waiting (patiently) to go past my trolley, I challenged her on it, and she ended up having to choose whether to buy the beer or pay the full fare.

Five minutes later, me and the guard walked away both with an extra £2.50 in our kitties!
 

headshot119

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Had a lovely young lady on my train the other day, tried to buy some alcohol. Asked her for ID. As she retrieved her driving licence from her purse, I noticed the tell-tale black bar on her ticket. Knowing the guard was on my shoulder waiting (patiently) to go past my trolley, I challenged her on it, and she ended up having to choose whether to buy the beer or pay the full fare.

Five minutes later, me and the guard walked away both with an extra £2.50 in our kitties!

Like last night on one of the late trains back from Birmingham. Two girls sat at a table drinking some cans.

Guard enters carriage and they hastily try and stuff the cans away.

Then try and get away with buying child tickets. :lol:
 

Michael.Y

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In all seriousness, I used to be very peeved when growing up that at 16 I couldn't drink, smoke, drive, earn the minimum wage etc. yet I was classed as an "adult." I think it should all be 18.
 

flymo

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Interesting! I wonder how many of us would admit to having done it ourselves.......!

Flymo slowly and embarrassingly slides his hand up in the air and turns bright red..:oops::oops:

It was around 1982 when I had just turned 16 and being a litte chap at the time I could easily pass for younger person. No excuse I know but that is who I was back then.

The trip as I remember was a return trip from Newcastle - Penzance buyng two singles. I recall it was £20 from Newcastle - Penzance direct and bought another single Penzance - Newcastle via London for £30. The reason I remember choosing to travel this way is that being a child gave 50% off and a YP railcard gave 34% off. Soon after that I bought a YP railcard and went legit.

Seems strange to think about doing that now nearly 30 years later and could never dream of trying to dodge my fare at all now but back then I really think about it too much.

Sorry!:oops::oops:
 

causton

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Some people got away with it for half a school year or so... in school uniform, buy a child ticket in the morning from a barriered station, barriers always accept child tickets coming in round here, but don't accept them going out.

Travel to an unbarriered station, walk up to school.

On the way back home, get on at the unbarriered station with about 50 other kids, only one stop, no way they would all get checked, get off, barrier staff aren't gonna check them all either, let's say 47/48 of the 50 are under 16 and as they're all in the same school uniform, just open the barriers and wave them all through :P

(Meanwhile the school buses never check for the 'mandatory' SaverCard which obtains half price bus fares, and one time a teacher had to get the school bus home and got a child fare without a second glance from the driver!)
 

A60K

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Flymo slowly and embarrassingly slides his hand up in the air and turns bright red..:oops::oops:

It was around 1982 when I had just turned 16 and being a litte chap at the time I could easily pass for younger person. No excuse I know but that is who I was back then.
Send a cheque for £16.50 to the BRB (Residuary) with this explanation and see if they cash it - I really would be fascinated to find out! If they don't you could try again with the DfT! If neither of them cash it then you could send to the Railway Children charity :)
 

benk1342

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I can only assume that with the poster being put up, there has been an increase in adults travelling on child tickets in recent times, and TPE (at least) are trying to cut down on it.

I see this all the time on the tube and I can't believe the nerve of people breezing through the barriers while the word CHILD flashes on the screen. I guess they learn where to go through barriers that are far enough from gate staff that they won't get caught.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Interesting! I wonder how many of us would admit to having done it ourselves.......!

Hopefully none, though I didn't live here when I was 16. But I can imagine that it is quite a shock and seems very unfair to a newly turned 16 year old whose ticket prices have just doubled (or gone up from 1/2 to 2/3 price if they get the Y-P Railcard I guess).
 
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londonbridge

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In my younger days one of my neighbours kids was still paying child fares on the bus when she was twenty five! She only gave it up when child rate photocards were first introduced.
 

Daniel

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I see this all the time on the tube and I can't believe the nerve of people breezing through the barriers while the word CHILD flashes on the screen. I guess they learn where to go through barriers that are far enough from gate staff that they won't get caught.


It's more that fact that gateline staff on LUL can't issue penalty fares.
 

benk1342

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In my younger days one of my neighbours kids was still paying child fares on the bus when she was twenty five! She only gave it up when child rate photocards were first introduced.

Can someone please explain the mindset of otherwise trustworthy people who think that this is okay? Or are they not otherwise trustworthy? I guess personally I would have a hard time trusting someone who I knew did this.
 

flymo

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Send a cheque for £16.50 to the BRB (Residuary) with this explanation and see if they cash it - I really would be fascinated to find out! If they don't you could try again with the DfT! If neither of them cash it then you could send to the Railway Children charity :)

Fantastic idea, thanks :D

I'll let you know if anything is forthcoming. Not sure what do do but the Railway Children seems like a nice idea.

I kind of over the years regarded it as a kind of a forerunner to the 'delay repay' scheme for all the delays, cancellations etc in BR days.

'honest' Flymo :):)
 

wintonian

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I expect the answer is no and I can't think of a legitimate reason for doing so, but what is the attual by-law offence here? Could someone travel on 2 child tickets asserting that they have paid the correct fare?

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk
 

Malderon

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I bought a YP railcard as soon as I turned 16. Even back then people were very suspicious of child tickets. Before I turned 16 I would regularly be challenged when travelling on, or buying a child ticket, despite being small for my age.

Although I completely understand the reasons for them, barrier blocks on Child (although not for me of course anymore) and Y-P tickets are becoming so annoying to me that if work is paying for the travel I will buy an adult just to avoid the inconvenience. The frustration arriving at peak time at a busy London terminus and trying to catch the attention of a gateline attendent who is busy looking the other way.

I think what annoys me most is that the block is placed on the gateline, but then my ticket is only glanced at at most. What is the point in blocking people at the barriers to stop people travelling on cheap tickets (without railcard or when they are underage) if you then do not actually check the ticket is valid when they show it to you. Again I understand the reasons but the gateline attendant always looks annoyed when I want to come through. If its that annoying take the block off! Rant over - got a bit off topic there!

At times it feels a bit like DRM on software. Those following the rules are the ones that lose out from the inconvenience, and the real fare evaders get away with it.
 

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Are we sure about this : That is not an Offence. It might be a convenient reminder that there is an Offence to do with adults travelling on child tickets, but it isn't simply an adult buying them.

But despite that niggle, all publicity of this sort is to be welcome.

Of course there is the fact that the age of criminal responsibility is 10 years and it is an offence to knowingly avoid payment of a correct fare. (S.5 RRA (1889))

Before anyone jumps on me, I'm not saying that 16 year olds should be prosecuted in a Youth Court for this, but it is a fact that those over 18 years old are regularly prosecuted for 'intent to avoid a fare' when caught using child-rate tickets.

There are Home Office guidelines for dealing with young offenders by alternative means of course
 

142094

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Can someone please explain the mindset of otherwise trustworthy people who think that this is okay? Or are they not otherwise trustworthy? I guess personally I would have a hard time trusting someone who I knew did this.

Quite similar to those who download music illegally from the internet - they see it as not hurting an individual but a big, faceless company who probably wouldn't miss a small amount of revenue.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Quite similar to those who download music illegally from the internet - they see it as not hurting an individual but a big, faceless company who probably wouldn't miss a small amount of revenue.
A line of reasoning which could be substantiated if those people also believed that they were unique and used different reasoning from everybody else. And if that belief was true.
But as they are not unique, then the "small amount of revenue" when multiplied by ALL users, becomes ALL the revenue that the "big, faceless company" generates, thereby depriving it of the necessary revenue to continue doing what it does.

The same error of proportion applies whether its rail travel, music or stealing from shops. Interestingly, it also applies in reverse (i.e. a supplier mistakenly thinking they are unique and can over-charge customers)
 

142094

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A line of reasoning which could be substantiated if those people also believed that they were unique and used different reasoning from everybody else. And if that belief was true.
But as they are not unique, then the "small amount of revenue" when multiplied by ALL users, becomes ALL the revenue that the "big, faceless company" generates, thereby depriving it of the necessary revenue to continue doing what it does.

Exactly, although very rarely do those who attempt the above think about what the combined effect is when everyone else does it.
 
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