Advance tickets and splitting - question

[Lee_Again]

As I understand it you can use two tickets for a single trip provided that the train stops at the station where the split occurs. I realise there are some exceptions to this rule involving seasons and zone tickets but this question does not involve that situation.

I also understand that if I miss a connection (when using multiple Advance tickets) then I can use the next available service to complete my journey.

So here is my questions (the route is made up, I'm more interested in the principal)...

I have three Advance tickets. Edinburgh>Newcastle>Doncaster>Kings Cross. I am booked on to a XC service from Edinburgh to Newcaste where I change on to a direct EC service to Kings Cross that is booked to stop at Doncaster.

The XC is late and I miss my connection at Newcastle (presume that I followed the minimum connection time rule). However, the only trains to Kings Cross for the rest of the day are not booked to call at Doncaster. Would I be allowed to travel on, for example, a Newcastle, York, Kings Cross train?

Thank you in advance..
Lee

 

[AlterEgo]

The XC is late and I miss my connections at Newcastle (presume that I followed the minimum connection time rule). However, the only trains to Kings Cross for the rest of the day are not booked to call at Doncaster. Would I be allowed to travel on, for example, a Newcastle, York, Kings Cross train?

The book says no. Common sense says yes or maybe. I would advise against this particular split because if the TOCs play by the book you are going to have some serious problems.

 

[yorkie]

The XC is late and I miss my connection at Newcastle (presume that I followed the minimum connection time rule). However, the only trains to Kings Cross for the rest of the day are not booked to call at Doncaster. Would I be allowed to travel on, for example, a Newcastle, York, Kings Cross train?

The scenario you propose would never happen, as although there is an hourly fast service not calling at Doncaster, there are regular services calling at Doncaster (sometimes it is advantageous to change at York onto a York - London stopper), and the last train of the day heading south always calls at Doncaster. They could in theory force you to change off the fast train at York onto one that calls at Doncaster, if this occurred then it would increase the payment under Delay Repay, however I very much doubt that would happen.

 

[Lee_Again]

The scenario you propose would never happen, as although there is an hourly fast service not calling at Doncaster, there are regular services calling at Doncaster (sometimes it is advantageous to change at York onto a York - London stopper), and the last train of the day heading south always calls at Doncaster. They could in theory force you to change off the fast train at York onto one that calls at Doncaster, if this occurred then it would increase the payment under Delay Repay, however I very much doubt that would happen.

The example given was made up. I did indicate that in the question. I'm interested in the ruling, not this particular route. There are numerous examples of where splitting could take place at a stop where there is only a limited service.

Let's prestend that the Newcastle service I booked stops at Thirst, and is the only train that day to do so (that continues to London). Once I'd missed my service every other service runs through. What would you do in that situation?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The book says no.

Are you able to quote the section? I'm not doubting you (since I don't know) but I would like to review the wording.

 

[yorkie]

The example given was made up. I did indicate that in the question. I'm interested in the ruling, not this particular route. There are numerous examples of where splitting could take place at a stop where there is only a limited service.

Well, it's one journey, and they have to get you there! They can delay you by making you stick to the terms but if they did it to such an extent that an overnight stay was required it would cost them more in the long run! My concern would be that TOC 'B' may not care so much if it is TOC 'A' picking up the bill.

Are you able to quote the section?

NRCoC Condition 19 presumably.

 

[AlterEgo]

NRCoC Condition 19 presumably.

Yes.

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).

If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the tickets was valid.

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:

(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days

and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and Britrail passes.

Note that there is no written exception or easing of these conditions if a delay renders you unable to comply with the Condition in full. That was my point.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

By the book I would have to agree with Alterego, regardless of it being an Advance or another single/return ticket, however, the TOC may be willing to let you travel on a service that didn't stop if it saved them a hotel or taxi bill.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

I agree, according to the conditions the train you're on must call where you change tickets. In the Thirsk example you would have to get the next slow train south, though you may find discretion.

 

[LexyBoy]

I would think (hope) that in this case EC would send you on the next fast train - the alternative would be for them to shell out for alternative transport in order for you to stop at the changeover station.

It would probably be a bit more problematic if the tickets were for different operators e.g. EC Newcastle-Doncaster and FHT (say) Doncaster-London. Sadly in this case it's more likely that EC would honour their ticket and then the second TOC would have to sort out your onward travel. (Not meant as indicative of EC's behaviour - I'm not so familiar with them - feel free to substitute any other TOC).

 

[Lee_Again]

Thank you, particuarly yorkie and AlterEgo, for your prompt responses.

It appears the 'rules' are clear. Not sure I agree with them, afterall, it wasn't my fault the first train was late, but equally, it wasn't the second TOC fault either.

Would be nice if there was a written easement in the case of late running/missed connections. Maybe one day :roll:

Lee

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but if your XC service is late, why should EC see that as any different to you turning up late at the station?

If you've got a XC Advance ticket EDB-NCL, with you then intending to use NCL-DON-KGX tickets, the XC service isn't, technically, a connection.

Wrong. It is treated as one journey. Passengers must not be penalized for travelling on a combination of tickets. Provided he's left the minimum interchange time at Newcastle, he will be covered in the event of a delay.

Search "Advance Fares FAQs" for more info.

 

[marks87]

Well I'll be damned. I honestly never knew that. I'd always bought advance tickets on the basis of "if I miss this, I'm screwed" and considered a connecting service as a risk.

I'm assuming that you need to keep the tickets from the late-running service as a way of proving that you were indeed held up and didn't just arrive late at the station?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The FAQs were written up and posted in the manual earlier this year. It is always wise to prepare for the worst though.

Guards should be able to check other late running services, but you could always get the tickets endorsed by staff.

 

[button_boxer]

Well I'll be damned. I honestly never knew that. I'd always bought advance tickets on the basis of "if I miss this, I'm screwed" and considered a connecting service as a risk.

As, I suspect, do most passengers, who therefore book the apparently "safer" through advance ticket rather than the cheaper split. And the TOCs have no incentive to suggest they do otherwise.

 

[RYS]

Well I'll be damned. I honestly never knew that. I'd always bought advance tickets on the basis of "if I miss this, I'm screwed" and considered a connecting service as a risk.

Same here! Where has this myth been coming from all these years then? This is going to save me a lot of money from now on.

 

[Lee_Again]

Same here! Where has this myth been coming from all these years then? This is going to save me a lot of money from now on.

But remember, as my original question was intending to find out, if you miss a through train that stops at you split station, how long is it until the next through train stops at your split?

 

[bb21]

But remember, as my original question was intending to find out, if you miss a through train that stops at you split station, how long is it until the next through train stops at your split?

Might not be till the next day, or if you split at Denton, not until next week.

Of course it would be unreasonable for the TOC to expect you to wait until the next day without providing accommodation.

 

[yorkie]

Same here! Where has this myth been coming from all these years then? This is going to save me a lot of money from now on.

I don't know but I've consistently been pointing out the Advance T&Cs and Condition 19 of the NRCoC for years! We got clarification from East Coast over a year ago, and an infamous "desperate" guard based at Newcastle made the mistake of not reading the Pricing & Ticketing Updates (PTUs) and his UPFN issued to zzip00 in August 2010 was overturned, shortly after that the PTUs got leaked into the public domain. However a few months later, the guidance was published in The Manual, which was then posted here, and since then I (and others) have been able to re-assure passengers without any doubt.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I must add that I believe that Yorkie is quite correct in his analysis, though perhaps I can add 2 further details.

1. Historically, the question of one TOC's obligations to convey a passenger who was delayed by a connecting service simply had not been clarified to such an adequate degree that advisors were confident in assuring a prospective passenger that they might not be challenged (or refused carriage). The wording of S.19 is open to different interpretations based on "journey" not being a defined term. Perhaps that was a contributory factor to some reluctance to give such positive assurance, and ultimately to passengers suspecting that TOCs did not have that obligation.

2. Not all rail travel which incurs a delay will assure the passenger of onward travel on a later journey. The OP's hypothetical journey included Newcastle and London. Any delay on the T&W Metro or London Underground may not qualify as a delay incurred on a connecting service for the purpose of assuring onward travel on a later service in the terms in which the 'clarification' from ATOC was worded. That is not to say that delays on those networks will necessarily lead to a refusal to honour an Advance ticket on a later service, but that this situation appears to remain undefined (and I look forward to anyone correcting me with a robust definition which does clarify TOCs' obligations in these circumstances).