advance tickets _ proportion of no shows

[Zoe]

two people can't travel on the same Advance

It prevents anyone reserving seats that they don't have tickets for though or trying to use the same ticket to reserve more than one seat.

 

[Flamingo]

So you'd call the BTP then and have it taken to court?

If they refused to move their stuff and allow someone else to use the seat, then there is a by-law about "interfering with the comfort of fellow passengers", but it would probably be a public order offence.

Although if they wound me up enough, it would just be a phone-call to control to say I was too stressed by the entire thing to take the train any further, could they have a taxi waiting for me at the next station, as I was not in a fit condition to continue my safety-critical role any further.

Then they could see how many seats they could occupy on the next train. I might make a PA announcement to identify them to the other passengers on the train as well.

edited to add: As I've said to passengers before now "Don't try to out-attitude me, my ability to bugger you about is infinitely greater than your ability to bugger me about!"

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It prevents anyone reserving seats that they don't have tickets for though or trying to use the same ticket to reserve more than one seat.

Can you reserve a seat without the ticket? If not, your first point is irrelevant. And surely if they have bought an Advance then a reservation would have been provided as the reservation makes the ticket valid.

 

[Zoe]

Can you reserve a seat without the ticket?

You used to be able to but it doesn't seem to be allowed these days.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You used to be able to but it doesn't seem to be allowed these days.

So your first point is irrelevant then. And surely an Advance automatically comes with a reservation, so a ticket clerk may be suspicious if someone presents an Advance asking for a reservation.

 

[Zoe]

So your first point is irrelevant then.

No it is not, if you can't reserve a seat without a ticket then it's the condition above that gives you the right to reserve one when you buy the ticket.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You said:

It prevents anyone reserving seats that they don't have tickets for though

Which is now irrelevant, as you have then said that people can't reserve a seat without the ticket so they have to have the ticket at the ticket office to reserve it.

 

[rmt-driver]

In my opinion, the PER PERSON is the operative bit of it. And guess what, I'm the guard, my opinion is the only one that counts.

What a lovely attitude...

 

[Zoe]

Which is now irrelevant, as you have then said that people can't reserve a seat without the ticket so they have to have the ticket at the ticket office to reserve it.

There has to be specific conditions allowing reservations in order to prevent people reserving seats without them. These conditions have now been set and it also has to be clear how many seats the ticket entitles you to reserve. This is done with the above condition.

 

[rmt-driver]

The rule quoted about one reservation per ticket is it seems to stop one person reserving two seats with one ticket.. I.E. booking an adult open single with a seat online, then taking just the ticket to a ticket office claiming there is no reservation, and reserving another seat.

If someone purchases TWO adult open single tickets and reserves TWO seats side by side... I can't see where the conditions of carriage say both these seats can not be used by the person who has LAWFULLY purchased and LAWFULLY reserved them !

 

[ralphchadkirk]

There has to be specific conditions allowing reservations in order to prevent people reserving seats without them. These conditions have now been set and it also has to be clear how many seats the ticket entitles you to reserve. This is done with the above condition.

One reservation per person. That is the condition.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't see where the conditions of carriage say both these seats can not be used by the person who has LAWFULLY purchased and LAWFULLY reserved them !

They don't purchase seats, they purchase the journey. Seat reservations are free(?).

 

[Zoe]

One reservation per person. That is the condition.

For THIS TICKET. It doesn't say anything about not allowing you to use ANOTHER TICKET to get another reservation.

 

[rmt-driver]

One reservation per person. That is the condition.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One reservation per person per TICKET !!!!

 

[trainophile]

So your first point is irrelevant then. And surely an Advance automatically comes with a reservation, so a ticket clerk may be suspicious if someone presents an Advance asking for a reservation.

Nope, not on ATW. Also I have noticed that my connecting ticket on the same journey via LM now no longer gives a coach and seat number either. Whether that is because the ATW part of the booking didn't I have no idea.

I regularly sit in "Coach * Seat ***".

 

[Flamingo]

What a lovely attitude...

Says a driver :roll:?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The rule quoted about one reservation per ticket is it seems to stop one person reserving two seats with one ticket.. I.E. booking an adult open single with a seat online, then taking just the ticket to a ticket office claiming there is no reservation, and reserving another seat.

If someone purchases TWO adult open single tickets and reserves TWO seats side by side... I can't see where the conditions of carriage say both these seats can not be used by the person who has LAWFULLY purchased and LAWFULLY reserved them !

You can use another ticket to get another reservation, nothing in the rules to say that you can't. Show me anywhere where it says that if nobody turns up to occupy that seat, that the person who is holding the reservation is entitled to two seats.

 

[Failed Unit]

I read somewhere that some business travellers routinely book more than one return Advance ticket, as it still works out cheaper than an open return if their meeting runs on or something else delays them.

Yep, I often do that myself, edge the bets and all that!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you were to buy two advance fares on the same train with reservations next to each other, could you use this to stop anyone sitting next to you?

I often buy my under 5 year old a ticket, some people standing don't like this but the staff on the train have no problem with it.

 

[Flamingo]

Yep, I often do that myself, edge the bets and all that!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I often buy my under 5 year old a ticket, some people standing don't like this but the staff on the train have no problem with it.

Fair enough, you have bought them a ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Can I ask that the bickering in this thread is calmed down a bit please?

I often buy my under 5 year old a ticket, some people standing don't like this but the staff on the train have no problem with it.

That is perfectly legitimate, and I'd encourage anyone with an under 5 who doesn't want them on their lap the whole time to do so. That child is perfectly entitled to a seat, providing a ticket (& reservation - where applicable) is held.

Zoe - I am not sure I agree with the idea that a passenger can deny me a seat because they hold a reservation for that spare seat that they have no intention of using. That seems unreasonable to me. On the other hand, for the Caledonian Sleeper, it does seem a bit more reasonable for someone travelling alone to have 2 x bargain berths to gain sole occupancy of a cabin, because of the nature of a cabin and the privacy it offers. But for a normal train, it really doesn't seem on.

Although something I have experienced that goes against that is I have heard of two occasions where someone refused to move bags from seats, the FGW guard in both cases said that if the passenger didn't move the bags he'd sell them a ticket for the occupancy of the seat. I am unsure if this was legitimate but I think it was just a ploy to get the person to move their bags, as they didn't want to pay extra so when this threat was made, they moved the bags! These incidents were a few years ago now.

 

[Failed Unit]

If someone has purchased two Advance tickets (reserved two seats that are next to each other, how on earth can anyone morally force them to give up one of those two seats.
If someone is willing to pay for two seats, that makes them entitled to two seats in my view.
Rather like someone purchasing two identical meals, intending to eat both and then the buffet car manager coming to take one back because the buffet is short of meals

But when you think about the cost of doing so they would probably be cheaper going first class...

 

[SS4]

But when you think about the cost of doing so they would probably be cheaper going first class...

Not always, the cheapest advances on Virgin are £4.95 (avec railcard) whereas First Advances are £14.50 (again, with railcard). I don't see it being entirely implausible that one would book 12 weeks in advance when going this.

 

[Failed Unit]

Not always, the cheapest advances on Virgin are £4.95 (avec railcard) whereas First Advances are £14.50 (again, with railcard). I don't see it being entirely implausible that one would book 12 weeks in advance when going this.

So that is £5 worth of food you have to eat to make up the difference.

 

[SS4]

So that is £5 worth of food you have to eat to make up the difference.

You do get to use the first class lounge though since I quoted Virgin [specifically from BHM-EUS] so it wouldn't be too hard to drink enough tea to render the toilet as your second seat anyway

 

[Flamingo]

Although something I have experienced that goes against that is I have heard of two occasions where someone refused to move bags from seats, the FGW guard in both cases said that if the passenger didn't move the bags he'd sell them a ticket for the occupancy of the seat. I am unsure if this was legitimate but I think it was just a ploy to get the person to move their bags, as they didn't want to pay extra so when this threat was made, they moved the bags! These incidents were a few years ago now.

It's not legitimate, IMHO, which is why I don't do it (and haven't mentioned it in this thread). I would have them (or their luggage) removed at the next stop, though.

 

[sheff1]

Although something I have experienced that goes against that is I have heard of two occasions where someone refused to move bags from seats, the FGW guard in both cases said that if the passenger didn't move the bags he'd sell them a ticket for the occupancy of the seat. I am unsure if this was legitimate but I think it was just a ploy to get the person to move their bags, as they didn't want to pay extra so when this threat was made, they moved the bags! These incidents were a few years ago now.

I have also heard a guard say this. Now, if the passenger had already bought two tickets and reserved a seat with each one .... bluff called .

 

[Flamingo]

A ticket doesn't guarantee a seat, so I don't see how buying one will legitimise having luggage blocking a seat. However, depending on the size and quantity of the luggage, we are entitled to charge for it, regardless of if it is on a seat or not.

 

[Zoe]

However, depending on the size and quantity of the luggage, we are entitled to charge for it, regardless of if it is on a seat or not.

I have never seen anyone excessed for luggage but I understand you are only allowed 2 suitcases and 1 briefcase?

 

[rmt-driver]

I have never seen anyone excessed for luggage but I understand you are only allowed 2 suitcases and 1 briefcase?

Would have to be a very severe jobsworth for charging for "excess" luggage, surely .

 

[Flamingo]

Depends on the scenario, the passenger attitude, and the quantity. It is covered for in the NRCoC, however.

Condition 46 allows you to take small items of Luggage and Articles into the
passenger accommodation of a train. Small items are considered to be those with
dimensions not exceeding 90 x 70 x 30 cm with a weight not exceeding 50kg. Each
passenger (aged 5 years or more) may take three small items into a train free of
charge, however, the dimensions of only two of these items may exceed 55 x 40 x 20 cm.
3. A fee not exceeding half the adult fare for your journey is charged for:
• each additional item in excess of a passenger’s free allowance; and
• any item with dimensions exceeding 90 x 70 x 30 cm.
4. A Train Company may refuse to accept Luggage or Articles in passenger
accommodation if any of the following apply:
• the restrictions listed in Condition 49 apply;
• the item would obstruct doorways, gangways or corridors;
• the dimensions of the item exceed 100 x 100 x 100 cm; or
• in the opinion of the Train Company’s staff, the item is only suitable to be
conveyed in a luggage van.

 

[rmt-driver]

Depends on the scenario, the passenger attitude, and the quantity. It is covered for in the NRCoC, however.

I suppose the best way to look at it would be if the passenger is carrying an amount of luggage that might "delay" the service. I.E too much for them to handle, meaning they are unable to move it from the platform to train (and vice versa) in the given dwell time, causing a delay to the service. In this case scenario I would advise an alternative method of transport.

 

[SS4]

I have never seen anyone excessed for luggage but I understand you are only allowed 2 suitcases and 1 briefcase?

It is not defined although Appendix B of the NRCOC does give dimensions and masses (the physicist inside me refuses to say weight instead of mass)

It goes onto say that

3. A fee not exceeding half the adult fare for your journey is charged for:

• each additional item in excess of a passenger’s free allowance; and
• any item with dimensions exceeding 90 x 70 x 30 cm.

That is not to say luggage can be refused:

Any Train Company may...refuse to accept an item of luggage, an article...in the
opinion of its staff:...

(a) it may cause injury, inconvenience or a nuisance or it may cause damage to property;
(b) there is not enough room for it;
(c) the loading or unloading may cause delay to trains; or
(d) it is not carried or packaged in a suitable manner.

(Edited to make easier formatting)

Out of interest, what is the "Adult fare" as defined here? Is it half the anytime fare or what the passenger paid?


edit: I love my PDF reader too much to not copy out chunks as text